Daoism in China

[WhiteTiger]

Thanks for the offer - but my experience with Chinese teachers who charge a heavy price has been quite negative...

 

Anyone else have experiences like this?

Damn... the thought of even going to china to learn under a teacher (whom i'm sure will not teach me very traditional stuff.) but the point is just to work your a$$ off as hard as possible and spend every waking moment practicing, refining, and growing, and understanding what is happening to the internal subtleties. Just for the sakes of proving you did the hard training program and fought you own mental, emotional, and physical obstructions that have created throughout your whole life.

 

Yet, I still truly believe that you will not learn many or much traditional martial arts, and even if you do, no matter how complex and full the system it is. It will not be taught very deep, to the real systems heart from where it was originated from.

 

What are other peoples experiences with it if they have actually gone to china just to learn a supposedly fantastic system, and spend all this money to learn it?

[林愛偉]

Anyone else have experiences like this?

Damn... the thought of even going to china to learn under a teacher (whom i'm sure will not teach me very traditional stuff.) but the point is just to work your a$$ off as hard as possible and spend every waking moment practicing, refining, and growing, and understanding what is happening to the internal subtleties. Just for the sakes of proving you did the hard training program and fought you own mental, emotional, and physical obstructions that have created throughout your whole life.

 

Yet, I still truly believe that you will not learn many or much traditional martial arts, and even if you do, no matter how complex and full the system it is. It will not be taught very deep, to the real systems heart from where it was originated from.

 

What are other peoples experiences with it if they have actually gone to china just to learn a supposedly fantastic system, and spend all this money to learn it?

 

 

I know of a Yin Style Bagua Master out in Beijing... One of the Best in China I would bet anything on it.

When I mean Bagua, I don't mean just form. It is application of body and mind/intent/will. The man knows his stuff, teaches Qigong as well. Very good stuff.

 

His name is Xu Shi Xi, and teaches out in Tiantan Park. 100rmb a day for 4-6 hours training daily. He is a straight forward man, and humble as well.. to an extent..lol meaning when he is hitting you, it isn't humble...for him. My own Bagua teacher learned from him, and one of my close friends is studying with him.

 

http://www.xushixi.com/en/index.asp

 

Peace,

Lin

[hagar]

Thats fine.

 

No matter, if you don't come with a letter of reccomendation from a highly respected master, this is the way to get access to quality teachings.

 

He charges about 100 Dollars for a private session.

 

I think that's about as much as any western teacher would have charged for the same. Or less.

 

Anyhoop, the issue here is remebering that as a westerner, you are by all standards loaded in comparaison to any chinese student. It is a matter of courtesy to respect these cultural differences. These people just try to make a living too.

 

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

Yet again, if your "fate" is to meet a teacher who takes you in for free, be my guest.

 

h

[onebir]

http://www.xushixi.com/en/index.asp

Thanks for the link - impossible to find on google! I've cross-posted it to Emptyflower - there are some Bagua guys in Beijing who might like to check him out.

 

He charges about 100 Dollars for a private session.

 

I think that's about as much as any western teacher would have charged for the same. Or less.

 

Anyhoop, the issue here is remebering that as a westerner, you are by all standards loaded in comparaison to any chinese student. It is a matter of courtesy to respect these cultural differences. These people just try to make a living too.

 

Comparisons with a western teacher are stupid - they have to pay western living expenses, not much lower chinese living expenses. It's not a cultural difference, it's an economic difference. The cultural difference is an acceptance of discrimination against foreigners, which would be morally unacceptable in many western countries. I don't see how courtesy demands that anyone respects that.

 

And the amounts are pretty outrageous (by Chinese standards - 如乡随俗). USD100 = RMB 800 = around 25% of average monthly salary in Beijing.

 

I don't know if you've been to China, but if you'd seen all the people driving around in huge SUVs - which are heavily taxed here, and more expensive than in some western countries - the cafes and bars with near western prices, etc, you'd realise that to assume that assuming westerners are "loaded in comparaison (sic) to any chinese student" is nonsensical. There's a significant wealthy middle/upper class in the cities.

 

Yet again, if your "fate" is to meet a teacher who takes you in for free, be my guest.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

No need to be sarcastic. I thanked you for your offer, but declined it & explained why. My experience with one teacher who charged a lot was quite negative, and I can see how making that kind of money from expendable foreigners could be corrupting. Rip off one for all you can get, there'll be another one along soon.

 

& I haven't asked for anything for free, including lunch. If I prefer to order from the chinese version of menu, that's my call.

Edited December 19, 2007 by onebir

[WhiteTiger]

Thanks for the link - impossible to find on google! I've cross-posted it to Emptyflower - there are some Bagua guys in Beijing who might like to check him out.

