Correct words of Patriarchs

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I was going to bring up many of the points dawei has made above, but since he has done so already I want to point out that in doing so, he is not taking sides, but acting to enforce the principle of Egalitarianism which is considered to be a fundamental principle to the Dao Bums, and to make this clear I will quote from one of the first posts pinned in the Rules and Use Subforum:
 

TDBs exists in the general field of "The Search for Truth".
The Usual organized formats (schools) for The Search tend to have:
    1. focus exclusively within a school
    2. hierachical learning structure, hierachical ability to speak
TheDàoBums' founding principles form a deliberate cultural counter-point:
    1. run independently of any school, which allows a more eclectic atmosphere
    2. conversational learning, egalitarian ability for members to speak
TDBs' social format is "cafeteria", not "classroom".  It's part of TDBs' premise that, broadly in culture, these two formats are necessary, distinct yet complementary.

TheDàoBums has a strong egalitarian ethic in that it's whole purpose is to provide a civil very open context for member conversations.  However, its governance structure is mostly top down; it's not a democracy.
- admins - own / run the board
- moderators - enforce rules
- members - converse 

TDBs' Conversational Context:
1. At TDBs member participation in conversation is non-hierarchical.  Meaning, members have equal ability to talk regardless of level of knowledge, achievement, or status / credentials of any kind.  TDBs has an underlying ethic of valuing the communication of each person.

2. TDBs most basic rules about conversation are around civility (leaving enough flexibility for lively debate).  A moderator's basic role is to moderate members' uncivility toward each other in coversation.  Members support this process by 'reporting' offending posts.

A fictional example of how 1&2 shake out:
If there's a TDBs debate about music between Mozart vs a beginning piano player, and it becomes heated enough that reports are generated for moderator consideration then, still, "level of knowledge, achievement, or status" are not basis for moderation.  Civility is, applied equally to each member.

It's up to each member, not moderators, to sort out the truth (and other questions of quality) for themselves in conversation.  Moderators just keep the conversation civil within reasonable limits.  For issues of staff bias, members can contact the current admin.
(TheDaoBums' Three Foundations: Eclectic, Egalitarian, Civil., Some bold text in the original, for the purposes of this post I have bolded, Italisized and underlined important concepts related to the Egalitarian foundation of The Dao Bums, which have important implications for "truth claims" deriving from any authority, which need to be born in mind by all parties in discussions on the Dao Bums, ZYD)

 

It is in respect of these principles that we allow a great deal of "free speech" here, and generally only intervene when such free speech degenerates into personal attacks and insults, or into trolling, spamming, or stalking type of behavior which puts an unfair burden of defense on an individual member.  There are some other reasons we might intervene, such as directly threatening another, advocating violence, unnecessarily and egregiously vulgarity, and others, but those don't seem relevant here, but the ones which I have mentioned characterize this and many other discussions that have happened here in the past few months, so I thought this reminder of the Dao Bums overall policies, and our role as mods might be useful to our members.

[Taoist Texts]

Students of the same School are called brothers (sisters in case of women) in Daoism. It would be nice to learn it before attempting to translate Daoist texts   

 

The sheer ignorance of this statement (accompanied by a condescending cheek-puffing) betrays the shallowest possible understanding of the chinese culture, of daoism in particular and of the question at hand.

 

Still, being of interest to all, it deserves a leisurely debunking.

 

18. How does one find a Daoist master and what’s involved?

Who knows? Perhaps one ceases looking for a “Daoist master,"’ or at least the “Oriental Monk.”

If by “Daoist master” one means a formal teacher (shifu 师父)-student (dizi弟子, tudi徒弟) relationship, it is a matter of affinity, dedication, fortune, and sincerity, among other factors. Onecan search, but there is no guarantee of discovery or acceptance. If one happens to find a trustworthy teacher who accepts one as a disciple, one traditionally engages in intensive training. This may result in ordination and formal lineage-affiliation.

 

However, in a modem global context, one must recognize that people can buy ordination certificates, without the requisite training, for the right price. There are many self-identified “Daoist masters” who lack deep understanding, practice, and experience. They are “masters” without mastery.

 

From a traditional perspective, the title of shifu literally “teacher-father,” is an honorific form of address. It is bestowed by one’s students and associates based on one’s level of accomplishment. It is not a self-given title. How much more should this be the case with “master”?

http://home.sandiego.edu/~komjathy/Homepage_of_Louis_Komjathy/Daoist_Studies_files/DaoismFAQ_Komjathy.pdf

Edited February 22, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Mudfoot]

Would it not be more interesting if you quoted actual Advice/instruction on practice and analyzed the different ways to translate that.

