KULARNAVA TANTRA - split

[C T]

I make no claim CT. Just saying a professor of Religious studies saying how KS is wrong.. When so many others have spoken so highly of it doesn't impress me. I would prefer people of renown before disparaging at tradition.

Was the claim not implicit when you declared the professor lacked the wisdom of realization? Perhaps i missed something. 

[Jeff]

The author Andrea R. Jain is Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Purdue University Indianapolis. She is not a credible source?

She definitely has some strong views stating that there is no such thing as an authentic tradition..

 

"The key message for Selling Yoga’s readers is that yoga has been perpetually context-sensitive, so there is no “legitimate,” “authentic,” “orthodox,” or “original” tradition, only contextualized ideas and practices organized around the term yoga. In other words, the innovations unique to pop culture yoga do not de-authenticate them simply because they represent products of consumer culture. "

[C T]

Kinda like you saying an empowerment is just an acknowledgement? Or you saying the Lankavatra Sutra isn't credible?

 

Just about every tradition that say's they can lead one to Buddhahood gives transmissions and empowerment's to aid one on the path. How many traditions use them and how many teachings and practice would you not be able to do without them?

 

That was my point and I admit I should have worded it better. At the same time it is my belief that the sustaining power is a continuous transmission.. i.e. sustaining.

Before we continue to play this tug of war, could you please clarify/verify if you have trained under a Vajrayana lineage and have received at least one empowerment from the lineage master? Details please if affirmative. 

[Bindi]

Not really when it comes to spiritual stuff. A professor of Religious studies without the Wisdom of realization doesn't really mean much to me.

 

You kinda miss a lot.

 

The professor of Religious studies noted that Muktananda quoted some sections of the Tantra frequently, while avoiding others sections that wouldn't go down well with a Western audience, presumably references to tantric sex.

 

This claim requires research into Muktananda's discourses and a familiarity with the contents of the Tantra, for which she is no doubt well equipped, unless you believe otherwise?

[Jonesboy]

Before we continue to play this tug of war, could you please clarify/verify if you have trained under a Vajrayana lineage and have received at least one empowerment from the lineage master? Details please if affirmative. 

 

I am sorry CT. I asked you questions that you have refused to answer.

 

One doesn't have to be a trained under a Vajrayana lineage do know that empowerment's are more than an acknowledgement. Nor does one have to be to answer my previous question about sustaining power and the Lankavatra Sutra.

 

Your quote of mine is not tradition specific nor does one need to be trained to answer it or to be provided an answer.

 

You seem to have a problem with me. I can admit when I am wrong and when i might word something wrong. I have yet to see the same insight from you.

 

I am really not interested in a tug of war with you CT.

[Jonesboy]

The professor of Religious studies noted that Muktananda quoted some sections of the Tantra frequently, while avoiding others sections that wouldn't go down well with a Western audience, presumably references to tantric sex.

 

This claim requires research into Muktananda's discourses and a familiarity with the contents of the Tantra, for which she is no doubt well equipped, unless you believe otherwise?

 

I am not familiar with Muktananda as he didn't write the sutra. Abhinavagupta wrote the sutra so I would go off of his teachings and not disparage a teaching and Abhinavagupta becuase of what someone else is doing...

[C T]

I am sorry CT. I asked you questions that you have refused to answer.

 

One doesn't have to be a trained under a Vajrayana lineage do know that empowerment's are more than an acknowledgement. Nor does one have to be to answer my previous question about sustaining power and the Lankavatra Sutra.

 

Your quote of mine is not tradition specific nor does one need to be trained to answer it or to be provided an answer.

 

You seem to have a problem with me. I can admit when I am wrong and when i might word something wrong. I have yet to see the same insight from you.

 

I am really not interested in a tug of war with you CT.

Then it would be safe to assume that whatever you generally and loosely express here with regards to Vajrayana, its custom, tradition, values and core practices are nothing more than mere speculation, subjective opinions and hearsay. 

