Right/wrong, good/bad, positive/negative, etc

[Starjumper]

There is a classical Taoist debate on right and wrong in Taoism in the porn thread which could use it's own thread, so here we go.

 

The human brain functions as a go/no go machine.  It's as if it were a binary system and it is always choosing between good/bad, right/wrong, safe/unsafe, edible/unedible.  That is the inescapable result of evolution and humans apply it automatically, without thinking, to everything they are exposed to.  the thinking almost always comes after the fact when a person tries to make sense of their decision.  As long as your brain is functioning this will happen, and it happens to enlightened masters as well as to immortals.

 

Whether something is seen as good or bad depends on the persons point of view, their attachment to the situation, and their distance from it.

 

For example if some predator kills some prey animal on some planet circling some star in some galaxy far away then we don't really give a damn about that do we?  But if it happened right in front of your face and you saw the prey animal suffering as it slowly died then you may form an opinion, and the opinion would be the result of a feeling, and the feeling would be the result of your values.  The opinion comes last, trailing the feeling and yet for those who are terribly mental, they think (haha) that it's all about their thinker.

 

So how does this apply to Taoism.  Well it depends on what you are referring to, some use the Tao and Taoism interchangeably,  So one speaks of the Tao as being the entire universe and someone thinking of Taoism the philosophy and disagrees.

 

Some say everyone is in the Tao but then Lao Tzu (sounds like: Lousy)  said that most have lost the Way.  If everyone embodied the Tao then the philosophy of Taoism would be unneeded, because Taoism is to remind people what is required to become the Way.

[Marblehead]

I agree with you and have spoken to this myself on numerous occasions.

 

Thanks for starting a thread devoted to the concept.

 

Yes, duality is the way our brain works.  Our values are what we base our "right/wrong" upon.

 

Many people have lost the Way because they found it necessary to become "politically correct".  Nature isn't politically correct most of the time.

[dwai]

Actually We are able to also discern between relative goodness or badness. That suggests we are capable of fuzzy logic, in which there are more than just "yes or no/on or off" states.

 

To state we are binary in logic is a reductionism that doesn't factor all the "in-between" states we regularly encounter and respond to.

 

Do I need to give examples therein?

 

Another factor I think is cultural. Western culture today is more binary than eastern cultures, where we have more awareness of in-between states....

[Starjumper]

No need for examples, I agree that using binary as an example was going too far.

 

BUT, it seems to me that analyzing the gray areas is still used by many with untrained minds to assist one in making a right/wrong choice, only the choice is from the middle zone, from looking at things that are closer to the center, picking a couple of points that are not at the ends of the spectrum but more in the middle, people in general still tend to make a judgement as to better/worse.  That would be describing the common immature mind, the mind of people who only look at one side of the story; and I agree, the West is overflowing with immature minds thanks to the fundamentalist origins of our society and the training they receive as part of the social engineering fostered by the globalists, the goal of which is to create immature minds.  People to whom ethics matters and who are intellectually mature will look at both sides of the story and be able to debate either side equally well.  I have read about psychological research that shows that Easterners are much better at noticing the background of things and that it influences their decisions, and I would say that this is the result of a general non-fundamentalist attitude in the origins of their society.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

No need for examples, I agree that using binary as an example was going too far.

 

In all fairness though, Dwai has already experienced non-duality whereas most people have not.  A teacher generally knows more than the students know. 

[silent thunder]

I have to confirm your words sir... for I read this and immediately thought... "whoa, this is good stuff." 

[Brian]

Our "control panel" looks something like this:

 

but people typically use it like this:

[silent thunder]

whoa... that is quite the set up.

[dwai]

Our "control panel" looks something like this:

 

but people typically use it like this:

 

May I come record here?

[Stosh]

There are ideas to which one does apply dualistic thinking , to act or not, is somewhat restricted to two options, but not all ideas are confined to such limited choice. The brain makes associations and pumps out a summation which is usually vague , no one experiences true dualism. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Stosh

[[email protected]]

The things are not a subject of right or wrong while they are happening in a natural way. And so we are. If you do smth due to vital necessity then let me suppose it is natural. But as soon as you do smth with any intent, then your human essence is involved and it can contradict the nature of Tao.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Brian]

May I come record here?

The Asheville area has a rich music culture. You would probably like it here!

 

The music department at my son's school includes a 96-channel SSL C200 console.

 

Moog is here.

 

There are several noteworthy recording studios in the vicinity but Echo Mountain is the one people come from all over to use: https://www.echomountain.net

[dwai]

The Asheville area has a rich music culture. You would probably like it here!

 

The music department at my son's school includes a 96-channel SSL C200 console.

 

Moog is here.

