This what having no compassion looks like

[dust]

I was drunk last night and am hungover right now so maybe you'll have to take my words with a pinch of salt, but... I don't think so. I don't think it was a strawman.

 

I'm assuming that the same thing could have happened a year ago -- an undocumented immigrant detained. And that's fine, that's the law, that's what should happen... except that this one has a brain tumour. I don't know US law on this point exactly, but international law certainly has something to say about it.

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs323/en/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449334/

 

That latter article is 12 years old and perhaps things in the US have changed, but based on the OP article it doesn't sound like it.

 

I'm not suggesting she should have just been set free. I'm saying in her imprisonment she should have been treated with more respect and, as blackstar says, compassion. Surely this isn't too much to ask?

Edited February 25, 2017 by dust

[Stosh]

I hope youre feeling better soon, drink a lot of water.

What you said did have the ring of news prompted oversimplification. Many people surely do have compelling emotional reasons for ... bending the laws we have so laxly enforced. I hope , If her concerns are founded on fact , and she really has no other choice, we give a temporary waiver or something. But our medical system isnt all that wonderful as its cracked up to be.

There will indeed be hard cases , there always are, and the media likes to find that one special exception to focus attention on..

Theres plenty of folks who really do think that this is some kind of squatters habitat, and think everyone in the world has ,THe Right! to live here. and the media plays into that. I dont know how many times Ive heard in the last month, We are all immigrants. And the ridiculousness of that blows my mind. BECAUSE ,my great ancestors n kin , arrived , were vetted , were examined like cattle, and sometimes were Rejected for health reasons. disabilities, or lack of skills to ply. That eventually they got in, went though a long process to become citizens and proved they really wanted to Be Americans and "get with our program " .... Thats what made them truly americans , and its why I too , am an American Citizen , Not An immigrant , not an illegal alien. Someone hopping on a boeing landing in Dallas , or driving across the Rio Grande ,to see a doctor, is a visitor, or an alien, not automatically citizen or even immigrant.

[Marblehead]

Not if you had a brain tumour. If you were sick or dying I would try to help you.

 

Knowing you who are... I'd see about an in-person discussion of Zhuangzi and a couple of beers.. and then I'd try and get rid of you by any means necessary..

 

I'm no brain surgeon.  I wouldn't be able to help.

 

The USA allows for many entries into the country for medical assistance.  The point is that her entry was illegal and unsupported by any organization.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Marblehead

[Brian]

Ummm...

 

Y'all understand that she's been receiving treatment, right? She spent 12 days in-patient and was transferred back to the detention center AFTER she was released from the hospital? It is unclear from these reports, and her attorneys don't say otherwise, but I suspect she already had surgery, too.

[dust]

Ummm...

 

Y'all understand that she's been receiving treatment, right? She spent 12 days in-patient and was transferred back to the detention center AFTER she was released from the hospital? It is unclear from these reports, and her attorneys don't say otherwise, but I suspect she already had surgery, too.

 

Good! That's what I would have expected/hoped for.

 

As I said in my first post, my argument was hypothetical, based on taking the OP article at face value -- it implies that she was denied medical care. Many seem to disagree that she should be given medical care for any reason -- she's broken the law, she's not a citizen, so she requires no help from the states.

 

 

I'm no brain surgeon.  I wouldn't be able to help.

 

The USA allows for many entries into the country for medical assistance.  The point is that her entry was illegal and unsupported by any organization.

 

If it's a question of her entering the country simply to get some medical assistance that maybe she couldn't get back home.. why not head to Canada or somewhere else where healthcare is assured to a much greater degree than in the US?

 

And yes of course you'd be able to help! And I think you would, really. I disagree with a lot of you about a lot of shit these days, but I believe most bums would try to help, even if they take a hard position in theory on here. Give the intruder a drink of water, call an ambulance, etc?

 

 

 

I hope youre feeling better soon, drink a lot of water.

 

Thanks. Though as I've been told, it's my own stupid fault

 

 

What you said did have the ring of news prompted oversimplification. Many people surely do have compelling emotional reasons for ... bending the laws we have so laxly enforced. I hope , If her concerns are founded on fact , and she really has no other choice, we give a temporary waiver or something. But our medical system isnt all that wonderful as its cracked up to be.

 

No.. I'd try and get to Canada, I think!

Edited February 25, 2017 by dust

[Brian]

So...

 

What if the State Department had been advertising on TV, radio and posters in buses in Central American countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatamala to make sure citizens there knew of the free amenities available to them in the US if only they managed to get here?

[thelerner]

Well, if I invaded your house wouldn't you try to get rid of me by any means necessary?

I hope not. 

Sometimes your writing is irritating, but I hope I'd warm up a kettle and not do anything to drastic to you. 