[Arkady Shadursky]

Okay, fine.  Discuss how you translated the word compared to how he translated the word.  And really, discussions are for the purpose of transmitting and understanding concepts, not specific individual words.

 

Sure. Here is a case when a word changed the sense of entire concept. We were originally discussing if Traditional Daoism admits possibility to attain Dao from books, without a Teacher or not.

So if that phrase translated correctly - we see "the myriad of the texts describe only the principles of refining the elixir, but as to starting the work and incepting it, and as to the subtleties of the fire phases – without getting those personally from a teacher – even if your talent surpasses   颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn), then these are impossible to comprehend"  - meaning there is no way to comprehend without a Teacher. But if we switch "impossible" with "hard" as was done by the original translator - the entire sense of Yuan Gongfu's words changes and becomes misleading.

 

That is why that mistake (?) of translating 不可 as "hard to" seemed very strange to me, especially taking into account that in neighboring topic (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-liu-huayang/page-8#entry724228) we've together with "Taoist Texts" and awaken discussed that 不可 means impossible.

Except the words used were 'incorrect', 'false' and 'intentional'...  that is hardly to be re-stated now as simply bad.

 

Well, "bad" is a general word for the above. If I see incorrect and probably intentionally false translation - do I have a right to say that? I can be wrong - but I have published my opinion openly, and anyone is free to discuss it and show me my (probable) mistakes. I am free for argued discussion and it is how I believe, for example, our talk with Marblehead goes. 

 

The tries to expose oneself as a victim for several days not providing a single argued comment on the topic itself - is quite rough kind of that Taiji play 

 

Especially in our case, when I'm simply politely and openly expressing my opinion.

 

Thank you.

---

Arkady

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

That is why that mistake (?) of translating 不可 as "hard to" seemed very strange to me, especially taking into account that in neighboring topic (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-liu-huayang/page-8#entry724228) we've together with "Taoist Texts" and awaken discussed that 不可 means impossible.

 

No, me and her did not discuss it with you. We were too busy laughing at the shamelessness of your team telling a Chinese lady that you know her own language better than her. Hahaha, a bunch of laowai tourists telling a native Chinese that she does not know her own language. What credibility does your school have after that?

 

And no, 不可 does not mean impossible

 

 

Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar - Page 620 - Google Books Result

Yip Po-Ching, ‎Don Rimmington - 2015 - ‎Foreign Language Study

... repeating the verb 7.3 brief duration expressions 7.3 brief durational complement 12.1.2

bù kq 不可 not permitted 18.1.5

bù kqyr 不可以 not allowed to 

 

 

非法不可 - Learn cantonese - sheik.co.uk

非法不可: What does it mean? ... However, 「非法」 ( illegal) and

「不可」(not allowed / forbidden) are two related terms, It is a typical of Chinese 

 

www.ouhk.edu.hk/ETPU/pro/course_not_taken.pdf

不可重複修讀的科目組合如下：. Courses not allowed to be taken again. 不可重複修讀的科目組合. Phased out or to be phased out courses. 已停辦或將停辦的科目.

 

 

 

And so on and so forth

 

See, it is not 'impossible', it is something else. But then how can we explain the difference to someone who calls the two Wu 'brothers'? Now that is impossible.

 

word choice - Difference of 不可. 不要. and 别 - Chinese Language ... Jul 4, 2013 - In Chinese, 不可, 不要, and 别 can all mean "don't". ... 不可能 (not possible)

[Mudfoot]

So, in the light of the texts the argument started with.

 

What would a proper translation be?

 

That you are not allowed to truly study nei dan without a teacher?

Because the teacher is forbidden by Heaven to teach to openly?

[Arkady Shadursky]

"not permitted", "not allowed", "not possible" - all of this is denying of possibility. But this phrase can not be translated as "hard to". It doesn't have a symbol for "hard".

