Jed Mckenna on bliss

[Sunya]

i'm reading Jed Mckenna's Spiritual Enlightenment the Damnedest Thing, i suggest you all read it. it's amazing. if you want it, PM me.

 

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

 

"Wait a minute. Hold everything. How many of you think that? How many of you equate enlightenment with bliss or ecstasy or rapture or whatever? Hands up."

 

Several of them raise their hands. Mary, who was asking about Zen, doesn't raise her hand. A couple of others who I know are already beyond the First Step don't raise their hands either, but nearly a dozen do. I'm not surprised by this but I wish to use it as a springboard into a larger and more interesting topic.

 

I stand up and begin pacing back and forth across the fire from them. I give it a minute, let a little suspense build, and then let it out.

 

"Fuck bliss."

 

Several jaws drop.

 

"Bliss is nothing. It's not relevant. It's a pretty piece of candy that has lured you away from the real work of waking up. Get it out of your heads. I can't emphasize this enough. This is right at the very heart of the web of misconception that diverts countless millions of seekers away from their own awakening. This is exactly the kind of narcotic you have to break free of.

 

"Now, pay attention. The way to get something out of your head isn't to hear some spiritual teacher say it's bullshit. It's for you to drag it out and really shine a light on it for yourself. This bliss nonsense is a perfect example. Do you really think that enlightenment is going to be like a permanently extended sexual orgasm?" Muffled titters and chuckles. "Think about it. Think for yourself. That's the Golden Rule in this game: Think for yourself."

I pause to let that thought find a home.

 

"Enlightenment is not a peak experience. It is not a neverending cosmic orgasm. It is not an altered state of consciousness. It's not a happily-ever-after fairy tale. It's just waking up-as simple and as difficult as that. We've all been sold on the idea of an everlasting spiritual high that we can never know except in flashes and glimpses of which the mind cannot even retain a memory. That's the opiate and the masses are sucking it up. Permanent bliss is just heaven repackaged for a slightly hipper crowd.

 

"The larger issue here is how such a bizarre belief found it's way into your heads in the first place. That should be a pretty scary thought. If that foolish notion was so firmly rooted in your thinking, what else is in there? If you're thoughts and beliefs aren't your own, then who are you? You must re-examine your assumptions, and believe me, only a small fraction of them are visible. Unchallenged acceptance can define you and alter the course of your life. For instance, maybe the whole reason you're on a spiritual quest in the first place is because of the unchallenged belief that this path ends in a permanent state of super-dooper happiness. Maybe you don't really want to go where this really leads. Maybe you're just in it for the fairy tale. I would guess that that is true of over ninety-nine percent of all spiritual seekers."

 

I look around and see everyone staring at me wide-eyed. Is my zipper open? "Think for yourself. That's the real golden rule. Think for yourself. Make it your mantra. Tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids."

[Djshorty]

I enjoyed reading that little bit of the book. It makes complete sense to me that you always have to think for yourself. Great paragraph.

Thanks

 

i'm reading Jed Mckenna's Spiritual Enlightenment the Damnedest Thing, i suggest you all read it. it's amazing. if you want it, PM me.

 

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

[Guest winpro07]

Edited February 13, 2008 by winpro07

[Sunya]

Finding your cup is impossible. Filling it will never happen. You locked it in a cupboard long ago. Bliss is a cup filled. Love, and exctacy when it overflows. You think that all the doors flung wide, an empty heart is all thats left? Each Cup in its turn will overflow. Freedom from the mind leaves an empty space that yearns to be filled. Who in thier right mind scornes a man of Great compassion? of great love?

 

 

there's nothing wrong with compassion or love, but they merely have nothing to do with enlightenment.

 

your analogies are misleading. enlightenment isn't emptying your mind to fill your cup.. it's realizing that there is no cup.

Edited December 17, 2007 by mikaelz

[Guest winpro07]

Edited February 13, 2008 by winpro07

[Guest winpro07]

Edited February 13, 2008 by winpro07

[三江源]

hmmmmmm......

 

 

anyone that can say "fuck bliss'............

