Qi Men Dun Jia or Da Liu Ren or Tai Yi or Tie Ban Shen Shu anyone?

[Taomeow]

Looking for input from anyone familiar with any one of the above. 

[YFS]

Hi Taomeow,

 

are you still interested in this topic? I'm a student of the taiwanese lineage of Maoshan Qimen Dunjia and encorporate this technique (amongst others) into my consultations and coachings.

Edited June 4, 2017 by YFS
Typo

[Taomeow]

Yes, I am.  Tell me more, please.

[YFS]

Sure, I'd be happy to   Is there anything specific you'd like to talk about?

Personally I use Qimen for virtually every kind of situation or question. It's a great technique, e.g. for understanding interpersonal relationships, bringing projects into fruition or even checking the Fengshui of a site from afar. It can also be used like Bazi Suanming or Ziwei Doushu for analyzing the personal potential and life cycles of people, based on the date and hour of birth.

 

[Taomeow]

Great, thank you. 

 

I would like to start with Ba Shen, Yi Ma, and Kong ( I'm pretty fluent with the rest of the Qimen "tools").   

Edited June 4, 2017 by Taomeow

[YFS]

Ah those can be quite extensive topics, especially regarding the Bashen. Are there specific cases or Shen that you want to talk about?

In general, the Yima causes fluctuations of any kind within the specific sphere of its palace. The emptiness of a palace may point to a lack of drive or power regarding the specific palace/s or even the absence or unwillingness of the empty representatives concerning our question. An empty hour even points to a general futility or lack of energy regarding the whole situation. As I'm sure you know, detailled interpretations are only possible for specific questions, so I can only talk about the general case here

[Seatle185]

I know the best way to learn would be with a live teacher, but are there any books you might recomend?

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, YFS said:

Ah those can be quite extensive topics, especially regarding the Bashen. Are there specific cases or Shen that you want to talk about?

In general, the Yima causes fluctuations of any kind within the specific sphere of its palace. The emptiness of a palace may point to a lack of drive or power regarding the specific palace/s or even the absence or unwillingness of the empty representatives concerning our question. An empty hour even points to a general futility or lack of energy regarding the whole situation. As I'm sure you know, detailled interpretations are only possible for specific questions, so I can only talk about the general case here

 

Anything you may want to share will be appreciated.  Resources, teachers (yes, in Taiwan too...), examples of how you use it in specific cases.  I'm all ears. 

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, YFS said:

Are there specific cases or Shen that you want to talk about?

Hi) I have a specific case.

 

Quote

50 Now while Cao Cao was in the midst of his march toward Xiaopei, a tornado sprang up and the howling gale tore down one of the banners and broke the staff. Cao Cao called together his advisers and leaders to ask them what this portended.    
51 Xun Yu said, "From what direction was the wind at the time, and what was the color of the flag?"    
52 "The wind was from the southeast, and the flag was blue and red."    
53 "There is only one interpretation: A raid on the camp will occur tonight."

http://www.threekingdoms.com/024.htm

A question to you and TM:

I understand you discuss different schools of divination here. Which specific school this case might be most likely of?

Thanks guys.)

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Hi) I have a specific case.

 

A question to you and TM:

I understand you discuss different schools of divination here. Which specific school this case might be most likely of?

Thanks guys.)

 

That's Houtian/Luoshu analysis, or I Ching/bagua/wuxing, i.e. rather generic classical feng shui (in the broad sense, not in the "applied to dwellings" sense.)  Although if Xun Yu belonged to a particular school, it may have been called something other than "generic classical feng shui," and in all likelihood was.   But I would make the same prediction if I was in Xun Yu's shoes.  The southeast trigram is Wind (in the Houtian bagua).  The nature of Wind the trigram is "penetration," "movement," "stirring things up by penetrating movement," which the "howling gale" illustrates in its extreme version.  Blue and red, the colors of Water and Fire, once we're in the trigrams territory indicate a destructive relationship.  Something like that. 

[YFS]

11 hours ago, Seatle185 said:

I know the best way to learn would be with a live teacher, but are there any books you might recomend?

Unfortunately there is no english book that I would wholeheartedly recommend. The books on the market are mainly quite basic and repeat the same stuff, and you still won't be any smarter. Then, some contain more case studies, but I have found these to be flawed as well. I don't even mean the different possibilities for constructing a Qimen chart, I can respect that. My school uses an alternative way to derive the chart number (e.g. 3 Yang), based on an oral transmission of the teachings, that you won't find in the books. But what I really criticize is this: They write something like "a Fuyin and Fanyin is bad." Period. But in which way exactly is it bad and what's the difference for the interpretation? In my system, there is a vast difference between these two and we even differentiate between two kinds of Fuyin that can appear.