If there is not enough links were provided above, I'd provide more:
 

https://books.google.ru/books?id=OxjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT1135&lpg=PT1135&dq=不可+impossible&source=bl&ots=b0hvTzcsER&sig=sxQ7P9hEiJFNadgn87CYNYEXZqc&hl=ru&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%E4%B8%8D%E5%8F%AF%20impossible&f=false

"不可 impossible, not allowed"

https://books.google.ru/books?id=MerDDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=不可+impossible&source=bl&ots=paBCeyxDcN&sig=1vzddmQ2oWn9yyy1Zkk0b1an9iU&hl=ru&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%E4%B8%8D%E5%8F%AF%20impossible&f=false

"The term used there is bu ke 不可.50 There are myriad instances of ke or bu ke 不可(impossible/impermissible/ disapproval) in direct speech in early texts..."

This is well known for everyone. 不可晓 - means impossible to understand, not hard to understand
 

We were too busy laughing at the shamelessness of your team telling a Chinese lady that you know her own language better than her. Hahaha, a bunch of laowai tourists telling a native Chinese that she does not know her own language.

 

Is it a racial harassment of the forum members? Are you pointing that nationality "Chinese" overcome other nationalities? That non-Chinese could not understand ancient Chinese better than Chinese?

 

"bunch of laowai tourists " - well, this actuallly is an example of personal offend attempt. There are neither arguments behind nor it pointing to a mistake - nothing. This is your common tactic, when you are out of arguments for polite answer 

Just in case, I'd remind: "Laowai is the Mandarin pronunciation of 老外 (pinyin: lǎowài, lit. "Very foreign"), an informal term or slang for "foreigner," usually neutral but possibly impolite or loose in some circumstances."

In this particular case it was tried to be used in "impolite or loose" meaning.
---
Arkady

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Taoist Texts]

So, in the light of the texts the argument started with.

 

What would a proper translation be?

This)

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43003-riddle-me-this/?p=729610

 

That you are not allowed to truly study nei dan without a teacher?

 

 The text says that you are not only allowed but also fully can do so using itself.

 

Because the teacher is forbidden by Heaven to teach to openly?

 

Well, if openly means indiscriminately, then yes. But this text is not about it.

[Arkady Shadursky]

So, in the light of the texts the argument started with.

 

What would a proper translation be?

 

That you are not allowed to truly study nei dan without a teacher?

Because the teacher is forbidden by Heaven to teach to openly?

 

"the myriad of the texts describe only the principles of refining the elixir, but as to starting the work and incepting it, and as to the subtleties of the fire phases – without getting those personally from a teacher – even if your talent surpasses   颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn), then these are impossible to comprehend" 

 

Literally it means that all the texts describe only the latest stages of practice (principles of the refining).

But what about the beginning work (foundation) and "subtleties of the fire phases" - even if you are smarter than 颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn) (smartests students of Confucius) - yet you will be unable to get it without a Teacher.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Taoist Texts]

 

"not permitted", "not allowed", "not possible" - all of this is denying of possibility.  

 

 

See? The words have no meaning in commercial neidan.) All of the words.)

[Mudfoot]

The different translations might deny possibility, but gives very different reasons for it. Not possible and not allowed, they are very different.

[Marblehead]

So if that phrase translated correctly - we see "the myriad of the texts describe only the principles of refining the elixir, but as to starting the work and incepting it, and as to the subtleties of the fire phases – without getting those personally from a teacher – even if your talent surpasses   颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn), then these are impossible to comprehend"  - meaning there is no way to comprehend without a Teacher. But if we switch "impossible" with "hard" as was done by the original translator - the entire sense of Yuan Gongfu's words changes and becomes misleading.

 

 

Actually, I don't like seeing the word "impossible" in Taoist texts.  To me it indicated the reader/speaker feels they have full knowledge of "Potential/Mystery/wu".  We can define what is, we cannot define what might become.

 

Therefore I would question the suggest of "impossible" but agree with "hard" or difficult.

[Arkady Shadursky]

The different translations might deny possibility, but gives very different reasons for it. Not possible and not allowed, they are very different.

 

If it were "not allowed" the entire phrase would sound like "... even if you are very talented  - yet you are not allowed to understand" - which contains 2 illogicalities: 

 

1) allowance / disallowance can hardly be connected to the quality of being talented

2) it is impossible to allow / disallow someone to understand because the process of understanding is happening inside of person, no one can affect it.

 

That is why here it more likely seems to be reasonable "not possible".

 

Anyway both disallowed or impossible are  completely different  from original translator's "hard".

 

Actually, I don't like seeing the word "impossible" in Taoist texts.  To me it indicated the reader/speaker feels they have full knowledge of "Potential/Mystery/wu".  We can define what is, we cannot define what might become.