 

I have nothing personal against you, sir... what i have a problem with is information that is inaccurate and steeped in speculation, yet made out to portray otherwise. That is a clear tendency of yours which you need to introspect seriously. Its not that you are wrong - probably just a bit over-enthusiastic. 

[Jonesboy]

Then it would be safe to assume that whatever you generally and loosely express here with regards to Vajrayana, its custom, tradition, values and core practices are nothing more than mere speculation, subjective opinions and hearsay. 

 

I have nothing personal against you, sir... what i have a problem with is information that is inaccurate and steeped in speculation, yet made out to portray otherwise. That is a clear tendency of yours which you need to introspect seriously. Its not that you are wrong - probably just a bit over-enthusiastic. 

 

You do know what assume means don't you?

 

I like to go here fyi: http://emahofoundation.org/index.php

 

And yes I have received at least one empowerment from him.

[Jonesboy]

Bindi,

 

Amazing how she missed this.

 

From the introduction of the Kularnava Sutra.

 

The Kularnava is an important text in one of the tradi- tions of Tantra with a pronouncedly practical bent of thought. It calls upon man to wake up to the rare privilege that has been given to him, e.g. human birth in which the being becomes conscious of himself and is offered a choice: a choice between stagnation and rapid progression towards his Godhead. He is warned of the consequences of losing himself in the rounds of transient excitements and pleasures He is also put on guard against the many pseudo-paths that abound in this world. He is asked to purify himself and told how to do it. In un- ambiguous terms he is told that a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy; the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman. In issuing these warnings, the adepts of the Tantra would seem to have anticipated the modern turn of mixing up sex with spirituality. It is a pity that a text like this has not received adequate publicity in the west where tantra-enthusiasts are on the wrong track.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

Bindi,

 

Amazing how she missed this.

 

From the introduction of the Kularnava Sutra.

 

 

 

 

The Kularnava Sutra is an important text in one of the traditions of Tantra with a pronouncedly practical bent of thought. It calls upon man to wake up to the rare privilege that has been given to him, e.g. human birth in which the being becomes conscious of himself and is offered a choice: a choice between stagnation and rapid progression towards his Godhead. He is warned of the consequences of losing himself in the rounds of transient excitements and pleasures He is also put on guard against the many pseudo-paths that abound in this world. He is asked to purify himself and told how to do it. In un- ambiguous terms he is told that a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy; the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman. In issuing these warnings, the adepts of the Tantra would seem to have anticipated the modern turn of mixing up sex with spirituality. It is a pity that a text like this has not received adequate publicity in the west where tantra-enthusiasts are on the wrong track.

 

From the little that I know of this text, "a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy" because wine is used ritually to induce ecstasy and is not to be confused with 'just drinking wine', same for sexual intercourse, "the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman" even though physically it is between a man and a woman.

 

What did I miss exactly?

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bindi

[C T]

You do know what assume means don't you?

 

I like to go here fyi: http://emahofoundation.org/index.php

 

And yes I have received at least one empowerment from him.

What was the empowerment for, if i may ask? 

[Jonesboy]

 

From the little that I know of this text, "a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy" because wine is used ritually to induce ecstasy and is not to be confused with 'just drinking wine', same for sexual intercourse, "the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman" even though physically it is between a man and a woman.

 

What did I miss exactly?

 

You added "even though physically it is between a man and a woman."

 

That is a new age thing and not what true tantra is about.

 

In the sutra there are 5 references to sex and I have already provided the first one. Let me list the others.

 

True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma

 

Therefore give up attachment, give it up wholly, sarvatmand, not by the mind alone, but by the whole of your being including your desire-self. If you cannot do it in your weak- ness, resort to the company of the Good. Holy company acts as medicine. He who has no company of the holy, no discrimination, no pure vision, he is indeed blind, how can he fail to take the wrong path? Engaged constantly in the round of food, drink, sex and sleep, one is no more than an animal. Only he who has knowledge is a man. Be a man, pursue the true object in life, acquire Knowledge of the Supreme Truth.