 

The chinese books aren't much better, because they tend to hold back the "juicy" parts   Sure, they can contain huge lists of interpretation structures for every kind of question you might have, but they don't help you much with really interpreting them. An "okay" book I can recommend for starters is Qin Ruisheng's "Shipan qimen yuce xue" (秦瑞生 - 時盤奇門預測學).

 

 

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Anything you may want to share will be appreciated.  Resources, teachers (yes, in Taiwan too...), examples of how you use it in specific cases.  I'm all ears. 

Okay let me think about specific, interesting cases....

 

If you ask me directly for recommendations for teachers, I would recommend my own teacher, Dr. Alejandro Penataro. He was born in Spain, went to Germany to study Chinese and wrote his Phd-thesis about "Divination arts in Imperial China: the prognostication system Qimen Dunjia". He was accepted into the taiwanese Maoshan lineage and is recognized today as daoist master. He's living in Taiwan but teaches all over the word. He was just here in Germany two weeks ago to teach an advanced class for Qigong (Wuqin zhi xi) and daoist alchemical practices.

Personally for me, coming from an academic background in Chinese and Japanese studies as well, I think it's great to have a teacher who not only knows about the theoretical side, but also lives the teachings. For Qimen, there hardly is a deeper school that is publicly available. For example, we incorporate the 12 Qi phases into our interpretation of the heavenly stems, I've seen no other school using this.

On his website, you can check out some free introduction videos in English, if you like. http://daomac.com/courses/resources-media-free-lessons-and-conferences If, by any chance you would be interested in studying with Dr. Penataro, you can drop me a message and I can help you get in touch, as he's always extremely busy. Also, if you already have extensive Qimen knowledge and just want to delve into specific topics, it's possible to just take individual lessons with the teacher.

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Hi) I have a specific case.

 

A question to you and TM:

I understand you discuss different schools of divination here. Which specific school this case might be most likely of?

Thanks guys.)

I have nothing to add to Taomeow's great answer, that would be my guess as well.

[Taomeow]

Thank you, YFC.  I'll be sure to check out your teacher's site and follow up. 

[YFS]

13 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Thank you, YFC.  I'll be sure to check out your teacher's site and follow up. 

You're very welcome! At the bottom of the site, there are also some teasers of advanced classes that took place in Russia (English with Russian translation). Let me know if you have any questions about our system

[YFS]

On 5.6.2017 at 11:47 AM, YFS said:

 

On 5.6.2017 at 1:20 AM, Taomeow said:

 

Anything you may want to share will be appreciated.  Resources, teachers (yes, in Taiwan too...), examples of how you use it in specific cases.  I'm all ears. 

Okay let me think about specific, interesting cases....

 

Hi everyone,

it's been a while but I have not forgotten about this topic. Yesterday I was asked to analyze an extraordinary case and it might be interesting for you as well. I've been asked to check the situation of a woman who has just "outed" herself to her parents as transsexual, wanting to become male and actually already receiving hormonal treatment. The parents wanted to know if this was "just a phase". Please follow this link to see a screenshot of the chart: https://gyazo.com/d36f7072652d49dd4d6fcde55f61af47

 

Now this chart answers the question of this being just a phase with a definitive and big no. For me the  most interesting points concern the state of the woman, who is represented here by the heavenly stem Geng (Yang-Metal), which represents a huge potential and urge for transformation and change. It is combined and conflicting with the heavenly stem Ji (Yin-Earth), which can represent certain forms of womanhood.Furthermore, the woman is inside an "empty palace", which here may point to an overall restlessness and a lack of self-confidence and to take the process further on her own, hence the act of outing to receive support from the parents (they are very close).

The whole chart displays some conflict situations and a big urge for change. The woman knows what she wants and did not tell this to her parents just in order to shock them, but because she actually feels that she was born into the wrong sex.

 

I've also checked her birth chart with Qimen Dunjia and found some big potential for transsexuality as a central theme for her life.... With this knowledge, I could reassure the parents and maybe help them cope with the situation and support their child. As this was also quite the extraordinary question and scenario for me, I thought it may be of interest for you as well to see what kinds of topics we can examine by means of these ancient chinese techniques  

 

 

[Taomeow]

Thank you, YFS!  Missed this earlier...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Daeluin]

Jack Chiu has an english book on each of these arts:

http://www.acmc.com.hk/Books.aspx

 

I've only explored his book on Wen Wang Gua, but found it rather clear and more complete than other resources, without seeming to be intentionally withholding information.

[Daeluin]

On 6/23/2017 at 8:51 AM, YFS said:

The whole chart displays some conflict situations and a big urge for change. The woman knows what she wants and did not tell this to her parents just in order to shock them, but because she actually feels that she was born into the wrong sex.