 

 

The best thing to happen if I found an invader in my house, is for him to leave quickly without taking anything.  The worst is violence.  Worse if its me, rather then him, but violence to either is a bad outcome.  The more hurt (or killed), the greater we get linked, legally and karmicly.   

 

On the third hand, being good does not mean being stupid.  I've been looking at something called a Salt Gun.  Apparently it fires hard (pepperball) like objects that have strong tear gas properties.  I'd rather open my door a crack and shoot a few of these into the wall and shout out 'I've called the police, why don't you leave'-, with little chance of permanently hurting a crook or unexpected child or Dao bum member, then risk killing someone. 

 

FWIW (see youtube videos Salt Gun) about $350.

 

I might get one of these.   I have a bokken and staff in my bedroom, but wouldn't want to bring those to a gun fight.  Plus nothing says get out of my house like the spread of tear gas/strong pepper spray.  Apparently each shot spreads a potent gas/dust that blinding and unpleasant. 

 

 

 

addon> in the being good does not mean being stupid vein- A nation has the right to secure borders.  Illegal is illegal, and we shouldn't put legal and illegal immigrants in the same group.  Yet the U.S has long enjoyed a symbiotic relation with illegal immigrants; they pick our fruit, clean our houses, heck, often build our houses.  Despite demagoguery they are as a whole more honest (less criminal) then the average US citizen.

 

For me, the best solution has to balance justice, compassion and realities of the long symbiotic relation.  I'd like to see a path to citizenship for long term illegal immigrants with clean records, perhaps for a limited time as Reagan did.  I'd also be cautious in the face of despots using refugees as part of there war plan, ie more should be done to set up local safe zones, then allow massive refugee inflows.  An admittedly massively expensive and difficult option but cheaper and safer in the long run.  Military budgets and strategies have to incorporate and plan for this option. 

 

Criminals should be deported.  Somehow large sweeps and massive deportations seem unAmerican.  I'd rather see it done slower.  We are a nation of immigrants and need to respect our principle of being a beacon of hope. 

[Marblehead]

I have no idea how it currently reads but I get the impression that our (the USA) immigration process needs be revised and simplified.

 

A welfare state will last only so long before it collapses.  

[Kar3n]

I have no idea how it currently reads but I get the impression that our (the USA) immigration process needs be revised and simplified.

 

A welfare state will last only so long before it collapses.  

Pamphlet for immigrants. Though I suspect it is meant for legal immigrants, I am sure there are those who are illegal that get their hands on it and purchase forged documents to receive benefits or just apply for a DL and register to vote. Viola legal documents and benefits to boot!

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/M-618.pdf

 

I am not sure of the validity of the following article from 2013, but it is a head scratcher...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315115/Shocking-US-government-leaflet-tells-Mexican-immigrants-collect-food-stamp-benefits-admitting-theyre-country-illegally.html

Edited February 26, 2017 by Kar3n
link edit

[Brian]

 

Pamphlet for immigrants. Though I suspect it is meant for legal immigrants, I am sure there are those who are illegal that get their hands on it and purchase forged documents to receive benefits or just apply for a DL and register to vote. Viola legal documents and benefits to boot!

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/M-618.pdf

 

I am not sure of the validity of the following article from 2013, but it is a head scratcher...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315115/Shocking-US-government-leaflet-tells-Mexican-immigrants-collect-food-stamp-benefits-admitting-theyre-country-illegally.html

I wasn't just speculating about the State Department recruiting in Central America, you know...

 

[Kar3n]

I wasn't just speculating about the State Department recruiting in Central America, you know...

 

I never doubted you for a second.

[Stosh]

Pamphlet for immigrants. Though I suspect it is meant for legal immigrants, I am sure there are those who are illegal that get their hands on it and purchase forged documents to receive benefits or just apply for a DL and register to vote. Viola legal documents and benefits to boot!

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/nativedocuments/M-618.pdf

 

I am not sure of the validity of the following article from 2013, but it is a head scratcher...

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315115/Shocking-US-government-leaflet-tells-Mexican-immigrants-collect-food-stamp-benefits-admitting-theyre-country-illegally.html

 

Looks pretty darn open door to me. Something doesnt compute though, if the green card is so easy why are there so many who are illegal?

[Marblehead]

Looks pretty darn open door to me. Something doesnt compute though, if the green card is so easy why are there so many who are illegal?

 

Corruption in the people's home country.  It takes money to get their request through their bureaucracy.

[dust]

It's not easy. A good friend of mine, UK citizen, highly qualified in his field, working at a multinational which already has offices in the US, was denied a visa twice. Before Trump.

[Marblehead]

It's not easy. A good friend of mine, UK citizen, highly qualified in his field, working at a multinational which already has offices in the US, was denied a visa twice. Before Trump.

 

This might be a case of the UK wanting to keep its educated people home.  Too many of these type leave their home country and that reduces the chances of their home country developing into something better.