 

 

 

hasnt actually experienced it and its effects.

[joeblast]

There mighta been better ways to say that the harmonization of one's bodily and energetic processes isnt the end goal

[sheng zhen]

hmmmmmm......

anyone that can say "fuck bliss'............

hasnt actually experienced it and its effects.

Bliss is great, but it CAN be mistaken for the chemical bliss that happens in the brain. And this chemical bliss can be induced by drugs aswell as meditation and a lot of other methods.

 

I believe that if we mistake the bliss that comes from release of illusions and energy blockages with the chemical bliss, then it is legitimate to say "fuck bliss" in relation to enlightenment.

 

I dont think feeling bliss continuously is any confirmation you have reached any level of enlightenment. I dont think it is a two-way connection between the two. It can be just a chemical condition in the brain. But if you have reached enlightenment you probably naturally feel blissful all the time.

[三江源]

I wonderings. Chemical bliss versus the release of illusion bliss.

 

Is it possible to make distinguishments between the two, for sake of clarity?

[Sunya]

I wonderings. Chemical bliss versus the release of illusion bliss.

 

Is it possible to make distinguishments between the two, for sake of clarity?

 

the point is that being drugged up on the love of god, bliss, whatever has nothing to do with enlightenment.

enlightenment is knowing and living through the ultimate truth

[三江源]

the point is that being drugged up on the love of god, bliss, whatever has nothing to do with enlightenment.

enlightenment is knowing and living through the ultimate truth

 

thanks mikaelz, I got your point first time round.

 

moving on now to a seperate issue of

 

distinction

between

chemical bliss from drugs

 

and

 

the other kind.

 

a question I posed.

[sheng zhen]

I wonderings. Chemical bliss versus the release of illusion bliss.

 

Is it possible to make distinguishments between the two, for sake of clarity?

I dont think it is easy to see the difference within the brain. Its probably the same chamicals involved.

 

But there is a difference in how it happened. I think that is pretty obvious. Thats one of the reasons the feeling of bliss itself dosent really say anything about enlightenment. But it is still an inevitable part of enlightenment.

 

Another thing I think about when reading the "fuck bliss" statement, is that people get attached to the feeling of bliss. That will make them unable to face reality. There are enough examples of hippies "feeling unconditional love and blissful unity with the universe" with no ability to deal with aggression, conflicts, their own subconscious issues, and things like that. Feelings of bliss are too often used as narcotics by spiritual people, to suppress their real issues and run away from reality and the karma one has to face.

 

Adyashanti said something in the clip Sean posted: "enlightenment has nothing to do with the enlightenment experience". If we see that statement as true, then "fuck bliss" makes sense

[AugustLeo]

.

[rex]

Tantra speaks of an all pervasive Universal Bliss where all other forms of bliss are but a pale reflection.

[Sunya]

Mikaelz,

 

I've been looking for the thread(s) where someone equated "bliss" with "enlightenment" and can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks.

 

AugustLeo

 

 

it was in my philosophy of kunlun thread. people equated bliss to enlightenment in that bliss is your 'true nature'

 

 

DMT is released by the brain upon death in a massive dose. there is definetely something more to chemicals, so that isn't the point.

sheng, i completely agree with you and that is what Jed is trying to say. bliss could be an after effect but it shouldn't be something directly sought.

 

that's really one of the main points Jed makes, its that most spiritual paths go after the side-effects of enlightenment instead of enlightenment itself. he calls spirituality an opiate in that you're so blissed out and happy that you don't care if you have the truth or not. 99% of people are on the path because they just want happiness, not truth.

 

 

The simple fact is that it's a bloody mess, and the peace and love crowd don't sign up for that. They want the enlightenment that doesn't include relinquishing one's place among fellow water-treaders. They don't want to stop treading, don't want to slip, alone, into the murky depths, the endless blackness. They want the other enlightenment; the one where they can stay with the group and keep their carefully constructed, highly refined personalities and just be happy. Preferably, really really really happy.