 

It makes a big difference in the Kaula worship whether the worshipper is an en- lightened person in the ways of Knowledge or he is an ignorant man. The wise, says the Tantra, intoxicated with the spirit of the ritual, do japa, meditate, praise, prostrate, instruct, query, delight themselves during the sessions. But the ignorant wander, roar, laugh, argue, weep, desire for sex and cavil. Slight, garru- lousness, argumentation without logic, indif- ference, fear, anger, these are to be avoided in the Circle of Puja. No quarter shall be given to egotism. All are eligible to respect in the eyes of the true Kaula.

 

In the presence of the Guru of the yogins, and in great centres of realization and pilgrimage and Ashrams, take care to avoid washing of feet, bathing, anointing with oil, cleansing of teeth, micturition, vomiting, shaving, sleeping, sex, conspicuous sitting, harsh speech, ordering, laughter, weeping, loosening of the hair, of the turban and the cloak, nudity, stretching of the legs, debate, acrimony, casting of blame, contor- tion of the body, producing of musical notes from the body, striking of the hands, dice, amusements, bouts of wrestling and the like and

dancing. They bring the curse of the Deity.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

 

You added "even though physically it is between a man and a woman."

 

That is a new age thing and not what true tantra is about.

 

In the sutra there are 5 references to sex and I have already provided the first one. Let me list the others.

 

True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma

 

Therefore give up attachment, give it up wholly, sarvatmand, not by the mind alone, but by the whole of your being including your desire-self. If you cannot do it in your weak- ness, resort to the company of the Good. Holy company acts as medicine. He who has no company of the holy, no discrimination, no pure vision, he is indeed blind, how can he fail to take the wrong path? Engaged constantly in the round of food, drink, sex and sleep, one is no more than an animal. Only he who has knowledge is a man. Be a man, pursue the true object in life, acquire Knowledge of the Supreme Truth.

 

It makes a big difference in the Kaula worship whether the worshipper is an en- lightened person in the ways of Knowledge or he is an ignorant man. The wise, says the Tantra, intoxicated with the spirit of the ritual, do japa, meditate, praise, prostrate, instruct, query, delight themselves during the sessions. But the ignorant wander, roar, laugh, argue, weep, desire for sex and cavil. Slight, garru- lousness, argumentation without logic, indif- ference, fear, anger, these are to be avoided in the Circle of Puja. No quarter shall be given to egotism. All are eligible to respect in the eyes of the true Kaula.

In the presence of the Guru of the yogins, and in great centres of realization and pilgrimage and Ashrams, take care to avoid washing of feet, bathing, anointing with oil, cleansing of teeth, micturition, vomiting, shaving, sleeping, sex, conspicuous sitting, harsh speech, ordering, laughter, weeping, loosening of the hair, of the turban and the cloak, nudity, stretching of the legs, debate, acrimony, casting of blame, contor- tion of the body, producing of musical notes from the body, striking of the hands, dice, amusements, bouts of wrestling and the like and

dancing. They bring the curse of the Deity.

 

Hope this helps.

If you don't like my sources, find your own, but please research the issue thoroughly first.

 

The Kularnava Tantra says that man must be taught to rise by means of those very things which are the cause of his fall. "As one falls on the ground, one must lift oneself by aid of the ground." So also the Buddhist Subhashita Samgraha says that a thorn is used to pick out a thorn. Properly applied the method is a sound one. Man falls through the natural functions of drinking, eating, and sexual intercourse. If these are done with the feeling (Bhava) and under the conditions prescribed, then they become (it is taught) the instruments of his uplift to a point at which such ritual is no longer necessary and is surpassed.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/sas/sas27.htm