 

Therefore I would question the suggest of "impossible" but agree with "hard" or difficult.

 

You know what? I may agree with you here (in terms of personal like / dislike).

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to read a book and become immortal, without necessity of traveling to find a teacher, not fulfilling traditional requirements for students etc.? I say - it would be really wonderful!

 

But unfortunately, it is not what Patriarchs of the Past say to us in their texts. 

 

"Hard to" instead of "impossible to" - is may not be a translation. It might be an interpretation, but in this case we should honestly say like you do: "it is my opinion and interpretation of originally different words of Yuan Gongfu".

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Edited February 22, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Marblehead]

You know what? I may agree with you here (in terms of personal like / dislike).

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to read a book and become immortal, without necessity of traveling to find a teacher, not fulfilling traditional requirements for students etc.? I say - it would be really wonderful!

 

But unfortunately, it is not what Patriarchs of the Past say to us in their texts. 

 

"Hard to" instead of "impossible to" - is may not be a translation. It might be an interpretation, but in this case we should honestly say like you do: "it is my opinion and interpretation of originally different words of Yuan Gongfu".

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

Yeah, this is why I feel the need to occasionally state here on this forum that unless I am quoting someone, which I rarely do, everything I post here is my opinion and/or my understanding.

 

I don't normally question what someone supposedly said but I do often question the translation of what was supposedly said.

 

And I also sometimes question what has been said as it contradicts what I have learned from first hand experience.

 

I normally avoid discussions concerning the need for a teacher as I don't want to be treading in someone's field of experience and activity.

 

But I will remain with not liking the word "impossible" unless we are talking about something in the Manifest, like, It is impossible for me to fly with only my own physical capabilities and capacities.

[[email protected]]

In this particular case Arkadiy's approach seems more agreeable to me. He gives arguments in a correct and polite manner and suggests a dialogue, getting rude and offending messages by his opponent in return.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Mudfoot]

Since I do not read chinese and do not understand the cultural context the text was written in: Although it becomes illogical to us (just as you point out), would it have been as illogical to a chinese person, long ago?

 

Just trying to understand differences in translations here, I am not question you translation in it self.

[Marblehead]

In this particular case Arkadiy's approach seems more agreeable to me. He gives arguments in a correct and polite manner and suggests a dialogue, getting rude and offending messages by his opponent in return.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

Yeah, but you always agree with him so I wouldn't expect anything other than agreement.

 

Sometimes I don't even agree with my self.

[Taoist Texts]

Yeah, but you always agree with him so I wouldn't expect anything other than agreement.

[Arkady Shadursky]

Yeah, this is why I feel the need to occasionally state here on this forum that unless I am quoting someone, which I rarely do, everything I post here is my opinion and/or my understanding.

 

I don't normally question what someone supposedly said but I do often question the translation of what was supposedly said.

 

And I also sometimes question what has been said as it contradicts what I have learned from first hand experience.

 

I normally avoid discussions concerning the need for a teacher as I don't want to be treading in someone's field of experience and activity.

 

But I will remain with not liking the word "impossible" unless we are talking about something in the Manifest, like, It is impossible for me to fly with only my own physical capabilities and capacities.

 

It is ok if we are talking about the big topic of necessity of Teacher's transmission - A.A.Khokhlov has started a separate topic about this earlier (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/#entry726940) and we can discuss it there.

 

But here we are mostly discussing the translation in academic way - and it seems there is no way to translate "不可" as "hard".

 

Since I do not read chinese and do not understand the cultural context the text was written in: Although it becomes illogical to us (just as you point out), would it have been as illogical to a chinese person, long ago?

 

Just trying to understand differences in translations here, I am not question you translation in it self.

 

I understand it. I can only point you to basic dictionaries and examples so you can make your own opinion. We can not study Wenyan together as part of this discussion 

 

So here I can only tell you the conclusions of our research: according to context - it also can not be "not allowed" as in the entire text there is no other place where someone would "disallow understanding". Neither in other neidan texts   . It also doesn't contain grammatical constructions pointing us to such a meaning. 

 

Moreover these words of Yuan Gongfu are rephrased words of Patriarch Zhang Boduan, you can see the original quote here (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/#entry726940). It also says about necessity of verbal teaching and corresponds to the sense of "not possible".

