KULARNAVA TANTRA - split

[thursday]

Apeiron&Peiron, you seem to have knowledge of things.. Like you said, I guess also that there are dual cultivation systems for different purposes, I wouldn't want to be part of the darker themed ones.. My guess is that certain lineages have reconnected to share lost knowledge and transmissions.. Anything could have happened, don't you think?

[dawei]

 what sort of responding did you have in mind?

 

It was semi-rhetorical.. I don't think his non-response or any response would cause him to differ that much. 

[Bindi]

It was semi-rhetorical.. I don't think his non-response or any response would cause him to differ that much. 

 

Because choosing to not respond is duality to you?

[dawei]

Because choosing to not respond is duality to you?

 

or it could be coming / going from a moment of non-duality

[Jeff]

Anything is possible. However, I have yet to see anyone genuinely benefit from the types of dual cultivation that are out there.

 

As a matter of principle, it seems wrong. All cultivation systems work around the principle that a person is a small universe; everything that is needed is already there, it is just a matter of reordering the disorder and transmuting the damaged stuff into something pure and helpful. I have met no one who is clear enough in their mind or pure enough in their intentions to actually use sexual cultivation without strengthening their attachments and amplifying their delusions.

 

Actually, to go back to Tibet, it is never a main cultivation method. It is only used under rather unique circumstances where a person (from current cultivation and past-life proficiencies) has a mind that is relatively clear (enough to be guided by the mind of lama) and has (for some reason or another) very difficult to unclog energy channels. The polarities involved in sex are used to break apart things that are lodged in the channels. This type of practice has no other use.

 

The other things that tend to go as sexual cultivation are in fact forms of vampirism. This is not a slur; in the alchemy manual put out by Jerry Alan Johnson, he goes out and directly states that the sexual cultivation methods were written about for the Yellow Emperor during the Tang dynasty and they are forms of vampirism. There are already many problems with this since nothing from the Tang dynasty had been preserved in full since its elimination with the arrival of Buddhism. But, even if we are to consider the instructions as good and all that is required, it is still vampirism and still a source of very bad karma. And it stands in stark contrast to the principle of the small universe.

 

And, on top of this, to make it work requires that you allocate awareness in a particular way such that the energy is moved around in the system to delay the climax. That type of jockeying is also out of sorts because it never lets the system enter into a state of genuine harmony. One area is put out of balance so that another can maintain balance.

 

Any imbalance gets in the way of actually maintaining genuine clarity. Even among practitioners here, there is a sort of plastic serenity that exists like a facade. No doubt, it probably feels genuine because it preserved the yang phase of some superficial energies of the body and their awareness is now filtering perceptions through it. But, if you are relatively clear in your perceptions, it's almost like looking at Donald Trump (to add a bit of levity to this discussion). They're totally sincere in what they say but totally clueless about what's actually going on.

 

Even on the subject of energy, though---there is a triadic structure to it. It is not just two phases of energy. There is a third type of cultivation attainment (gong) which is a stabilizer for the transaction of energy. It is the most important form of energy and it gets used up when different forms of low level manipulations are done. The thing is, you need to have a very high level of energy before you can even perceive it. If I hadn't been drawn into the practice of Falun Dafa, I wouldn't even have a name for it---so most practices don't make any mention of it because the practitioners never advance far enough to perceive it.

It is a sort of buffer to support the conscious transaction of energy (whether it is healing, sexual cultivation, or whatever) and it also functions as a sort of absolute bound regarding the energy that an individual soul can receive and use. Any type of overt action with energy will use it up. This is yet another reason why wu wei is considered important

 

So, for sexual cultivation, the "benefits" (with the exception of the unique instance that I mentioned can take place in Tibet) pretty much never outweigh the consequences.

 

 

My experience with dual cultivation (or with guru supported cultivation) is completely different than what you have described. Additionally, even at lower physical levels, anyone who has actually "loved" the person they were having sex with can feel the energetic difference of the flow.  There is a natural male-female energy purification loop that is created.  This loop can be raised to higher levels which can purify the energy bodies of both parties.  This is why the bible says that a woman shall "cleave to a man". In that two becoming one, both are raised higher.