Kularnava-tantra (“Ocean of Tantrism”), which gives details on the “left-handed” cult forms of ritual copulation (i.e., those that are not part of traditional Hindu practice).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism/Tantrism

The kulanarva Tantra goes so far as to say that union with God is possible only through sexual (though non-generative) union.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=f3s2IA2onvEC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=sex+The+Kularnava+Sutra&source=bl&ots=pc5AHR1Imn&sig=ycbvnqp_kGydLHP9nNk534R6o94&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYpsCw66_SAhVrrFQKHU9TBPAQ6AEIRzAJ#v=onepage&q=sex%20The%20Kularnava%20Sutra&f=false

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

If you don't like my sources, find your own, but please research the issue thoroughly first.

Hard to tell it was a source when you copied my quote but added a sentence to it to change it's meaning.

 

The Kularnava Tantra says that man must be taught to rise by means of those very things which are the cause of his fall. "As one falls on the ground, one must lift oneself by aid of the ground." So also the Buddhist Subhashita Samgraha says that a thorn is used to pick out a thorn. Properly applied the method is a sound one. Man falls through the natural functions of drinking, eating, and sexual intercourse. If these are done with the feeling (Bhava) and under the conditions prescribed, then they become (it is taught) the instruments of his uplift to a point at which such ritual is no longer necessary and is surpassed.

http://www.sacred-te...a/sas/sas27.htm

Yes it is talking about you can't suppress your desires and think that is liberation.

 

The previous paragraph helps.

 

The Tantrik Pandit Jaganmohana Tarkalamkara in his valuable notes appended to the commentary on the Mahanirvana Tantra of Hariharananda Bharati, the Guru of the celebrated "Reformer" Raja Ram Mohan Roy (Ed. of K. G. Bhakta, 1888), says, "Let us consider what most contributes to the fall of a man, making him forget his duty, sink into sin and die an early death. First among these are wine and women, fish, meat, Mudra and accessories. By these things men have lost their manhood. Shiva then desires to employ these very poisons in order to eradicate the poison in the human system. Poison is the antidote for poison. This is the right treatment for those who long for drink or lust for women. The physician must, however, be an experienced one. If there be a mistake as to the application, the patient is likely to die. Shiva has said that the way of Kulacara is as difficult as it is to walk on the edge of a sword or to hold a wild tiger. There is a secret argument in favor of the Pañcattva, and those Tattvas so understood should be followed by all. None, however, but the initiate can grasp this argument, and therefore Shiva has directed that it should not be revealed before anybody and everybody. An initiate when he sees a woman will worship her as his own mother and Goddess (Ishtadevata) and bow before her. The Vishnu Purana says that by feeding your desires you cannot satisfy them. It is like pouring ghee on fire. Though this is true, an experienced spiritual teacher (Guru) will know how, by the application of this poisonous medicine, to kill the poison of the world (Samsara). Shiva has, however, prohibited the indiscriminate publication of this. The object of Tantrik worship is Brahmasayujya. or union with Brahman. If that is not attained, nothing is attained. And with men's propensities as they are, this can only be attained through the special treatment prescribed by the Tantras. If this is not followed, then the sensual propensities are not eradicated and the work is, for the desired end of Tantra, as useless as harmful magic (Abhicara) which, worked by such a man, leads only to the injury of himself and others." The passage cited refers to the necessity for the spiritual direction of the Guru. To the want of such is accredited the abuse of the system. When the patient (Shishya) and the disease are working together, there is poor hope for the former; but when the patient, the disease and the physician are on one, and that the wrong side, then nothing can save him from a descent in that downward path which it is the object of Sadhana to prevent.