 

Not to derail, but I sometimes wonder if today many people are born the "wrong sex," for a purpose.

 

Personally, I've been told most of my past lives have been male, but the most recent few were female. My read on this is that my masculinity was restricting my development and I needed a better way to learn qualities of receptivity and non-action. Now here I am male again, presumably tasked with bringing those lessons to fruition within the body of my main momentum.

 

Perhaps for some the strong dilemma of being in the wrong body might mask - draw attention away from - the purpose this new paradigm of being might be helpful for. I wonder how these arts might help reveal the lesson.

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, Daeluin said:

 

Not to derail, but I sometimes wonder if today many people are born the "wrong sex," for a purpose.

 

Personally, I've been told most of my past lives have been male, but the most recent few were female. My read on this is that my masculinity was restricting my development and I needed a better way to learn qualities of receptivity and non-action. Now here I am male again, presumably tasked with bringing those lessons to fruition within the body of my main momentum.

 

Perhaps for some the strong dilemma of being in the wrong body might mask - draw attention away from - the purpose this new paradigm of being might be helpful for. I wonder how these arts might help reveal the lesson.

 

I think the thread can stomach a slight derail, it's not that active, the arts are rare and the OP has only dipped a toe as of now.   Only so many hours in the day...  and I just ordered a new book on the I Ching/Yijing which is my main area of divinational experience, something translated for the first time and apparently quite up my alley, linking the oracle to the earlier shamanic tradition...  But the time will hopefully come to expand into Qimen et al in earnest...

 

I think quite a lot of "wrong sex" issues are wrong conditioning issues, wrong family/social situation issues, artificial developmental/hormonal backdrop issues -- if you remove all of these and are left with "pure" "for a purpose" cases, we would need another ten thousand years of history with all men reincarnating as women multiple times -- being traded for two goats and a sack of wheat, beaten daily because the law tells the father, brother and husband it's their duty, burned at the stake because they are a vehicle of evil and an instrument of the devil, having their feet mutilated by binding for a thousand years, wearing "sexy" clothes with no pockets for a few thousand years because they are not allowed to own any property and if there's money to be had, it can only be in the husband's pocket, being executed by stoning for looking at a man, sent to nunnery or to a brothel for failing to fetch a suitable husband, experimented on by doctors who would cancel natural labor and birth in favor of a scientific approach (beginning with sticking a hand, unwashed after cutting open cadavers ten minutes earlier, into the labor passages to pull the baby to speed things up), well, OK, I'm not derailing it any further but you got the picture.  All modern men who complain about modern women being all wrong would have to reincarnate as women thousands of times to find out why. 

 

That paragraph belongs elsewhere, I know... 

   

[Daeluin]

Yes, exactly.... in my case I'm told I was mostly female in monastic situations or tribal ones. I'm not sure how much of the patriarchal exploitation I participated in given these 'protections.' And yet in this life I find myself very sensitive and understanding of these issues, and very connected to the importance of tapping into them.

 

Part of this is being raised by a single mother, whom in the early 80's had much difficulty in raising me alone. Growing up I was very sensitive to her struggles and the inequalities which she so strongly fought. And yet there is something much deeper - I was often bullied physically and verbally, yet something inside did not know how to lift a finger in defense, but only walk in acceptance.

 

The tapestry of change within momentum is vast and complex, and I know there are myriad origins for these experiences. The experiences of being female I only know were very important for me. You are probably right about how much time would be needed for every man to experience "his" feminine counterpart. I don't know, but it seems things are priming for something that isn't so far off... perhaps the earth herself has a new role to play in setting the balance.

[Taomeow]

19 minutes ago, Daeluin said:

Yes, exactly.... in my case I'm told I was mostly female in monastic situations or tribal ones. I'm not sure how much of the patriarchal exploitation I participated in given these 'protections.' And yet in this life I find myself very sensitive and understanding of these issues, and very connected to the importance of tapping into them.

 

Part of this is being raised by a single mother, whom in the early 80's had much difficulty in raising me alone. Growing up I was very sensitive to her struggles and the inequalities which she so strongly fought. And yet there is something much deeper - I was often bullied physically and verbally, yet something inside did not know how to lift a finger in defense, but only walk in acceptance.

 

The tapestry of change within momentum is vast and complex, and I know there are myriad origins for these experiences. The experiences of being female I only know were very important for me. You are probably right about how much time would be needed for every man to experience "his" feminine counterpart. I don't know, but it seems things are priming for something that isn't so far off... perhaps the earth herself has a new role to play in setting the balance.