 

Additionally, this same basic dynamic relates to why people's minds become quiet or they have high energy flows in the presence of a true guru.  They are effectively jointly cultivating, even though the student may not consciously realize the energy dynamic.

 

Tantric practices are not really about sex at all,  it is more about the joint (or shared) energy dynamic.  Men and woman just establish sort of natural polarities and with "openness" the energy flows.  All tantric and guru/master based traditions take advantage of this dynamic.

[Jeff]

Are you meaning with the physical aspect included?

 

As far as I am concerned, the physical and non-physical forms are completely different. (Although there are some who can still royally mess up the non-physical forms as well)

 

(This scheme of responses was in relation to Bindi's assertion that the Tantra was meant to be understood in a physical sense).

 

 

It is really about the intimacy (shared oneness) that allows the breaking down of the perceived individual sense of self.  But, loving actual sex can be very helpful to shut down the mind and the barriers that come with thinking.

[Jeff]

Are you meaning with the physical aspect included?

 

As far as I am concerned, the physical and non-physical forms are completely different. (Although there are some who can still royally mess up the non-physical forms as well)

 

(This scheme of responses was in relation to Bindi's assertion that the Tantra was meant to be understood in a physical sense).

 

 

It is really about the intimacy (shared oneness) that allows the breaking down of the perceived individual sense of self.  But, loving actual sex can be very helpful to shut down the mind and the barriers that come with thinking in practitioners that have not yet realized higher level stuff.

[Jeff]

Maybe so...

 

I started with the high level stuff and only know about this because I wanted to make sense of what other people were doing and also guide them to something better.

 

It's not pleasant to feel what's going on with other people in the next room as though it were physically going on with me.

 

With time, practice, and experience, those experiences have decreased.

 

I still can only recommend physical chastity with the goal of letting relations grow through the direct experience of energy in all things.

 

Well...that was my original thought*. Finding that there are some people who can mess with energy but not resolve their own attachments and issues has put me in a situation where I might need to revise this understanding too...

 

<<not directed at you, in case you were wondering>>

 

edit: spelling *thought

 

 

I totally agree that it can be very messy.  In such cases people often attach to other peoples stuff and get caught up in it themselves.  But that often happens if one has similar issues of there own that resonate with it.

 

It is definitely not a beginner level practice.  

[Jeff]

I still can't agree with the notion that "if someone has similar issues that resonate with it".

 

That is not my experience.

 

When it first happened, it was not an isolated sensation. It was as though someone else's energy body configuration was superimposed on mine. I could tell when it was there and when it was not. and I could feel things that were rather innocuous and things that were quite unhealthy.

 

It was like being around a type of magnetic field that can force another magnetic field to reshape. There were even times when this could manifest in terms of thought patterns when thoughts I had never strung together before started to match someone else's. It was only with a lot of cultivation practice and resonating with a constructive field (via full lotus and either sitting in nature or using prayers) that these things went away. And only when I got older did my field seem strong enough to resist different impressions in a way that was natural.

 

I started alchemy when I was 17.

 

 

Very interesting and what you are describing is different dynamic.  Was it with one specific person?  Someone you knew?

[Bindi]

My experience with dual cultivation (or with guru supported cultivation) is completely different than what you have described. Additionally, even at lower physical levels, anyone who has actually "loved" the person they were having sex with can feel the energetic difference of the flow.  There is a natural male-female energy purification loop that is created.  This loop can be raised to higher levels which can purify the energy bodies of both parties.  This is why the bible says that a woman shall "cleave to a man". In that two becoming one, both are raised higher.

 

Additionally, this same basic dynamic relates to why people's minds become quiet or they have high energy flows in the presence of a true guru.  They are effectively jointly cultivating, even though the student may not consciously realize the energy dynamic.

 

Tantric practices are not really about sex at all,  it is more about the joint (or shared) energy dynamic.  Men and woman just establish sort of natural polarities and with "openness" the energy flows.  All tantric and guru/master based traditions take advantage of this dynamic.

 

I would expect a 'true guru' to have completely transmuted sexual energy into a more refined energy form, therefore in his/her presence there would be no degree whatsoever of joint cultivation, and I can't see how the energy would be shared in a loop since the guru should be naturally radiating spiritual (not sexual) energy, but not taking on the presumably lower energy of the student.