 

All Hindu schools seek the suppressions of mere animal worldly desire. What is peculiar to the Kaulas is the particular method employed for the transformation of desire. The Kularnava Tantra says that man must be taught to rise by means of those very things which are the cause of his fall. "As one falls on the ground, one must lift oneself by aid of the ground." So also the Buddhist Subhashita Samgraha says that a thorn is used to pick out a thorn. Properly applied the method is a sound one. Man falls through the natural functions of drinking, eating, and sexual intercourse. If these are done with the feeling (Bhava) and under the conditions prescribed, then they become (it is taught) the instruments of his uplift to a point at which such ritual is no longer necessary and is surpassed.

You next quote is highly misleading... again

 

Kularnava-tantra (“Ocean of Tantrism”), which gives details on the “left-handed” cult forms of ritual copulation (i.e., those that are not part of traditional Hindu practice).

https://www.britanni...nduism/Tantrism

Shaktism is an amalgam of Shaivism and mother goddess traditions. The Shaiva notion that Shiva’s shakti, not Shiva himself, is active is taken to the extreme—without Shakti, Shiva is a corpse, and Shakti is the creator as well as creation. Another important notion (partly derived from Yoga philosophy) is that throughout the body there are subtle canals that carry esoteric powers connected with the spinal cord, at the bottom of which the Goddess is coiled around the lingam as kundalini (“coil”); she can be made to rise through the body to the top, whereupon release from samsara takes place. Important among the Shakta Tantras are the Kularnava-tantra (“Ocean of Tantrism”), which gives details on the “left-handed” cult forms of ritual copulation (i.e., those that are not part of traditional Hindu practice); the Kulachudamani (“Crown Jewel of Tantrism”), which discusses ritual; and the Sharadatilaka (“Beauty Mark of the Goddess Sharada”) of Lakshmanadeshika (11th century), which focuses almost exclusively on magic. The goddess cults eventually centred around Durga, the consort of Shiva, in her fiercer aspect.

 

....The interpretation of doctrines and ritual practice is varied. Extreme Shakta communities, for example, are said to perform the secret nocturnal rites of the shrichakra (“wheel of radiance,” described in the Kularnava-tantra), in which they avail themselves of the natural and esoteric symbolic properties of colours, sounds, and perfumes to intensify their sensual experiences. Most Tantrists, however, eliminate all but the verbal ritual.

 

The kulanarva Tantra goes so far as to say that union with God is possible only through sexual (though non-generative) union.

https://books.google...a Sutra&f=false

Again you give a misleading picture, or an incomplete one.

 

Here is the rest of the paragraph.

 

In the Kalackra Tantra a Buddha reveals that man's own body is the true cosmos (hence, or course, the true laboratory also) and stresses the importance of sexuality as well as pranayama. Hence the body must be led to the perfection of health and maintained there, not mortified, for as the Hevajra Tantra says, the microcosmos is, as it were, a temple 'holy unto the Lord'. The Kularnava Tantra goes so far as to say the union with God is possible only through sexual (though non-generative) union. Bat this aim, which is radically mystical and not intellectual, requires a long and difficult path for realisation (sadhana), somewhat parallel indeed with the alchemical opus, for the body itself must be transmuted into a 'diamond body' (vajra-deha; we have already met with the expression chin kang shen,' p. 228). Moreover, and it brings us back to very familiar ground, 'the aim of this sadhana was the union of the two polar principles, sun and moon, fire and water, Siva and Sakti, in the body and soul of the practictioner.

 

Here is a link to the actual sutra so you can read and quote from it yourself.

 

Maybe we should start a new thread if you so choose. It is a very good sutra.

 

http://www.holybooks.com/kularnava-tantra/

Edited February 27, 2017 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

Hard to tell it was a source when you copied my quote but added a sentence to it to change it's meaning.

What quote specifically did I copy of yours but add a a sentence to it to change it's meaning?

 

Yes it is talking about you can't suppress your desires and think that is liberation.

 

The previous paragraph helps.

