Talking about Nan Pai and Jin Dan Si Bai Zi

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

A recent thread brought up the document "golden elixir four hundred words" and I want to address some things about this document in a separate thread, since this will give us a chance to start with a fresh slate about this very important document.

 

Firstly, I want to clarify that Ziyang Zhenren was not part of the Complete Reality School movement or the Northern School.  This is a small, but very important distinction, because the Northern and Southern Schools have very different approaches in the beginning of study.    The Complete Reality (Northern) is often called the Sudden Realization School, because it starts from a similar premise to Chan, which is that you quiet and empty the mind as the main method of practice.   This is called "first cultivate Xing and later cultivate ming."  The Southern school is "first cultivate ming and later cultivate Xing."   So the Southern school starts from "The three families gather to meet the new born child," that is to say, yuan jing, qi, and shen are combined in the chaotic (hun dun) state in order to give birth to the embryo.   This is hugely different from Wang Chongyang's theory and it is important to understand this because Quanzhen put Ziyang Zhenren's theory into their school after the fourth generation, so it is not native to Quanzhen from the outset.   Quanzhen in terms of the Long Men school still mainly practice Xing first and Ming later, so this is also important to remember when we compare the two schools.

 

Now lets do a bit of textual analysis:

 

七返九還金液大丹者，七以火數，九乃金數，以火煉金，返本還元，謂之金丹。

seven turns and nine returns is the golden fluid great elixir. Seven is the number of fire and nine is the number of metal.  When fire refines metal it will return to the root and go back to the origin, that is golden elixir:

 

Comment:  the important part here is ，返本還元，謂之金丹 return to the root and go back to the origin is the golden elixir.   Gold is found in the centre of the water element (kan) and yin fire descends to kan in order to coax gold to rise to the fire palace (Li gong) where it changes fire to heaven (qian).

Li and Kan are the post heaven mixed form of the pre heaven heaven and earth and the work of jin dan is to convert them back the pure form of heaven (yuan xing) and earth (the body).

This is not done by "first cultivate xing" because if you do it like this, xing and ming can't mix.   This is the weakness of Quanzhen and the reason why they had to appropriate Ziyang Zhenren's teachings to fill out their own teaching.   Technically, Ziyang Zhenren taught "first practice ming" but actually, the method is "Xing and ming dual cultivation" because we cultivate both consciousness and life energy together.

It will take many years of correct practice to be able to call up this ability when your body is moving, it is why Nan Pai is often called the "gradual realization school."  This is the weakness of the Southern school and the reason why it is valuable to practice Quanzhen methods when you are not on the meditation cushion.

 

I want to make this thread not to challenge anyone personally, but to try to talk for real about Nei Dan, because it is important to be very clear about how the different schools understood the practice.  it is not a matter of 1500 side doors, because many of the other pai such as western, eastern, middle, san feng, and so on and so on are all very useful.   it takes a special kind of conceit for us who are walking in the shadow of giants to put down their studies as having missed the point.  I don't think anyone here has discarded the corporeal form and ascended to immortality, so lets not pretend we are the same as those who have before us.

 

I will get off my soap box now.

[Ormus]

Thank you for this great post.I didnt see new tread about  "golden elixir four hundred words" .

 

Nanzong Pai is also mentioned in relation to pair cultivation and much later schools which share the same or similar teachings like Dong Pai and Xi Pai.It is to be interesting to learn more about this topic in this 3 schools if posible and why Quanzhen rejected it and stay to Qing Xiu.

 

Master Chen Zhixu mention this topic and try to explain how this is diferent from Quanzhen and Chan Buddhism in his time.

 

Ormus

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Thank you for this great post.I didnt see new tread about  "golden elixir four hundred words" .

 

Nanzong Pai is also mentioned in relation to pair cultivation and much later schools which share the same or similar teachings like Dong Pai and Xi Pai.It is to be interesting to learn more about this topic in this 3 schools if posible and why Quanzhen rejected it and stay to Qing Xiu.

 

Master Chen Zhixu mention this topic and try to explain how this is diferent from Quanzhen and Chan Buddhism in his time.

 

Ormus

 

I wouldn't say that it was so much of a rejection rather than just wang chongyang's theory being more close to Lu dongbin's theory and that of the qing jing classic which are both essentially spontaneous methods.