 

Guru's that connect on a tantric level are in a different category, I imagine being in their presence is just one more avenue for staying in delusion since untransmuted sexual energy is still operating in your scenario.

 

 

If the sexual energy is transmuted into Ojas or spiritual energy by pure thoughts, it is called sex sublimation in western psychology. Sublimation is not a matter of suppression or repression, but a positive, dynamic, conversion process. It is the process of controlling the sex energy, conserving it, then diverting it into higher channels, and finally, converting it into spiritual energy or Ojas Sakti.

 

The material energy is changed into spiritual energy, just as heat is changed into light and electricity. Just as a chemical substance is sublimated or purified by raising the substance through heat into vapour which again is condensed into solid form, so also, the sexual energy is purified and changed into divine energy by spiritual Sadhana.

 

http://elmisattva-nonduality.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/from-sexual-energy-to-spiritual-energy.html

[rex]

 radiating spiritual (not sexual) energy

This is just a general observation and not directed at Bindi in particular, isn't one of the main points of tantra that spiritual and sexual energy are one and the same?

[Jeff]

This is just a general observation and not directed at Bindi in particular, isn't one of the main points of tantra that spiritual and sexual energy are one and the same?

Excellent point. Also, a true guru engages at the energy level that the person can handle and then helps them rise higher.

[Bindi]

This is just a general observation and not directed at Bindi in particular, isn't one of the main points of tantra that spiritual and sexual energy are one and the same?

 

Does jing = qi = shen?

[Jonesboy]

Let's say someone is at the level of shen and they are transmitting.

 

The other person has gone from feeling energy moving within them in there practice to the point where it becomes ecstatic/sexual. They are now feeling that energy in an ecstatic way as it hits obstructions.

 

As mentioned before if one has a shared obstruction people often will feel the energy as heavy, low or in a negative manner but when they begin to feel the energy as ecstatic that same energy they are feeling from others starts to hit them in a different way within the body... ecstatic/sexually. It still can bring up emotions/issues but it is hitting the body in a new way.. The person sending it isn't sending anything sexual.. it is just how we are feeling it.

 

A real guru will be sending light with no shared issues and just his presence and the energy one feels from his presence as it works on the obstructions. One may get increased silence or if they are at the stage where energy feels ecstatic they may feel that. They may also get both, increased silence and ecstatic energy.

 

As one clears more and more obstructions the energy flows through, it has nothing to hit and what use to be or perceived as sexual energy goes away more and more.

 

It is all light but it is our depth and clarity that changes that perception.

[Bindi]

Tantra is very much associated with one particular energy, kundalini, and its transmission through shaktipat, and sexual energy is one of the methods used in Tantra to initiate kundalini energy. Does this make kundalini energy sexual, or is kundalini just perceived as sexual when it is felt in the lower chakras?

[Jonesboy]

Tantra is very much associated with one particular energy, kundalini, and its transmission through shaktipat, and sexual energy is one of the methods used in Tantra to initiate kundalini energy. Does this make kundalini energy sexual, or is kundalini just perceived as sexual when it is felt in the lower chakras?

Tantra means much more than that.

 

Tantra (Sanskrit: तन्त्र) literally means "loom, warp, weave".[15][1][16]

 

The connotation of the word tantra to mean an esoteric practice or religious ritualism is a colonial era European invention.[17][18][19] The term is based on the metaphor of weaving, states Ron Barrett, where the Sanskrit root tan means the warping of threads on a loom.[1] It implies "interweaving of traditions and teachings as threads" into a text, technique or practice.

 

...In these and post-Vedic texts, the contextual meaning of Tantra is that which is "principal or essential part, main point, model, framework, feature".[15] In the Smritis and epics of Hinduism (and Jainism), the term means "doctrine, rule, theory, method, technique or chapter" and the word appears both as a separate word and as a common suffix, such as atma-tantra meaning "doctrine or theory of Atman (soul, self)"

 

...The earliest definitions and expositions on Tantra come from the ancient texts of Panini, Patanjali and the literature of the language-focussed, ritual-oriented Mimamsa school of Hindu philosophy.