 

 

You next quote is highly misleading... again

 

 

The interpretation of doctrines and ritual practice is varied. Extreme Shakta communities, for example, are said to perform the secret nocturnal rites of the shrichakra (“wheel of radiance,” described in the Kularnava-tantra), in which they avail themselves of the natural and esoteric symbolic properties of colours, sounds, and perfumes to intensify their sensual experiences. Most Tantrists, however, eliminate all but the verbal ritual.

 

Yes, the secret nocturnal rites of the 'shrichakra' (apparently composed of nine triangles: five pointing downward, said to represent the yoni, or vulva, and four pointing upward, said to represent the lingam, or phallus) are described in the Kularnarva Tantra. These rites are interpreted differently by different groups, but regardless these secret nocturnal rites are apparently written in the Kularnarva Tantra, no matter how they are interpreted.

 

Again you give a misleading picture, or an incomplete one.

 

Here is the rest of the paragraph.

 

In the Kalackra Tantra a Buddha reveals that man's own body is the true cosmos (hence, or course, the true laboratory also) and stresses the importance of sexuality as well as pranayama. Hence the body must be led to the perfection of health and maintained there, not mortified, for as the Hevajra Tantra says, the microcosmos is, as it were, a temple 'holy unto the Lord'. The Kularnava Tantra goes so far as to say the union with God is possible only through sexual (though non-generative) union. Bat this aim, which is radically mystical and not intellectual, requires a long and difficult path for realisation (sadhana), somewhat parallel indeed with the alchemical opus, for the body itself must be transmuted into a 'diamond body' (vajra-deha; we have already met with the expression chin kang shen,' p. 228). Moreover, and it brings us back to very familiar ground, 'the aim of this sadhana was the union of the two polar principles, sun and moon, fire and water, Siva and Sakti, in the body and soul of the practictioner.

The aim of the sexual union is a high spiritual aim, good for them.

 

I will not enter into further useless discussion on this topic.

[Jonesboy]

From the little that I know of this text, "a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy" because wine is used ritually to induce ecstasy and is not to be confused with 'just drinking wine', same for sexual intercourse, "the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman" even though physically it is between a man and a woman.

 

What did I miss exactly?

That is yours. Notice the bold which you added.

 

Here is what I quoted.

 

In un- ambiguous terms he is told that a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy; the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman. In issuing these warnings, the adepts of the Tantra would seem to have anticipated the modern turn of mixing up sex with spirituality. It is a pity that a text like this has not received adequate publicity in the west where tantra-enthusiasts are on the wrong track.

Notice nowhere in the text does it state "even though physically it is between a man and a woman" nor did you make it clear that was something you were adding from either yourself or from a different source.

 

Anyways, lets move one..

[Bindi]

That is yours. Notice the bold which you added.

 

Here is what I quoted.

 

 

Notice nowhere in the text does it state "even though physically it is between a man and a woman" nor did you make it clear that was something you were adding from either yourself or from a different source.

 

Anyways, lets move one..

 

From the little that I know of this text,

 

indicates that this is my opinion, not a source that I am quoting

 

 

"a wine-drinker is different from the drinkers of ecstasy"

 

the ".." indicates that I am referring to your quote

 

 

because wine is used ritually to induce ecstasy and is not to be confused with 'just drinking wine', same for sexual intercourse,

 

this is my opinion, my understanding of this Tantra

 

 

"the union of delight is between the ascending Sakti and the presiding Lord above, and not between man and woman"

 

again the "..." are there to indicate this is your quote

 

 

even though physically it is between a man and a woman.

 

again my opinion (your bolding).

 

 

It would have been hard to tell this was a source simply because it was not a source, it was a personal opinion. 

 

The source I was referring to when I wrote "If you don't like my sources" was Andrea R. Jain, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Purdue University Indianapolis whom you declared not credible.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bindi

[rex]

This isn't exclusive to Daoism or Buddhism. There is the Vamachara in India:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vamachara

[Bindi]

Regardless, no mainline orthodox schools teach physical Tantra between man and woman. The only time the idea was reasonably widespread was during the Tang dynasty---when Buddhism took over, it vanished. The only place it (presumably) can still be found is Tibet and to do it with any benefit would require that you be a committed student that lives there.

