Awakened vs Enlightened... Let's discuss the difference

[silent thunder]

There is this persistent and indelible sensation of beingness...

An awareness.  Opening and Closing Simultaneously.

 

Constriction and Expansion in Union.

 

I don't know at all about enlightenment or awakening... though there are times when I look up from my tea, or walk out the door when I have the unshakable experience of having just woke up from a dream state.

 

and I can no longer shake the sense that one moment, I will 'awaken' in the 'real' world, in the same manner that I have become lucid in the dream state, a myriad of times...

Edited February 25, 2017 by silent thunder

[awaken]

Enlightment: know the right direction

Awaken : on the right direction

 

So one could know the right direction, but still not on the right direction

[liminal_luke]

No doubt these words point toward real expierences that people have had, or are having, or could have in the future.  Yet I often wish we`d just cut them out of the discussion altogether.  If someone tells me they`re enlightened some part of me goes, ya prove it.  Not a very enlightened first reaction, I know.  Certainly not one that leads to much useful dialogue. I think a lot of us do this though -- about teachers and schools and fellow bums.  We end up debating about people lighting little pieces of paper on fire without a match, when we could be getting on with our spiritual lives.

 

There`s also the person that`s so busy thinking and dreaming about enlightenment, so focused on the nature of that far-away goal, that they neglect to take the next teeny tiny step towards it.  Discussion of enlightened states can be a spiritual roadblock, is all I`m saying.

 

YMMV

Edited February 26, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Luke, but here on the forum all we have is our labels and words.  No show time.

 

Teaching without words is not possible here.

[silent thunder]

No doubt these words point toward real expierences that people have had, or are having, or could have in the future.  Yet I often wish we`d just cut them out of the discussion altogether.  If someone tells me they`re enlightened some part of me goes, ya prove it.  Not a very enlightened first reaction, I know.  Certainly not one that leads to much useful dialogue. I think a lot of us do this though -- about teachers and schools and fellow bums.  We end up debating about people lighting little pieces of paper on fire without a match, when we could be getting on with our spiritual lives.

 

There`s also the person that`s so busy thinking and dreaming about enlightenment, so focused on the nature of that far-away goal, that they neglect to take the next teeny tiny step towards it.  Discussion of enlightened states can be a spiritual roadblock, is all I`m saying.

 

YMMV

 

 

Yeah, Luke, but here on the forum all we have is our labels and words.  No show time.

 

Teaching without words is not possible here.

 

 

Good points both.

 

I find those words distracting as well and usually less helpful rather than more, yet they are what we have to work with until better words are generated.  It's never possible to wrap one of the vast, spiritual experiences into words in a functional and meaningful manner to me, yet I try and I appreciate when others try.

 

I like being and beingness and awareness.  To me being accomodates the neutral, constant awareness that lies foundationally beneath my monkey mind.  It's tied intrinsically to my physical self, but accomodates the subtle as well.  It seems to lie on equal footing to the sub-quantum field and to me is at the core of Tao experience.  Beyond words, yet words can be there.  Beyond senses, yet the senses are present. 

 

Evervescent, Ephemeral, Ethereal, yet Concrete.

[dawei]

Maybe in poetic form:

 

Awakening:  The inner eye opens so that the outer eye will close

 

Enlightenment:  The outer eye close so that the inner eye will open

[Aetherous]

First, let's get count of Awakened/Enlightened around here. Then, let's understand what it actually means from their personal perspective. 

 

Just a typical human here.

 

Bonus question: can one enlightened/awakened "see"( recognize) another one without having to use words?

 

I think in true enlightenment, they know literally everything...so yes.

 

Extra bonus question: when one says he/she is "Awaken/Enlightened", what is your first reaction?

"Ugh."

 

Enlightenment (in the Buddhist definition) requires absolutely all negative emotions to be overcome...so any semblance of that in a person is a sign of unenlightenment. Beyond that, like I said (the blue letters in the quote box of this post), I think there is omniscience (knowing literally everything) in true enlightenment...so if we aren't there yet, what's the use of saying we're enlightened? Enlightened but clueless?

 

Anyone who rolls out of bed in the morning is awakened. I don't see the point in using that term. Awakened to what? If we're using it in the same sense as enlightenment, then the only "awakened" person is one who is awakened to all knowledge. If they're clueless about some things, then they're not awakened to those things yet, are they? So how could they be called awakened? Every smartphone zombie is just as awakened as this person on his high horse.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Aetherous

[awaken]

We can see different people have different definitions about enlightment.

 

I saw these situations for many years.

 

Even in the Buddhism forums in Taiwan.

 

After I saw a lot of uselessness arguments about enlightment.

 

I gave up to discuss what is enlightment.

 

Beginners always like to discuss these questions.

 

But the people who is really enlightment don't discuss them.

 

They see you in a moment.

Edited February 28, 2017 by awaken

[Gerry]

I still haven't heard/read an acceptable definition of "enlightened" so I couldn't vote there.