Also I think the influence of Qiu Chuji and Tan Chudan whose methods were significantly less wrapped up in "Lian ming" than others in the Quanzhen lineage.   Keep in mind that Quazhen is also the root of Nv Dan, so it is a very rich school for sure.

 

In my opinion, the persons who put the two schools together first were Zhang Sanfeng and Li Daochun.  I think even though we see the term "shuan xiu" in nanzong writings, it was not well understood back to that time in history.  I feel Li Daochun really moved that concept forward into something which was systematized.  

[Ormus]

Immortal Master Lu Dong Bin is also mentioned as transsmiting pair cultivation and Wai Dan(laboratory books) both to ortodox schools and salvation societys-spirit writing cults.Not to mention his famous dealings with prostitues of whom one become Xian.

 

I dont know if some other lineage along Longmen Pai is still operative.

 

Yes I find that Nu Dan is accepted by later Longmen Pai but in reality almost all Nu Dan books come by planchette spirit writing cults in XVIII century and later.

 

Do you think that Huang Yuanji first mix Nanzong and Quanzhen before Li Daochun?

 

Regarding Shuang Xiu,I think that it is mentioned as Xing and Ming in Qing Xiu context and as Yin Yang Xing Ming in pair cultivation and people maybe mix this to positions in later times.

 

Ormus

[Taoist Texts]

 

This is not done by "first cultivate xing" because if you do it like this, xing and ming can't mix.   This is the weakness of Quanzhen and the reason why they had to appropriate Ziyang Zhenren's teachings to fill out their own teaching.   Technically, Ziyang Zhenren taught "first practice ming" but actually, the method is "Xing and ming dual cultivation" because we cultivate both consciousness and life energy together.

It will take many years of correct practice to be able to call up this ability when your body is moving, it is why Nan Pai is often called the "gradual realization school."  This is the weakness of the Southern school and the reason why it is valuable to practice Quanzhen methods when you are not on the meditation cushion.

 

I want to make this thread not to challenge anyone personally, but to try to talk for real about Nei Dan, because it is important to be very clear about how the different schools understood the practice.  it is not a matter of 1500 side doors, because many of the other pai such as western, eastern, middle, san feng, and so on and so on are all very useful.   it takes a special kind of conceit for us who are walking in the shadow of giants to put down their studies as having missed the point.   

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Immortal Master Lu Dong Bin is also mentioned as transsmiting pair cultivation and Wai Dan(laboratory books) both to ortodox schools and salvation societys-spirit writing cults.Not to mention his famous dealings with prostitues of whom one become Xian.

 

I dont know if some other lineage along Longmen Pai is still operative.

 

Yes I find that Nu Dan is accepted by later Longmen Pai but in reality almost all Nu Dan books come by planchette spirit writing cults in XVIII century and later.

 

Do you think that Huang Yuanji first mix Nanzong and Quanzhen before Li Daochun?

 

Regarding Shuang Xiu,I think that it is mentioned as Xing and Ming in Qing Xiu context and as Yin Yang Xing Ming in pair cultivation and people maybe mix this to positions in later times.

 

Ormus

This is a pretty big topic, but I'll just answer what I'm qualified to answer:

The original Nu Dan probably started with Sun Buer, who left behind several documents.   If I understand it correctly, her lineage still lived on in the nunnery, but I'm not a Quanzhen person and can't claim any special knowledge of their system outside of general principles.

Huang Yuanji came much later than Li Dao Chun.  The time line is the Li Daochun was teaching in the Yuan Dynasty, only a couple hundred years after Wang Chongyang.  That is why some people call Zhong Pai as a Quanzhen offshot, although I personally feel it is much closer to Nan zong in theory.   Huang Yuanji was probably late ming or early Qing dynasty, so more modern.   You can actually trace it in Huang's writing style, it is much closer to modern Chinese writing.

About your last comment, I don't know, but certainly the theory of dual cultivation of xing and ming was best developed by the middle school, which then influenced many other nei dan schools.   The earliest reference I've seen to it is in early nanzong material, but the first clear reference I can find to it as a kind of distinct practice is from Zhang san feng.