 

Everything else lacks the transmission that makes it work. And a transmission is necessary because the history of this form of dual cultivation has it's origins with beings from another realm---It doesn't follow human energy channels without special help.

 

However, this is all rather pie in the sky fantastical stuff because, the fact remains, this type of dual cultivation is still only taught in tibet.

 

The Kularnava Tantra says that man must be taught to rise by means of those very things which are the cause of his fall. "As one falls on the ground, one must lift oneself by aid of the ground." So also the Buddhist Subhashita Samgraha says that a thorn is used to pick out a thorn. Properly applied the method is a sound one. Man falls through the natural functions of drinking, eating, and sexual intercourse. If these are done with the feeling (Bhava) and under the conditions prescribed, then they become (it is taught) the instruments of his uplift to a point at which such ritual is no longer necessary and is surpassed.

http://www.sacred-te...a/sas/sas27.htm

The Kularnava Tantra makes a fundamental error IMO in assigning the cause of the ‘fall of man’ to drinking, eating and sexual intercourse.

 

It follows that its cure for ‘the fall’ is based on this wrong premise, and as such it is equally flawed to my thinking.

 

If you find it persuasive that’s up to you and Jonesboy, this thread can be split for you to discuss its merits if you like.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

The Kularnava Tantra makes a fundamental error IMO in assigning the cause of the ‘fall of man’ to drinking, eating and sexual intercourse.

 

It follows that its cure for ‘the fall’ is based on this wrong premise, and as such it is equally flawed to my thinking.

 

If you find it persuasive that’s up to you and Jonesboy, this thread can be split for you to discuss its merits if you like.

So you don't believe that one getting caught up in passions of the local mind be it food, sex, drugs etc.. is a problem to spiritual growth? That those things could be attachments?

[Jetsun]

Seems like another religious tradition which thinks we have to transcend this human plane rather than embrace it, ie it is rooted in avoidance. 

 

Imagine how crap life would be without food, sex or beer 

[thursday]

Apeiron&Peiron, why do you think dual cultivation is only in Tibet these days or are you talking about a specific practise?

[Jonesboy]

Seems like another religious tradition which thinks we have to transcend this human plane rather than embrace it, ie it is rooted in avoidance. 

 

Imagine how crap life would be without food, sex or beer 

 

I think it is talking about the over indulgence of food, sex and beer. I am not sure of any tradition that doesn't warn against such things.

[Bindi]

I'll respond here because I wouldn't have much nice to say elsewhere and it appears that this was a split made for posts that were around a similar topic.

 

Anyways, people like to think that a serene state is all that is needed. Moving in the various bodies is usually understood as being something that happens when someone is affected by things. In meditation, the movement starts in the mind. To respond at all would be a failure. There are rather specific ontologies in hinduism and buddhism such that the only type of "non-action" that is possible is the withholding of engagement. Withholding a part of engagement (being "unaffected") is a better reaction than most people will have. But it would still be a failure in meditation and the specters will have had a victory over the practitioner.

 

In this situation, there is only success if acknowledgement is withheld from all of the arisings that can happen in meditation.

 

This is a very good place to examine this issue I think.

 

Not responding was my take on it, I read these other two responses, recognizing them as they are, and being unaffected by them, in Buddhist discussion of this episode. 

 

I agree that to not respond at all is the key, and that all previous work is towards this.

 

very interesting given the topic title

 

 

And given the topic title... if he had responded, could he of done so by still recognizing them as they are and be unaffected by them ?

what sort of responding did you have in mind?

[Jonesboy]

This is a little long but I thought it was very good from the sutra.