 

I do feel I am "awakened" most of the time.  Sometimes it seems I had placed my head up my ass.

 

Both phrases at some point in my life were goals, but neither of them make much sense to me these days.  Add Satori to this list.

 

I would call myself an absolute atheist, that is   even the concepts of "mind" and "original mind" are unpleasantly agnostic expressions.  Some Zenists have told me that I am materialistic, in the philosophical meaning of that word.  At first I was put off by that, but have come to realize that I am exactly that.

 

We are born.  We live. We die. We are Tao, but so to is everything.  Or perhaps everything bathes in Tao.  You cannot know Tao, so how is one ever awakened or enlightened. 

[Gerry]

Anyone who rolls out of bed in the morning is awakened. I don't see the point in using that term. Awakened to what? If we're using it in the same sense as enlightenment, then the only "awakened" person is one who is awakened to all knowledge. If they're clueless about some things, then they're not awakened to those things yet, are they? So how could they be called awakened? Every smartphone zombie is just as awakened as this person on his high horse.

 

Contextually it might be rephrased as  "Aware of what?" as a spiritual question.  The depth of one's awareness of "the knower and the known" is perhaps what is in question.  Our genetic inclinations are tilted away from self examination in favor of the ephemeral.  In various ways we are xenophobic by nature and we are equally xenophobic of our selves.

[VlasalV]

I'm guessing that the difference is related with the endurance of the experience of 'Light'. Awakened beings have experienced it at least once, or from time to time, but always go back behind the bars. Enlightened beings experience it permanently, there is no time.

[taoteching99]

( definitions are here: https://www.google.com/search?q=enlightenment&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS520US520&oq=enlightenment&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61j69i60.2038j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=spiritual+enlightenment)

 

Based on the recent topic...

First, let's get count of Awakened/Enlightened around here. Then, let's understand what it actually means from their personal perspective. 

 

Bonus question: can one enlightened/awakened "see"( recognize) another one without having to use words?

 

Extra bonus question: when one says he/she is "Awaken/Enlightened", what is your first reaction?

 

Celestial cookies for right answers will be served with high mountain tea shortly. 

 

-meow

 

 

*Modified poll to be anonymous to encourage participation.

 

When somebody says he/she is "Awakened" , i would probably ask : Does ur awakening still stays with you until today? Does it fades?

 

I post a this topic " Realize vs Experience of Self " http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43699-realize-vs-experience-of-self/#entry743674 here.

[taoteching99]

I still haven't heard/read an acceptable definition of "enlightened" so I couldn't vote there.

 

I do feel I am "awakened" most of the time. Sometimes it seems I had placed my head up my ass.

When you feel awakened 'most of the time' that doesnt count as Awakening at all.For true ,authentic awakening must stay and never fade away.If it comes and then goes away,is it authentic at all? Edited March 17, 2017 by taoteching99

[taoteching99]

Your using labels for physical objects, hard things that we can touch and use are basic senses to identify. If there were such obvious physical demarcations for the path then it would be much less confusing and contentious a subject. Furthermore, your choices are clunky and lack a well built structure to surround and enliven the context by which you are speaking.

 

Moksha, Nirvana, Enlightenment, Merging with the Dao, Self-Realization, Mushin, Satori, Immortal, Gnosis...etc. All of these terms come from different cultures yet are often assumed to be the same thing.....this is not necessarily the case. There are many different phenomenon on the path that can be potentially twisted and confused with words because there is no physical demarcations. 

 

The context surrounding the question assumes a kind of universalism. This is a flawed context in my opinion, a superficial perspective that sheds little light on the deeply complex and nuanced universe that were living in. Cheers.

 

 

Responding to ur 2nd paragraph, since " there are many phenomenon on the path " , perhaps a useful standard of judging is the permanency of the phenomenon.Does it stays?

[taoteching99]

In my understanding, to be awakened is to have "woken up" from the dream of duality. Enlightenment is the same thing. It seems to me that enlightenment, however, is something achieved after many many years while awakening is instantaneous.

Awakening is the moment of waking up, while enlightenment encompasses the whole shibang. You could say "he is very enlightened" but not "he is very awake".

Hi, can you elaborate on " awakening is instantaneous,while enlightenment is achieved after many years?

[taoteching99]

My thoughts on this topic.

 

To me enlightenment does not exist because it is out side of my current field of experience, and anything outside of that doesn't exist. I could put the words 'to me' at the end of the last sentence, but it doesn't seem right for some reason.

 

Awakening, I can relate to a bit more to, in that it is a gradual process and I do feel as though I am slowly awakening as time goes by. But really what I feel describes my process more is an un-knotting and letting go of tensions.

 

This comes about from my putting causes of tension in a positive light and then being able to let go of them. So I'm not even in the awakening camp either

Do you believe the process of unknotting and letting go of tensions has an end,a point when there is no more 'unknotting', no more 'tension' ?Have you ever ask yourself what it feels like when theres no more 'tension' ,theres no more unknotting to be done,,and is there such a state? A permanent " no more unknotting ",for 'im done' state?