 

And anyway, it doesn't seems possible to translate "不可" as "hard".

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[[email protected]]

Yeah, but you always agree with him so I wouldn't expect anything other than agreement.

 

Sometimes I don't even agree with my self.

Not always. F.e. I don't agree with his approach of equalizing taoist patriarchs to gods. May be I am not so keen in Taoism as he is.

Rgrds, Ilya

[damdao]

The sheer ignorance of this statement (accompanied by a condescending cheek-puffing) betrays the shallowest possible understanding of the chinese culture, of daoism in particular and of the question at hand.

 

Still, being of interest to all, it deserves a leisurely debunking.

 

18. How does one find a Daoist master and what’s involved?

Who knows? Perhaps one ceases looking for a “Daoist master,"’ or at least the “Oriental Monk.”

If by “Daoist master” one means a formal teacher (shifu 师父)-student (dizi弟子, tudi徒弟) relationship, it is a matter of affinity, dedication, fortune, and sincerity, among other factors. Onecan search, but there is no guarantee of discovery or acceptance. If one happens to find a trustworthy teacher who accepts one as a disciple, one traditionally engages in intensive training. This may result in ordination and formal lineage-affiliation.

 

However, in a modem global context, one must recognize that people can buy ordination certificates, without the requisite training, for the right price. There are many self-identified “Daoist masters” who lack deep understanding, practice, and experience. They are “masters” without mastery.

 

From a traditional perspective, the title of shifu literally “teacher-father,” is an honorific form of address. It is bestowed by one’s students and associates based on one’s level of accomplishment. It is not a self-given title. How much more should this be the case with “master”?

http://home.sandiego.edu/~komjathy/Homepage_of_Louis_Komjathy/Daoist_Studies_files/DaoismFAQ_Komjathy.pdf

 

As always the quoted text has nothing to do with the thesis it is supposed to support.

In Daoism and in martial arts we have the terms shifu, shimo, shihing and shidai. All of them related to family relations inside a school.

In fact what Komjathy says is exactly that "teacher-father", "disciple-son", the other disciple-son must be brother.

Don't you think?

[Marblehead]

It is ok if we are talking about the big topic of necessity of Teacher's transmission - A.A.Khokhlov has started a separate topic about this earlier (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/#entry726940) and we can discuss it there.

 

But here we are mostly discussing the translation in academic way - and it seems there is no way to translate "不可" as "hard".

 

I'm sure that if I had a great command of the Chinese language, which I don't, I would find a way to make it work.

 

Just a note:  On a few occasions I have told someone what I was going to do or what I have already done and they told me that I can't do it.  Now really, if I have already done it then it wasn't something impossible for me to do.  And if I was only in the planning stage, to be told that I cannot do it is based only on what they think I am capable of without knowing what my true capabilities are.

 

I can't argue the translation but I can argue my understanding.

[Marblehead]

Not always. F.e. I don't agree with his approach of equalizing taoist patriarchs to gods. May be I am not so keen in Taoism as he is.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

You did good.  I wouldn't agree with him to that either.  After all, I am an Atheist.

[Taoist Texts]

As always the quoted text has nothing to do with the thesis it is supposed to support.

Reely?

In fact what Komjathy says is exactly

 

 

Oh look, the quote has to do something  after all.

 

that "teacher-father", "disciple-son", the other disciple-son must be brother.

 

 

Komjathy does not say "disciple-son" at all.

 

Don't you think?

 

 

I do) and invite you to think too)

 

Students of the same School are called brothers (sisters in case of women) in Daoism. I 

 

This is an ignorant statement.

In chinese a student is called  (dizi弟子, tudi徒弟). You assume that 弟 means a brother. Question: if a teacher has only one student, how is the student called?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[damdao]

 

 

 

 

This is an ignorant statement.

In chinese a student is called  (dizi弟子, tudi徒弟). You assume that 弟 means a brother. Question: if a teacher has only one student, how is the student called?

 

 

Only an example of Family terms in traditional schools: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms

 

Sidai 师弟 師弟 si¹ dai⁶ shī dì junior male classmate

Simui 师妹 師妹 si¹ mui⁶ shī mèi junior female classmate

Sihing 师兄 師兄 si¹ hing¹ shī xiōng senior male classmate

Sije 师姐 師姐 si¹ je² shī jiě senior female classmate

Sifu 师父 師父 si¹ fu² shī fù master

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by damdao