Comparisons with a western teacher are stupid - they have to pay western living expenses, not much lower chinese living expenses. It's not a cultural difference, it's an economic difference. The cultural difference is an acceptance of discrimination against foreigners, which would be morally unacceptable in many western countries. I don't see how courtesy demands that anyone respects that.

 

And the amounts are pretty outrageous (by Chinese standards - 如乡随俗). USD100 = RMB 800 = around 25% of average monthly salary in Beijing.

 

I don't know if you've been to China, but if you'd seen all the people driving around in huge SUVs - which are heavily taxed here, and more expensive than in some western countries - the cafes and bars with near western prices, etc, you'd realise that to assume that assuming westerners are "loaded in comparaison (sic) to any chinese student" is nonsensical. There's a significant wealthy middle/upper class in the cities.

No need to be sarcastic. I thanked you for your offer, but declined it & explained why. My experience with one teacher who charged a lot was quite negative, and I can see how making that kind of money from expendable foreigners could be corrupting. Rip off one for all you can get, there'll be another one along soon.

 

& I haven't asked for anything for free, including lunch. If I prefer to order from the chinese version of menu, that's my call.

 

Wow! bam! nicely put.

 

In my prospective (no matter how narrow my knowledge in this area seems to be) there is no reason the price should be different. I'm sure many times they are different. I'm not doubting this. but to serve what new purpose thats different? In the end there is no special reason i truly believe. Its rather the fact that they can do it and get away with it, nicely and easily.

[hagar]

Yes, I've lived in China

 

My master is from Beijing

 

The price of a teaching is not related to living expenses.

 

You are right, the difference in price is due to the fact that we are from the west. You have to take into account that we are waltzing into their home turf like elphants in a procelain shop, and after even years of living in China, westerners step on toes all the time. It takes decades to grasp the cultural codes and nuances in interaction. So if I, as a western man come to a Chinese master asking for a teaching, there is no straight forward exchange that is supposed to happen. It does not work that way.

 

There's alot of rich people in Beijing. But there is even more poverty. A block away from the hideouos shopping malls people are living in a different century. The upper 5 % have alot, the majority have very little.

 

But my original post was not an attempt to be sarcastic, and I actually made you a generous offer to get access to a highly acclaimed master that would be inaccessible for all western and many Chinese students.

 

You cannot order from the chinese version of the menu.

 

h

[onebir]

Its rather the fact that they can do it and get away with it, nicely and easily.

The reason is lack of information. China's a huge place, and the number of westerners interested enough in this kind of material to come here to learn it is probably small in comparison with the number of people in China who have a good grasp of it & would be prepared to teach it to reasonably dedicated students if there were less of a language barrier. But a relatively small proportion of these potential teachers get a western disciple who publicises them & all the demand goes their way, so they can charge very high prices.

 

The price of a teaching is not related to living expenses.

I think you implied it was/should be: "These people just try to make a living too."

 

You are right, the difference in price is due to the fact that we are from the west. You have to take into account that we are waltzing into their home turf like elphants in a procelain shop, and after even years of living in China, westerners step on toes all the time. It takes decades to grasp the cultural codes and nuances in interaction.

There's some truth in this, but I think you're exaggerating it. I could be wrong. I've seen bulls in chinashops (no pun intended) and how quickly they can lose Chinese friends goodwill. On the other hand, once people know you, and know you mean well, in my experience, they give you the benefit of the doubt many times over.

 

So if I, as a western man come to a Chinese master asking for a teaching, there is no straight forward exchange that is supposed to happen. It does not work that way.

I'm not sure how this justifies charging many times the price a chinese person would pay. Teacher student relationships are rarely straightforward in any culture I suspect.

 

There's alot of rich people in Beijing. But there is even more poverty. A block away from the hideouos shopping malls people are living in a different century. The upper 5 % have alot, the majority have very little.

Absolutely. But you said "as a westerner, you are by all standards loaded in comparaison to any chinese student." For the middle-upper class this logic is false - as you say the wealthy are wealthy by western standards. And most of the less well off work such long hours that they wouldn't have time for serious study. So the wealthy are probably the relevant group for comparison.

 

But my original post was not an attempt to be sarcastic, and I actually made you a generous offer to get access to a highly acclaimed master that would be inaccessible for all western and many Chinese students.

I appreciate the offer, as I said. Only the last two sentences seemed sarcastic & I apologise if that wasn't intended. If you can get me a good discount on the 100$ I'll check out your master next time I'm in Beijing. Now we have guanxi, and we should do things the Chinese way, 是吧!

 

You cannot order from the chinese version of the menu.

I do for pretty much everything else, including taiji classes. Sometimes I get "better than Chinese prices" via guanxi - to the extent that I sometimes have mixed feelings about it (especially for medical treatment). Guess I'll just have to see if I can work the guanxi - thought I was leaving the area so there are still quite a few unexplored leads....

 

But if there's any more info out there, especially about Yunnan, I'd appreciate it...

Edited December 19, 2007 by onebir