Pg. 61-64

 

And of yoga, dhyana, meditation, is an
important limb. Dhyana is of two kinds, gross
and subtle. When the meditation is upon a
Form, it is the gross, and when it is without
Form, the subtle. The grosser kind of meditation
with Form is resorted to when the mind is
very unsteady and needs to be given a prop, a
concrete object on which to fix itself so that it
may not wander away. But the object of both
the gross and subtle kinds of Dhyana is the
same: steadiness, immobility of mind.

When the Divine is conceived with form,
it is contemplated upon in its several limbs, feet,
hands etc., in the prescribed manner. When
it is conceived as without form, it is contemplated
upon as the Sacchidananda, allluminous,
without parts. It neither rises nor
sets, neither waxes nor wanes, it shines by itself
and enshines others without effort. Infinite,
formed in Light, not perceivable to the eye but
simply existent, it can only be felt, become
aware of by the mind. Knowledge of That is
Brahman.

And he whose movement of life-breath
is arrested, who is immobile like the stone,
knowing only the supreme Self and Abode is
called the yogi who knows yoga. Where there
is not even awareness, where it is still like
blocked water, that Dhyana devoid of Form is
called Samadhi. The Reality shines by itself,
not by mental thinking. And when the Reality
so shines on its own, one instantly becomes
That Itself. He who is as if asleep whether in
the condition of dream or of waking, neither
breathing in nor breathing out, immobile, he is
truly freed. Whose senses are without stir,
whose mind and breath are absorbed in his self,
who is like one dead, he is called the Jivanmukta,
liberated while yet living. He neither hears nor
smells nor touches nor sees, neither he knows
pleasure and pain, neither he exercises the
mind. Like a log of wood, he cognises nothing
nor is aware of anything; he is only absorbed in
Shiva, he is in samadhi. As with water thrown
into water, milk into milk, ghee into ghee, no
difference remains, similarly no difference there
remains between the jivatma and the
Paramatma, the soul and the Lord. Even as the
insect becomes a bee by force of concentration,
so can man become Brahman by dint of samadhi.
And once the self is separated from the gunas,
it is never the same again, just as butter
extracted from milk even when thrown again
into the milk does not get into the old state.

Just as one in heavy darkness sees nothing,
so indeed the yogin sees not the world which
does not hold his attention. This is the true sign
of Dhyana: as one does not see the world of
objects when the eyes are closed, so even when
they are open, the world is not seen. He who
knows the Brahman is aware of this worldmovement
only in the manner of men being
conscious of some itching on their bodies.
Of him who has known the supreme Reality,
above forms, above change, the very Mantras
with their presiding Deities become the servitors.
Of him who is founded in the sole consciousness
of the Self, every movement is worship, each
utterance is verily a mantra, each gaze is
meditation.* When identification with the body
is gone and the supreme Self is known, wherever
the mind moves there it is samadhi.

When the supreme Self is beheld, cut asunder
is the key-knot, hrdaya-granthi, that rivets all
involvements in the many strands of nature;
shorn are all doubts, doubts of higher possibilities
or of the veracity of the scriptures or
utterances of the Jnanins; all karma, legacy of
past action, dwindles away. When the masteryogin
attains to this pure and supreme State, he
cares not for the status of the gods or of the
mighty Asuras. To him who sees the Allpervading,
Peaceful, Blissful, Imperishable,
what can remain still to be attained or still to be
known? When knowledge and super-knowledge
are attained, when what is to be known is there
alive in the heart and when the state of Peace is
attained, neither yoga nor dharana, concentra-
tion, is necessary. Enough of all rules once the
supreme Brahman is known. When the winds
of the Malaya mount blow, of what use is the
p a l m y r a fan ? For him who sees himself as the
OM (or as t h e Self), there is neither checking of
breath nor closing of nostrils , neither yama nor
niyama, neither yoga based on padmasana nor
gazing at the tip of the nose. Yoga is the union
of jiva and the Atman, so declare the adepts in
yoga. And once that i s achieved a l l disciplines
preparatory or contributory to yoga are no more
incumbent.