 

The reason im asking this is simply because i myself am trying to understand what a permanent (state of )awakening is, is there even such thing?

 

You can read this thread

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43699-realize-vs-experience-of-self/#entry743674

Edited March 17, 2017 by taoteching99

[taoteching99]

No doubt these words point toward real expierences that people have had, or are having, or could have in the future.  Yet I often wish we`d just cut them out of the discussion altogether.  If someone tells me they`re enlightened some part of me goes, ya prove it.  Not a very enlightened first reaction, I know.  Certainly not one that leads to much useful dialogue. I think a lot of us do this though -- about teachers and schools and fellow bums.  We end up debating about people lighting little pieces of paper on fire without a match, when we could be getting on with our spiritual lives.

 

There`s also the person that`s so busy thinking and dreaming about enlightenment, so focused on the nature of that far-away goal, that they neglect to take the next teeny tiny step towards it.  Discussion of enlightened states can be a spiritual roadblock, is all I`m saying.

 

YMMV

When someone says they are enlightened,since they cannot prove it to me in a personal ,subjective way(im not yet experience what you experience), i would probably just asking this side question :

From the moment you are 'enlightened'(surely u dont feel enlightened at birth,there has to be a shifting at some point in your life ,this point in the past when u start to get enlightened ,or at least feels it more and more gradually)does the enlightenment stays?

[danielsholl]

you are 'awakened' when you wake up in the dark at 2 am. you are enlightened when you flip the light switch on

[Starjumper]

( definitions are here: https://www.google.com/search?q=enlightenment&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS520US520&oq=enlightenment&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61j69i60.2038j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=spiritual+enlightenment)

 

The poll is not useful because your definitions are incorrect.

 

Awakened is a meaningless new age word, and the correct definition for enlightenment is this, from this page:  http://endless-satsang.com/spiritual-enlightenment-spiritual-awakening.htm

Some definitions are very specific and narrow. One such definition for spiritual enlightenment is the complete dissolution of one's identity as a separate self with no trace of the egoic mind remaining. This sets the bar very high and means that very few people qualify as enlightened.

 

The technically correct definition is emotional bliss.

 

The important thing to note is that this is a TEMPORARY condition which lasts for a day or two.  It ignites an alchemical process which leads to various realizations but those realizations are not enlightenment, they are the result of it.

 

Therefore someone could say there are enlighten ed (past tense, when you add 'ed' to a verb it means it happened in the past), were enlightened, or had the enlightenment experience, but no one would say they are experiencing enlightenment while it is happening.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[rene]

Maybe in poetic form:

 

Awakening: The inner eye opens so that the outer eye will close

 

Enlightenment: The outer eye close so that the inner eye will open

Still with the "either/or", eh?

 

(I like it though, very poetic!)

[cold]

"... no one would say they are experiencing enlightenment while its happening."

 

No I suspect they are mumbling / mouthing " Aw Shucks, for frigging sakes Aw Shucks.

Don't know for sure of course.

[s1va]

I request that you modify the last option to "None of the above. Just a human mortal in this life time .so far..."

 

Things can change any moment.  We are still living this life.  How can we conclude we will be just human in this lifetime?  This life time is not over yet.  No one knows what's in store next moment.

 

[MIchael80]

I like the definitions that awakening is used to describe the Initial identity shift....waking up from being a Person to the source of all.

this awakening can be abiding or non abiding.

If it is abiding and there is openness than further shifts happen and deep Clearing/de-conditioning and transformations happen. first within consciouness (pure being) and then beyond it.

Enlightenment would be (for me) a very far away Point where one has gone through several indentiy shifts and deep embodiment of them.

Edited March 26, 2017 by MIchael80

[Prasanna]

Enlightenment or Spiritual awakening, both the terms mean the same Self Realization. May be we can say that there are different stages in spiritual awakening, but enlightenment means the ultimate state of Self Realization. When somebody turns from mundane worldly pursuits to spiritual pursuit, there is an awakening in the personality towards the truth and Realities of life. While in the spiritual path, as we progress, we are into different stages of spiritual awakening. Like, when we pursue Self Realization, the Self which was mere witness before we turned to spirituality, now helps us in our pursuit as a friend. This is one stage of awakening. As we grow up more in the spiritual pursuit, the Self becomes an enjoyer from a friend in the previous stage. This is another stage of awakening. Then, as we achieve total awakening, the individual himself becomes the Self known as Maheshwara who has perfect control over himself and his world. This is the last stage of awakening. Perfect control over the world doesn't mean authoritarian or dictatorship, but means minimal dependency on the world or absolute self sufficiency and self reliance.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Prasanna

[Orion]

Recently I was talking to a small group of people and the question was posed, "How do you know what real love is?" Intense discussion ensued. But how do you discuss an experience which is felt and not thought of, that is either there or not, and that you know when you see it and requires no qualifier?

 

Enlightenment is a carrot that is dangled before believers while they still need concepts, when really there is no goal.