 

I hope you're right...  although I see mostly indicators pointing in the opposite direction.  But I know from taiji that to go anywhere, you start by making a move/gaining inner momentum in the opposite direction. (The "there and back jin" )  So I hope that might be what it is...

 

I always appreciate it when a man "gets it," and I know it is a kind of strength and security, some sound, sane wholeness of spirit in the making.  This.  Being a man who gets it.  It's a prerequisite for a whole lot of unconfusion.  

 

I remember only a few of my past lives or whatever they are (and don't quite trust it when someone else looks into that for me, I trust my every-which-way memory more -- genetic and subtle and macrocosmic or whatever it is, I think I might have less "junk DNA" than average, something is unblocked that is "normally" blocked...)   In all of the lives I can remember I was a woman.  But in this-here life, my parents did not quite approve of it -- they gave me a male name before I was born and called me by that name half the time, and my mom didn't teach me any "woman" things (even the stuff "all mothers" tell their daughters I had to learn from my peers) while my dad raised me as a tomboy, highly valuing (and demanding) strictly male virtues of me.  This conditioned the first 13 years of my life -- I did quite the opposite of what you describe, i.e. I responded with a physical attack to any attempts at bullying or whatever I saw as disrespect, and in general spent much of that formative period fighting like a warrior -- no retreat, no surrender.  And then almost overnight hormones (or destiny?) kicked in and I wanted nothing to do with that kind of me.  I was a girl and I only wanted girl things.  Took me a quite a long time to find an inner place where those two things, the yin of me and the yang of me, work together without excluding each other, but I did.  I understand now...  What we were sold as "man" and "woman" are both wrong.  I know what each of us is really "naturally" like now. 

 

Not that I don't cringe every single day when exposed to what most men and women today think about it.  But I don't have to argue with them.  They'll find out, in due time...    

 

 

[Brian]

For some reason, it seems appropriate to mention this here...

 

When you ride a bicycle and want to turn left (for example), you push forward gently on the left handlebar, turning the wheel slightly to the right.  This creates an imbalance which you then "catch" and maintain by gently pulling back on the left handlebar.  You literally turn right to turn left, and you turn left to turn right -- then, as you are falling into the curve, you hold the system in a state of dynamic equilibrium until it is time to reverse the process.

 

With practice, one learns without even being aware of the process, to bypass the process and alter the dynamic equilibrium by merely shifting one's center.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Brian

[Daeluin]

Interesting, @Taomeow. Now I recall how my mother used to raise me in a slightly more feminine fashion - the first day I went to school, I had barrettes in my hair... she always loved my corn-silky hair and I never had a boy's haircut, and so on. A feminine seeming name, not having a father - quite an outcast to my peers.

 

Not having a father to role model masculine things was yet another form of protection from the patriarchal influences, I know recognize. It has taken some effort to reach into my own past and into the rare examples present around us, to really gain an understanding of the true potential of masculine power. Which of course is contained within its own balance of femininity, and thus, is "masculine" even the proper term.

 

I've also not trusted others in terms of my own past... and yet when that rare person arrives in my momentum with whom such a gift can be offered, it generally can be trusted. In such.... I've been able to tap into the general theme of the momentum of the tapestry and the roles I may have played.

 

It is interesting how extremes work. In "masculine" terms it seems that it is when the masculine power is at its weakest that it also is attempting to be the most forceful and dominant.... unable to contain itself, yet on trajectory to apply itself externally at all cost, it desperately clings to that brittle unsustainable path.... I suspect that if certain gravities are exercised, these energies may be dissolved upon the very foundation which they rest, without too much collateral damage. I don't know if that is where we are headed or not, or how soon.... yet I hope that whatever the change that comes, it is able to ply itself such that extreme trajectories and their future reboundings are not beyond the capacity of the deeper momentum to contain them. When all the historical layers of shaping are able to come into close enough resonance, something magnificent may be within reach.

[CloudHands]

"All modern men who complain about modern women being all wrong would have to reincarnate as women thousands of times to find out why."

I wonder about how reversible this sentence is. Like, is the human person naturally an abuser ? Is it linked to that conscience of suffering that it's kind of double pain ? Are we that twisted/cursed or is it the price to pay to get the will of finding something further/closer/else (depends on your religion). Abyss of reflection !

 

Anyway that's so, so true. There is something really beautiful in the conversation that happened here. We have come to a moment in human history it's possible to read this, that's not brand new yet it moves me deeply inside as a witness.

[Taomeow]

[9th]

On 7/20/2017 at 3:13 PM, Daeluin said:

When all the historical layers of shaping are able to come into close enough resonance, something magnificent may be within reach.

 

Ahh yes... but for which species?  Thats the eternal question isnt it.