I like happiness as much as the next guy, but it's not happiness that sends one in search of truth. It's rabid, feverish, clawing madness to stop being a lie, regardless of price, come heaven or hell. This isn't about higher consciousness or heaven on earth, this is about blood-caked swords and Buddha's rotting head and vomiting balls of molten lead, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something they don't have.

Edited December 17, 2007 by mikaelz

[AugustLeo]

.

[三江源]

Tantra speaks of an all pervasive Universal Bliss where all other forms of bliss are but a pale reflection.

 

 

this makes sense to me, thanks rex.

 

 

one man's 'bliss' is another man's 'feeling not too bad, thanks.'

[bindo]

i'm reading Jed Mckenna's Spiritual Enlightenment the Damnedest Thing, i suggest you all read it. it's amazing. if you want it, PM me.

 

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

Jed McKenna is a joke. Please don't even get me started on this clown.

 

If you think love and compassion have nothing to do with enlightenment, you are sadly mistaken. Enlightenment comes in many forms and many stages. Why do you want to set rules that it must follow? It's different for everyone.

 

Anandamayi Ma was God intoxicated her entire life. BLISS

Baba Neem Karoli said to "just love God". LOVE

Sri Aurobindo never wanted anything for himself. He wanted to free India from British rule, and then to enlighten the earth consciousness for everyone. COMPASSION

 

If you want to construct walls around yourself so nothing can enter, be uncaring, and irresponsible for your actions (or inactions), then by all means continue to read Jed's crap.

[Yoda]

If you think love and compassion have nothing to do with enlightenment, you are sadly mistaken. Enlightenment comes in many forms and many stages. Why do you want to set rules that it must follow? It's different for everyone.

 

Anandamayi Ma was God intoxicated her entire life. BLISS

Baba Neem Karoli said to "just love God". LOVE

Sri Aurobindo never wanted anything for himself. He wanted to free India from British rule, and then to enlighten the earth consciousness for everyone. COMPASSION

 

 

Well put! Just for the record, Yoda equates bliss with enlightenment! Otherwise, enlightenment would honestly have no appeal to me or to any of the people that I know.

 

I think the prajna articulation is cool and valid, but let's keep it real... the intellectual and the emotional are two wings of one bird and you can't have one without the other.

 

The problem you run into if you diss the bliss too hard is that you end up not having quite as much fun and therefore dampen your bodhisattvic abilities and inclinations... As Mother Teresa said to her order, "if you aren't cheerful I don't want you here... you are of no help whatsoever."

 

Yoda

[AugustLeo]

.

Edited April 10, 2009 by AugustLeo

[Sunya]

Edited December 17, 2007 by mikaelz

[thelerner]

Peoples interpretation of enlightenment runs from rising above the ego to being godlike. We probably all have different, maybe Very different interpretations of enlightenment.

 

Whatever the definition, there's a sticky enlightenment that once achieved you're in all the time. That state is higher then being able to bliss out while in a certain meditation (or drug).

 

I also think all definitions of enlightenment contain overcoming (destroying?) the ego. Sometimes its achieved darkly, through a loss so great it tears the made up story of your being apart, leaving you free and without illusions. I think it can also be achieved lightly through opening the heart and connecting to everything then the made up story is dropped and the concept of you becomes negligible.

 

In both cases, awareness is big, u is small.

 

Don't diss bliss? I was practicing Kunlun a few days ago. You're supposed to do it w/ a smile on, but I didn't feel like it. I couldn't think of anything to make me smile. Only when I thought 'Fuck Bliss', did I finally feel happy and manage a big smile.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

not sure what you mean by the 'prajna articulation'

 

In Tibet, there's a debate between wisdom/insight/what I called "prajna" vs compassion/bliss/bodhicitta which also spills over into the methodless/direct pointing vs method debate where the insight folks don't go for the the step by step energy cultivation needed by the compassion camp. It's my understanding that they all mostly kind of agree to say that they are like two wings of a bird. If one is already well developed energetically, there's more of a focus on methodlessness but beginners/normal folk do better with cultivation. And some teachers prefer to teach one aspect over the other and to articulate their teachings accordingly.

 

Yoda

[Guest winpro07]

Edited February 13, 2008 by winpro07