 

..The word tantra, states Patanjali, means "principal, main". He uses the same example of svatantra as a composite word of "sva" (self) and tantra, then stating "svatantra" means "one who is self-dependent, one who is his own master, the principal thing for whom is himself", thereby interpreting the definition of tantra.[24] Patanjali also offers a semantic definition of Tantra, stating that it is structural rules, standard procedures, centralized guide or knowledge in any field that applies to many elements.

 

According to Anthony Tribe, a scholar of Buddhist Tantra, Tantra has the following defining features:[123]

1.Centrality of ritual, especially the worship of deities

2.Centrality of mantras

3.Visualisation of and identification with a deity

4.Need for initiation, esotericism and secrecy

5.Importance of a teacher (guru, acharya)

6.Ritual use of mandalas (maṇḍala)

7.Transgressive or antinomian acts

8.Revaluation of the body

9.Revaluation of the status and role of women

10.Analogical thinking (including microcosmic or macrocosmic correlation)

11.Revaluation of negative mental states

 

According to David N. Lorenzen, Tantra practices include the following:[64]

1."Shamanic and yogic beliefs and practices;"

2."Sakta worship, especially worship of the Matrkas and demon-killing forms of Hindu and Buddhist goddesses;"

3."Specific schools of Tantric religion such as the Kapalikas and Kaulas;"

4."The Tantric texts themselves."

 

A number of techniques (sadhana) are used as aids for meditation and achieving spiritual power:[124]

Dakshina: Donation or gift to one's teacher

Diksha: Initiation ritual which may include shaktipat

Yoga, including breathing techniques (pranayama) and postures (asana), is employed to balance the energies in the body/mind.

Mudras, or hand gestures

Mantras: reciting syllables, words, and phrases

Singing of hymns of praise (stava)

Mandalas

Yantras: symbolic diagrams of forces at work in the universe

Visualization of deities and Identification with deities

Puja (worship ritual)

Animal sacrifice

Use of taboo substances such as alcohol, cannabis, meat and other entheogens.

Prayashcitta - an expiation ritual performed if a puja has been performed wrongly

Nyasa

Ritual purification (of idols, of one's body, etc.)

Guru bhakti (devotion) and puja

Yatra: pilgrimage, processions

Vrata: vows, sometimes to do ascetic practices like fasting

The acquisition and use of siddhis or supernormal powers. Associated with the left hand path tantra.

Ganachakra: A ritual feast during which a sacramental meal is offered.

Ritual Music and Dance.

Maithuna: ritual sexual union (with an actual physical consort).

Dream yoga

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

As you can see tantra is much more than kundalini and sex.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Jonesboy

[Kar3n]

Tantra is very much associated with one particular energy, kundalini, and its transmission through shaktipat, and sexual energy is one of the methods used in Tantra to initiate kundalini energy. Does this make kundalini energy sexual, or is kundalini just perceived as sexual when it is felt in the lower chakras?

All energy, including kundalini, can be translated by the mind as sexual. If there is nothing within us for energy to "stick" to, there is no sensation/feeling, sexual, emotional or otherwise that lingers.

[Bindi]

Tantra means much more than that.

 

 

As you can see tantra is much more than kundalini and sex.

 

This seems to be a response to someone who said Tantra is only about kundalini and sex. My actual post was examining whether other people thought there was a difference between 'energy' (spiritual, kundalini, qi etc) and sexual energy, or if others thought all energies were equivalent as Rex seems to imply in an earlier post (below) that you and Jeff seemed to agree with, in fact Jeff referred to it as an excellent point. 

 

 

This is just a general observation and not directed at Bindi in particular, isn't one of the main points of tantra that spiritual and sexual energy are one and the same?

For the record, and just to be absolutely clear about this, I don't think all energies are equivalent, nor do I think that kundalini energy is sexual energy, this particular issue came up because I made an earlier post distinguishing between sexual energy and spiritual energy.

 

So where do you actually stand on this issue, are all energies the same?