 

There are several noteworthy recording studios in the vicinity but Echo Mountain is the one people come from all over to use: https://www.echomountain.net

 

nice...one of my buddies did his research in Asheville....on fuel-cell technology in the early 2000s.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Daoism recognizes that axiomatic concepts which are predicated on verbal agreements are arbitrary and that although they can be used to represent nature, they are not nature itself.

Good and bad in Daoism isn't about cultural relativism, it is about intention.   Benefit and disaster share the same root, so not only is there a difference between good and bad, but actually, most of the things we think are good are actually going to lead to badness in the long run.

Dao De is about recognizing the nature of situations, not just the surface appearance of those situations.

We use the tools of Daoism in order to observe what is natural and then judge things on the merit of how they exist in the open void of nature rather than the axiomatic superstructures of human thought.  

There isn't really a debate in Daoism, since the issue is more or less decided and has been since the time of Laozi.

Gong De as a principle is something that harmonizes different meanings together so that they become part of the same virtue, so whether we are talking about Laozi, Zhuangzi, the celestial masters, zhang boduan or anyone else, they are all basically following the same principle, which is Qing Jing Wu Wei (clear and quiet non action) as a way to develop Gong De (the accumulated work of virtue).

If we had to make a statement about whether or not Daoism would be supportive of watching pornography, the answer is obviously no.  Pornography is predicated upon a set of very destructive human desires and causes people to give in to their lesser selves, so a pure approach to Daoism would indicate that porn is not ok.   If we are just people who are working on practising the principles of Daoism and want to get some benefit from it as we get older, then it is really a matter of personal ethics as to whether we choose to watch porn or not.   Some people feel it is perfectly acceptable, others don't, case closed.

I love cigars and smoke a couple cigars a month.  Does Daoism support my occasional cigar habit?  Hell no!   But I still like cigars and choose to make the trade off that having the occasional puff entails.   

If you tried to follow the ancient virtue of the Dao in modern society, you would go completely nuts, and the only way your could really achieve it perfectly would either be if you became a hermit or if you are a freaking saint.

Most of us just get enough benefit from Daoist practice to be healthy and happy and that is good enough  :) :)

Some people are just navel gazers who like stories and believe in magic while never achieving anything concrete in their practice.  to each their own.

[AussieTrees]

There are many circumstances that are stuck at the extremes,good v bad,hate v love,light v dark.

Many of these extremes can be altered to neutral,neutrality is the balance,seek neutrality.

[Gerard]

But killing and doing any harm is wrong. This has got nothing to do with duality and right-wrong views like the way one dresses up, blinks their eyes when talking, spiritual practice followed, eating an apple before a steak and so forth.

 

The noble eightfold path was set by The Buddha precisely for that very reason: attain nirvana and liberation from suffering.

 

Taoists don't go around and kill randomly people they don't like in Mt. Hua.

 

Same can be said with other noble spiritual traditions.

 

The karmic consequences for taking life as an act of hate or violence have very serious karmic consequences.

 

I'm not a hungry lion living in the Serengeti which will need to kill in order to survive!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

While currently drooling over that beast of a console it's also very important to remember that some truly epic stuff was made in places like this:

 

 

I'm liking whats being said and besides finding a good excuse to post images of awesome rigs i have little to add atm. Sorry for the upsettings

[Stosh]

delineate what harm is, I say its opinion.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

delineate what harm is, I say its opinion.

 

Well, sure, but still, we each have our own opinions.  I think the important thing is to not let them become harmful to our self and others.  Tolerance seems to be an appropriate word here.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Tolerance seems to be an appropriate word here.

Yes, but in moderation i think. Sometimes kindness is a gentle caress, sometimes its a hard slap (even though it seems like the latter is rarer).

 

I'm still digging the idea of taking a hermeneutic approach, details and wholeness depend on each other as well, both play important roles for the balance, motion and shifts.

Just a thought

[cold]

There is a field. Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing rightdoing there is a field. I"ll meet you there.

Rumi

 

I hope to arrive there one day.

[Stosh]

There is a field. Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing rightdoing there is a field. I"ll meet you there.

Rumi

 

I hope to arrive there one day.

nevermind , my humor is running low

Edited March 1, 2017 by Stosh

[[email protected]]

What is a concrete harm I think is anything that leads to death. May be there will be lots of discussion about it but I mean death without any possible reincarnation, so it is the end of ones life in any case.

Rgrds, Ilya

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

What people tend to miss is that the Journey West is a scripture and not just a story.

Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, Hedonism, the military, and society take a long walk together and each of them learns some pretty important lessons about the limits of idealism.

[Stosh]

What is a concrete harm I think is anything that leads to death. May be there will be lots of discussion about it but I mean death without any possible reincarnation, so it is the end of ones life in any case.

Rgrds, Ilya

So for those who Do have the reincarnation plan, like Buddhists ,  there is no possible harm that can be done, in their scenario ? is that correct?