Understanding everything from Daoist Texts

[Arkady Shadursky]

Hello everyone.

In this thread I'd like to continue discussion about "if it is possible/impossible to get everything from Books" which has started here ( http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43462-correct-words-of-patriarchs/)

Back in time A.A. Khokhlov provided quotes from multiple Treatises where explicitly written that it's impossible to attain the Dao without the True Teacher (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/).

This shows us that it's not a position of a single writer, but position of entire Traditional Daoism.

I would say that if such great Patriarchs as Zhang Boduan, Liu Huayang and others were writing that one can't get full knowledge from books even if he/she is smartest and talented person, than its most likely they had reasons to write it.

This is the position of the Tradition (and also my point)
Thank you
---

Regards,
Arkady

Edited February 28, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Marblehead]

Hi Arkady,

 

While I agree that "getting everything" about Daoism from just books is highly unlikely, I will suggest that it requires first hand life experiences.

 

But I do believe that first hand, trial and error, experiences may be just as effective as having a teacher.

 

(But I'm not negating the need for a teacher for some people.)

[dawei]

In this thread I'd like to continue discussion about "if it is possible/impossible to get everything from Books"

 

provided quotes from multiple Treatises where explicitly written that it's impossible to attain the Dao without the True Teacher 

 

This shows us that it's not a position of a single writer, but position of entire Traditional Daoism.

 

It is a flawed premise and question because you are only talking about a narrow timeframe in the history of Daoism, starting around maybe 1200.   That is more like neo-modern Daoism when Buddhism and Confucianism was placed into the mix.   By that time, there are lots of books but in times prior, there were few books.  So the longer period of Daoism has fewer books so it would be misleading to base an argument on books and claim you talking the entire Traditional Daoism.  

 

You are only arguing that your system that relies in Xing and Ming and developed around 1200 onwards cannot be done without a true teacher.   If you believe that, then I will agree.  You need a true teacher.   I can't speak for everyone in the world as some awaken without even a book or a teacher.    

 

Is a true teacher better than a book?  I would generally agree.  

 

Is a book better than nothing?  I would generally agree.

 

Is a transmission from a book better than a true teacher?  I would generally agree.

 

Elsewhere we briefly discussed this and Awaken mentioned something I agree with:

 

 

The lately Daoist texts are very different from the early Daoist texts. 

 

The lately texts emphasize the chi. 

 

The early texts emphasize the Shen. 

 

The latly text talk about chi and light by some methods. 

 

The early texts talk about Shen and Hun dun by Wu truth, Wu Wei. 

 

These two are totally different ways.

 

If your going to follow a path of methods and doing, a teacher is likely needed to get the proper handle.

 

I would challenge anyone to read those who are claimed to have 'attained' the Dao from Fuxi up through the Celestial Masters and what do you see as the 'teaching moments' ?   A simply Q&A with another; a spirit/deity visit; a book with transmission embedded.   

 

What we seemed to have lost over the millenia are books with transmission because we no longer have teachers who can transmit in that way....  teachers who cannot, setup schools to do teaching directly.    

 

That's my opinion.

[MIchael80]

Hi Dawei!

 

I felt a strong Transmission when reading the "awakening to Reality" verses translated by Fabrizio Pregadio. I could feel it only when reading the verses not when reading the commentary.......and it was really powerful.

 

best

mIchael

[dawei]

Hi Dawei!

 

I felt a strong Transmission when reading the "awakening to Reality" verses translated by Fabrizio Pregadio. I could feel it only when reading the verses not when reading the commentary.......and it was really powerful.

 

Very nice

 

You raise something about the other side of the coin that even if text has some transmission it still takes one who is able to feel it, or better is naturally interacting with the energetic aspect.    

 

To me, this is an example of 'when the student is ready, the master will arrive'... but we should realize that it can include transmission via text or deities.

[Taoist Texts]

I would say that if such great Patriarchs as Zhang Boduan, Liu Huayang and others were writing that one can't get full knowledge from books 

 

In original Zhang Boduan's text there is no 不可 - impossible.

[awaken]

There are many 邪師evil teachers , 偽師fake teachers.

 

These evil teachers and fake teachers like to advertise a lot about true teachers.

 

Anyone who wants to learn dao won't be attracted by these evil or fake teachers.

 

If you have a real heart, you see a real teacher.

 

If you have a evil heart, you will treat a evil teacher as a true teacher.

 

To look inside your real heart is the first step, not to advertise every day for your teacher.

 

In Chinese, we don't call Daoist texts, we call '經'.

 

Anyone who want to learn dao should know the different meaning of 經 Jin and 檔案 texts.

 

Why Jin 經 to be a Jin and can last for thousands of years?

 

Because it is sure to be right by many real practices for thousands of years.

 

These books can only be called 經Jin.

 

Not every can be called Jin 經。

 

 

If a teacher teach against the TTJ 道德經, we can make sure he is absolutely a fake teacher.

 

DDJ is the basic Jin of daoism.

 

A fake teacher vs. a right Jin

 

I won't choose the fake teacher.

 

 

Except DDJ, there still are many Jin in Chinese.

 

If you don't know anything about dao, you will be easy to be cheated by fake teachers.

 

You don't know what is right or wrong.

 

And you will waste all your time to do a lot of advertisements for these fake teachers.

 

And ask everyone to give money to your true teacher.

 

It is really sad.

 

You just want to learn dao.

 

But you become a seller of a fake teacher.

 

 

 

 

Not only fake teachers, but also fake Jins.

 

If you don't read, you have no ability to distinguish the fake teacher.

 

But it is easier to see the Jin is right or wrong.

 

We can start from DDJ, Wu gen pian ...etc these famous Jin.

 

If we can understand these Jins first, it's not easy for us to be cheated to become a seller of a fake teacher.

Edited March 2, 2017 by awaken