Edited March 4, 2017 by Bindi

[Kar3n]

 

This seems to be a response to someone who said Tantra is only about kundalini and sex. My actual post was examining whether other people thought there was a difference between 'energy' (spiritual, kundalini, qi etc) and sexual energy, or if others thought all energies were equivalent as Rex seems to imply in an earlier post (below) that you and Jeff seemed to agree with, in fact Jeff referred to it as an excellent point. 

 

 

For the record, and just to be absolutely clear about this, I don't think all energies are equivalent, nor do I think that kundalini energy is sexual energy, this particular issue came up because I made an earlier post distinguishing between sexual energy and spiritual energy.

 

So where do you actually stand on this issue, are all energies the same?

It is all about refining ourselves, Bindi. 

 

When I think about my energy experiences, I relate them to cloth on and sometimes in my body. The feel has gone from a heavy, rough, hot burlap, to the finest, cooling, silk chiffon, and everywhere in between.

 

Energy is about the individual, Bindi. What might be the finest silk for one, might be burlap of kundalini for another.

 

There are no definitive answers for your questions. There are just too many variables. 

[C T]

 

So where do you actually stand on this issue, are all energies the same?

As potential, i would say yes. In relation to how energies manifest, there are multi-faceted means, whereby, in the eyes of some, it may seem to appear varied, but ultimately, its just a dot, a bindu, or bindi. 

[rex]

This seems to be a response to someone who said Tantra is only about kundalini and sex. My actual post was examining whether other people thought there was a difference between 'energy' (spiritual, kundalini, qi etc) and sexual energy, or if others thought all energies were equivalent as Rex seems to imply in an earlier post (below) that you and Jeff seemed to agree with, in fact Jeff referred to it as an excellent point. 

 

For the record, and just to be absolutely clear about this, I don't think all energies are equivalent, nor do I think that kundalini energy is sexual energy, this particular issue came up because I made an earlier post distinguishing between sexual energy and spiritual energy.

 

So where do you actually stand on this issue, are all energies the same?

My previous post was from the point of view of Shaktism where the energies are the same and practice involves resolving apparent dualities in skilful embodied practice. In regards to where I personally stand, irrespective of citing others views, is that of course I don't know for sure but keep an open mind while blundering around.

[Bindi]

My previous post was from the point of view of Shaktism where the energies are the same and practice involves resolving apparent dualities in skilful embodied practice. In regards to where I personally stand, irrespective of citing others views, is that of course I don't know for sure but keep an open mind while blundering around.

 

 Is it resolving apparent dualities or actually transforming sexual energy though. For example, True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma; others do but have carnal connection with women - ascended kundalini is 'True sexual union' - is kundalini actually sexual energy then in its spiritual dimension? I am referring to energy in the world of form, not in terms of ultimate reality.

 

 

Let me stress the Tantric view that sexual bliss is the cheap worldly substitute for transcendental Bliss. Sexual bliss (the bliss of pasus, animals, and humans in the lowest grade, wallowing in Malas or impurities) is only a way station to Satchidananda, the True Bliss of Transcendental nature.

 

True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma; others do but have carnal connection with women.

 

If by mere drinking of wine one were to attain fulfilment, all drunkards would reach perfection. If mere partaking of flesh were to lead to the high estate, all flesh-eaters in the world would come by immense merit. If liberation were to ensue by mere cohabitation with woman, all creatures would stand liberated by female companionship.- Kularnava Tantra

 

The quality of Bliss sublimates from animal to spiritual level; the measure of sexual Bliss pales in front of SatChitAnanda.

 

http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Kularnava-Tantra.pdf

​

[Bindi]

A slightly unenlightened list of defects which will disqualify potential students from initiation (from the Kularnava Tantra) ...