[Brian]

This might be a case of the UK wanting to keep its educated people home. Too many of these type leave their home country and that reduces the chances of their home country developing into something better.

It is more likely a case of the entrenched establishmentarians preferring immigrants who are likely to benefit the establishment rather than benefit the citizenry. This has been the practice since at least the Johnson Administration (before that, the official policy was to evaluate prospective immigrants based on their ability to contribute to the good of the US). Edited February 27, 2017 by Brian

[Stosh]

It's not easy. A good friend of mine, UK citizen, highly qualified in his field, working at a multinational which already has offices in the US, was denied a visa twice. Before Trump.

Doesnt being denied twice , indicate that the application process is indeed easy, but we just don't want that person here? The answer was 'no'. 

Heck for all I know, behind the scenes, we asked his home country if we should give him the Visa , and they told us to deny it. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Stosh

[windwalker]

How many asking the questions have ever been involved in the process?

 

I've traveled a lot from the US to other countries, visas depending on type

can be denied for a number of reasons by the host country.  

 

work visas, or other types of visas are not so easy to get for many countries including 

the US. 

[Stosh]

How many asking the questions have ever been involved in the process?

 

I've traveled a lot from the US to other countries, visas depending on type

can be denied for a number of reasons by the host country.  

 

work visas, or other types of visas are not so easy to get for many countries including 

the US. 

I've been overseas and crossed borders , and had a resident alien girlfriend for long time once.. but don't see what that has to do with understanding the procedure behind the scene , regarding the experience of large numbers of individuals,

and a single naturalized citizen IS going to make the mistake of thinking , that his or her experience, is representative of everyone else's experience, , which it may , or may not be.

And despite what may have been described as host nations denial , I would bet a buck that they send the originating country an email (with a check box asking if they know of any reason what-soever,  why the US should not issue a visa to particular individuals ).

[Brian]

As a curiosity, I'll mention that one of the main organizers of the upcoming "A Day without Women" protest (or whatever they are calling it) is currently fighting deportation for lying on her paperwork about 20 years ago. Turns out she forgot to mention she's a convicted terrorist. She's now getting a retrial after having her citizenship revoked and deportation ordered a couple years ago on the basis that her omission of that detail was caused by PTSD.

 

My point being that the current problems with the screening process aren't new but that modern technology (including improvements in computers and communications) should offer opportunities for significant improvements.

[cold]

"Just the facts ma'am" (or sir as the case maybe).  Detective Sergeant Joseph "Joe" Friday Dragnet

 

And after some time...

 

"And now you know the rest of the story."  Paul Harvey

 

But do we really?

[dust]

This might be a case of the UK wanting to keep its educated people home.  Too many of these type leave their home country and that reduces the chances of their home country developing into something better.

 

Well.. I think, as long as he has a valid passport, the UK has no opportunity or right to involve itself. And he's already worked abroad for some years.

 

 

Doesnt being denied twice , indicate that the application process is indeed easy, but we just don't want that person here? The answer was 'no'. 

Heck for all I know, behind the scenes, we asked his home country if we should give him the Visa , and they told us to deny it. 

 

What with lawyers being involved in the advisement and application process and the fact that he's already worked in another country for the same company... it's not that he's generally undesirable. But apparently not desirable enough for the USA.

 

Not that the US doesn't have every right to pick and choose... I'm just saying, it's not the case that any foreigner can apply for a work visa and be accepted without question!

Edited February 28, 2017 by dust

[Stosh]

Well.. I think, as long as he has a valid passport, the UK has no opportunity or right to involve itself. And he's already worked abroad for some years.

 

 

 

What with lawyers being involved in the advisement and application process and the fact that he's already worked in another country for the same company... it's not that he's generally undesirable. But apparently not desirable enough for the USA.

 

Not that the US doesn't have every right to pick and choose... I'm just saying, it's not the case that any foreigner can apply for a work visa and be accepted without question!

I can agree with that, we just don't know the reason for the refusal , it could be he has shady dealings you don't know about , or hangs with some folks considered problematic by us though he personally isn't shady,  or US competition doesn't want him here , or his home country thinks he might relocate if he Could get a visa here and they want to keep his business there , or a thousand other reasons I cant even guess at. And if I was INS I might not give him the real reason why, maybe we have enough illegals here that we don't want to let in yet more people , though legally. ( or we just have an antiquated clusterbang running the ins  )

[Brian]

Or we might have system in place which isn't merit-based...

[MooNiNite]

Justified is to me, at the root of this and many horrific sufferings manufactured unecessarily by humans on the world, other beings and themselves.

 

Justified is to me, if not the most horrifying, then in the top three most horrifying concept/words that exists.

 

Any concept based on reality has a basis of Justification.

 

Karma.

 

Religion.

 

Doing good deeds.

 

Even from a purely mathematical perspective, justification is simply cause and effect.