 

The Guru shall desist from taking for his disciple one who is of wicked descent; wicked; devoid of good qualities; ugly; disciple of another; heretic; impotent; fancies himself to be learned; with body of less or more or deformed limbs; lame; blind; deaf; dirty; struck with disease; excommunicated; foul of mouth; wearing any dress he likes; of ill-formed limbs, movements, gait, speech and look; sleepy; drowsy; lazy; addicted to vices like gambling; ever hiding himself behind cupboards, walls or pillars; mean; devoid of external signs of devotion though with devotion within; given to exaggeration in speech; dry; exiled; merely instigating others; cunning, impure regarding wealth and wife; given to perform what is prohibited and to omit what is enjoined; divulging secrets; ruining what is to be performed; cat-like (in stealth); crane-like (in deception); ever intent on finding loopholes in others; knowing magic; ungrateful; concealing what is within; treacherous; disloyal to his master; sinful; distrustful; ever doubting; not aspring for fulfilment; criminal; wanting to exact; angry; bearing false witness; deceiver of all; proud that he is the best of all; untrue; cruel; indecent in speech; talkative; of wrong object; of wrong reasoning; fond of quarrel; rebuking others without reason: foolish; unreliable; bore; slandering people behind their back yet speaking well before them; talking like a brahmana (though without that knowledge); plagiarist; self-laudatory; envious of good qualities; injurious; distressed; passionate; garrulous; given to evil company; condemned of all; harsh; angering others; transgressing usage; talking of his own ills; traitor to his master; deceiver of himself; gluttonous and lustful; thief; given to animal ways; hating, laughing, suffering, getting angry without any cause; laughing excessively, inactive, jesting bitingly; libidinous; shameless; inciting to false and wicked pursuits; given to jealousy, intoxication envy, ostentation, egotism, with mind that is jealous, rough, cruel, niggardly and angry; unsteady; miserable; coward; weak; benumbed; afflicted; una wakened in intelligence; dull; perplexed; overcome by care; a paramour; desireful and greedy; wretched; discontented; begging for everything; eating in profusion; cunning, creating confusion; crooked; devoid of devotion, faith, compassion, peace, rightful conduct; making fun of the words of his parents, Guru and the wise and the holy; creating disgust around the ingredients of Kula worship and too proud of service to the Guru; hated of women; fallen from the tradition; cursed by a Guru. Such are to be rejected.

[rex]

Is it resolving apparent dualities or actually transforming sexual energy though. ... is kundalini actually sexual energy then in its spiritual dimension? I am referring to energy in the world of form, not in terms of ultimate reality.

Good question, sorry I lack the knowledge and experience to even attempt to answer this with any authority beyond reporting what I have encountered in books. Beyond cross-referencing written sources and academic debate, access to a tantric teacher and practice within a kula will probably be the only satisfactory way of knowing.

 

Edit: punctuation

Edited March 5, 2017 by rex

[Jonesboy]

 

 Is it resolving apparent dualities or actually transforming sexual energy though. For example, True sexual union is the union of Para Shakti that is Kundali with Atma; others do but have carnal connection with women - ascended kundalini is 'True sexual union' - is kundalini actually sexual energy then in its spiritual dimension? I am referring to energy in the world of form, not in terms of ultimate reality.

 

 

To me it is clearly saying that it is not about sex at all, that it is about the union of the male/female, Shakti and Shiva and the bliss of Satchidananda that one experiences with that union.

 

It is saying that others do confuse it with sex in the physical but that is not a correct understanding.

 

It is also saying that the sexual/ecstatic energy one feels as one progresses is just a way station and not the goal.

 

 

Let me stress the Tantric view that sexual bliss is the cheap worldly substitute for transcendental Bliss. Sexual bliss (the bliss of pasus, animals, and humans in the lowest grade, wallowing in Malas or impurities) is only a way station to Satchidananda, the True Bliss of Transcendental nature.

.

...The quality of Bliss sublimates from animal to spiritual level; the measure of sexual Bliss pales in front of SatChitAnanda.

 

So what is Sachitananda?

 

An early mention of the compound word sacchidananda is in verse 3.11 of Tejobindu Upanishad,^[30] composed before the 4th-century CE.^[31][32] The context of sacchidananda is explained in the Upanishad as follows:^[33]

 

The realization of Atman.

(...) I am of the nature of consciousness.

I am made of consciousness and bliss.

I am nondual, pure in form, absolute knowledge, absolute love.

I am changeless, devoid of desire or anger, I am detached.

I am One Essence, unlimitedness, utter consciousness.

I am boundless Bliss, existence and transcendent Bliss.

I am the Atman, that revels in itself.

I am the Sacchidananda that is eternal, enlightened and pure.

— Tejobindu Upanishad, 3.1-3.12

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda