The Goal

[cold]

Is suffering not a prerequisite to writing well (and or required for quality performance production in other arts forms music painting etc. ?

[Marblehead]

Is suffering not a prerequisite to writing well (and or required for quality performance production in other arts forms music painting etc. ?

 

Excellent question and by proxy a good challenge to what I said above.

 

I will agree that first hand experiences are almost always a prerequisite for honest representation in the arts.  Suffering because of bad choices?  I don't talk about suffering.

[Daeluin]

To learn about Daoism in a traditional manner means being open to having one's teachers, "Dao friends," and the classics repeatedly say, "you're wrong." To the cultivator, the whole point of having teachers, classical texts, and "Dao friends" is to increase the chances of being told where, how, and why one is wrong.

 

Here we arrive at a very sneaky conundrum:

 

The statement, "he's not wrong, he just has a different perspective," very likely reflects the speaker's open mind.

 

But the statement, "I'm not wrong, I just have a different perspective," might very well reflect something that's quite the opposite of an open mind.

 

Words and concepts are needed to know right and wrong. Otherwise we naturally follow the way. Deciding which way is up to each of us. Some may use words and concepts, others may follow other means.

 

When I pour some hot water into a bowl of cold water, they churn and mix naturally. Some molecules flow some way, some flow another way. Is it necessary for someone to put up a checkpoint, establish routes and scriptures and tell each molecule precisely how it needs to proceed?

 

No, that would only stagnate the natural flow.

 

The dao does not interfere. Those of us who return to the dao in this lifetime do so naturally and by destiny, flowing in our right time and right place for us.

 

These human concepts have indeed put up checkpoints, established routes and rules about what is right and wrong, and these things have indeed brought stagnation to the natural flow. But this too is part of the natural flow. Scriptures are passed down to point the way, but let us not forget that the dao that can be spoken of is not the true dao.

 

Confucius left us a famous quote about being a teacher: I do not open up the truth to one who is not eager to get knowledge, nor help out any one who is not anxious to explain himself. When I have presented one corner of a subject to any one, and he cannot from it learn the other three, I do not repeat my lesson.

 

He shows them part of the way and will not take them deeper unless they are able to first proceed deeper on their own. If they do not go deeper, he does not repeat the lesson. There is no telling them "your wrong" again and again - that is for them to discover on their own.

 

Discovering that one is wrong on one's own means taking one's own responsibility for following one's destiny - discovering one's natural harmonious path just like that molecule of water. There is a fine line between inviting one to see deeper according to a particular perspective and telling one how one is wrong. The invitation does not prevent the student from finding their way out the door if they do not feel this perspective is a good fit for them, and should they chose to leave, the invitation does not leave them feeling riddled with restrictions about right and wrong they need to dissolve.

 

In Chronicles of Tao, the Student's Master invites him to discover his destiny, and makes clear it is only he who should discover his destiny. The Master says he will be unable to return to dao until this happens. At one point the Student meditates for months and months and gets to the point where he leaves his body and follows his way to dao, yet is brought back into his body as his neighbor's stereo blasts loudly at just the right time.

 

A Shaman I once worked with too impressed upon us the importance of working out our destiny, telling us that before each of us reincarnated, we whole heartedly knew and understood what it was we were tasked with to accomplish in our new life and were eager to do so. Just like the water molecules of different temperatures, we too are eager to flow toward greater equilibrium.

 

Some will resonate with neidan scriptures, some with other scriptures. Some will only dart across the surface, others will find their way more deeply within. Whichever the case, I believe it important that we do not leave them with scars.

 

Let us not forget that many concepts of the East are now flowing into the west and being assimilated, almost exactly like those hot and cold waters being mixed together. Please, PLEASE do not assume those waters must reach perfect equilibrium according to the timing that you think is best. Why ever would there not be many diverse pockets of different temperatures as they merge and dance and flow towards that desired state?

 

There is no line between fake apples and real apples. They are all a little of both. As soon as a single word is uttered the dao is no longer pure.

 

Please here, of all places, let us place invitations to that clarity that is the equilibrium of truth we seek. Please do not mind when others are still mixing and merging - they have not arrived yet, and perhaps you will not live to see them do so, and that is OK. They are still different shades of hot and cold, and this is reflected in the beliefs and paths they take as right for them.

 

In harmony we coexist and invite those who are ready.

 

The immortal points the way.

 

Even the potency of the true neidan scriptures can cause harm simply by existing, precisely because people so easily trip over them. Let us not help them trip harder by assuming this is their way, but let us help soften the edges by creating a harmony that may ease the transition into equilibrium.

 

 

What would you say if lets say Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan, Wu Chongxu, Liu Huayang and other Patriarchs of the Past would say in their numerous texts that some specific kind of practice you are doing for a long time is wrong?

 

 

[awaken]

I am a traditional Dao practicer. And I can read these traditional Chinese old texts directly. I also read a lot of articles and did a lot of practice.

 

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

 

They are not the same. Please don't mix their names together.

 

Thank you.

[Taoist Texts]

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

 

they are right apples to right oranges)

[[email protected]]

Is suffering not a prerequisite to writing well (and or required for quality performance production in other arts forms music painting etc. ?

This is an excellent question from my point of view!

Let me share my understanding - many European authors, especially in literature, created genius masterpieces just because they had personal problems and these problem situations helped them to create smth unusual.

But all these mastepeaces (f.e. by Dostoevskyi) lack harmony and therefore contain some spiritual illness inside. Chinese tractates by alchemy masters do not have even shadow of disharmony, this is the difference.

So, if you are reading some european writing and see a peace of problem, if it involves you somehow then it is a sign that some part of disharmony is in you.

Rgrds, Ilya

Edited April 16, 2017 by [email protected]

[allinone]

I am a traditional Dao practicer. And I can read these traditional Chinese old texts directly. I also read a lot of articles and did a lot of practice.

 

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

 

They are not the same. Please don't mix their names together.

 

Thank you.

 

pre traumatic state.

 

edit: never mind..carry on.

Edited April 16, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

i have found the best thing to do is to play Satanist when talking with Christian believers.

Edited April 16, 2017 by allinone

[Daeluin]

What would you say if lets say Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan, Wu Chongxu, Liu Huayang and other Patriarchs of the Past would say in their numerous texts that some specific kind of practice you are doing for a long time is wrong?

 

A great country is like the lowland toward which all streams flow. It is the Reservoir of all under heaven, the Feminine of the world.

 

The Feminine always conquers the Masculine by her quietness, by lowering herself through her quietness.

 

Hence, if a great country can lower itself before a small country, it will win over the small country; and if a small country can lower itself before a great country, it will win over the great country. The one wins by stooping; the other, by remaining low.

 

What a great country wants is simply to embrace more people; and what a small country wants is simply to come to serve its patron. Thus, each gets what it wants. But it behooves a great country to lower itself.

 

Dao De Jing 61, Lao Zi, tl John C. H. Wu

 

Is this not simply following the principle of allowing the hot and the cold to mix most efficently, without getting in the way? In mixing with the western world and with information technology, the words of dao merge with a vast realm wherein many potential students exist. Is this not a good thing?

 

 

All streams flow to the sea

because it is lower than they are.

Humility gives it its power.

 

If you want to govern the people,

you must place yourself below them.

If you want to lead the people,

you must learn how to follow them.

 

The Master is above the people,

and no one feels oppressed.

She goes ahead of the people,

and no one feels manipulated.

The whole world is grateful to her.

Because she competes with no one,

no one can compete with her.

 

Dao De Jing 66, Lao Zi, tl Stephen Mitchell

 

Why should Neidan fear losing its primal truths? Pass along the invitations into greater depths, be humble rather than controlling, and the merging of neidan with the world will become more efficient, more rapid, more complete, and it will be done by means of harmony.

 

 

Almost all of my words are presented as coming from the mouths of other people, and of those the better part are further presented as citations from weighty ancient authorities. But all such words are actually spillover-goblet words, giving forth [new meanings] constantly, harmonizing them all through their Heavenly Transitions.

 

The nine-tenths or so attributed to others discuss a topic by borrowing an outside viewpoint. A father does not serve as matchmaker for his own son, for the praises of the father are no equal to those from the mouth of another - and the blame too then goes not to me, but to someone else! [in any case], those who agree will be responsive, while those who do not will object. For people call right whatever agrees with them and call wrong whatever differs from them.

 

The seven-tenths or so that are presented as citations from weighty ancient authorities are meant to defuse garrulous faultfinding, eliciting agreement with the words of these "venerable elders" instead. [but in fact], some of those who come before us in years, if they have not gone through the warp and the woof of things, from the root to the tip, in a way befitting their age, do not have any real priority over us. A man [of advanced years] with nothing to give him priority over others has not fulfilled the course of a human being, and a human being devoid of the course of a human being should really just be called a stale, obsolete oldster.

 

These spillover-goblet words give forth [new meanings] constantly, so that all are harmonized through their Heavenly Transitions. They extend on and on without break and thus can remain in force to the end of one's years. When nothing is said, everything is equal. But words and this original equality are then not equal to each other. Thus it is that I speak only nonspeech. When you speak nonspeech, you can talk all your life without ever having said a word, or never utter a sound without ever failing to say something. There is some place from which each saying is acceptable, and some place from which it is unacceptable. There is some place from which it is so, and some place from which it is not so. Whence so? From being affirmed so. Whence not so? From being denied to be so. Whence acceptable? From someone accepting it. Whence unacceptable? From someone not accepting it. There is necessarily some perspective from which each thing is right and acceptable. Thus, all things are right; all things are acceptable. So what words other than spillover-goblet words, harmonizing through their Heavenly Transitions, could remain in force for very long? All beings are seeds of one another, yielding back and forth their different forms, beginning and ending like a circle, so that no fixed groupings apply. This is called Heaven the Potter's Wheel. It is Heaven the Potters Wheel that we see in their Heavenly Transitions.

 

Zhuangzi tl Brook Ziporyn

 

If the schools of Neidan must exercise forcefulness and cultivate disharmony to protect themselves, does this mean they have abandoned the teachings of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi?

[silent thunder]

Is suffering not a prerequisite to writing well (and or required for quality performance production in other arts forms music painting etc. ?

While I don't think it is a prerequisite to suffer to create great art...

there does seem to be a commonality among the exquisite artists... those that seem to rise above and resonate with a broad spectrum of people... their work transcending cultural boundaries and times.

 

These artists are not afraid to share their pain and their shortcomings.  They don't hide their suffering and they don't pretend to have all their shit together, nor to disguise their frailties.

 

this quality in an artist is very endearing... I think because it reminds us of one of the great truths in life

 

grief decreases when we share it

and love increases.

[opendao]

I am a traditional Dao practicer. And I can read these traditional Chinese old texts directly. I also read a lot of articles and did a lot of practice.

 

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

 

They are not the same. Please don't mix their names together.

 

Thank you.

 

If the schools of Neidan must exercise forcefulness and cultivate disharmony to protect themselves, does this mean they have abandoned the teachings of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi?

 

 

it is so when we speak about those who proved many times their inability to read texts, as in the example above. Imaginary goals, based on textual misunderstanding and lack of attention, make no harmony. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by opendao

[Taoist Texts]

If the schools of Neidan must exercise forcefulness and cultivate disharmony to protect themselves, does this mean they have abandoned the teachings of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi?

 

That is subject to discussion.

 

However, the  commercial outfits who  increase their sales through negative advertisement, never had any teachings to begin with.

That is certain.)

[opendao]

Some people here are so desperately trying to promote themselves by slandering traditional Daoism. 

That's the certain negative advertisement to begin with.

[opendao]

This is the thing - a master with high level of development and a great harmony sense will not write first good texts and then some irrelevant sh..t. smile

If the harmony is developed then everyone who can feel sees that the master is great.

Rgds, Ilya

 

It works the same with anything people do. Any writing can tell a lot about its author and his or her level.

 

And by reading good texts it's possible to learn how to attune to the author's thoughts, because great texts are like a Camertone - they create an example of harmony.

[Marblehead]

@ opendao,

 

I like your recent usage of the word/concept "harmony".  I feel it is important in my life and I also think it is an important tool when considering the images of others.

[Walker]

In Chronicles of Tao, the Student's Master invites him to discover his destiny, and makes clear it is only he who should discover his destiny. The Master says he will be unable to return to dao until this happens.

 

It is rather pertinent that the same exact character you point to in the same exact novel blows up somebody's heart with his bare hands because the guy was acting too out of line. Talk about a stark counterpoint to your argument.

 

The perspective you suggest is not practical for somebody who really wants to learn. Daoists I have met have no trouble speaking very directly to those they're willing to teach.

 

Thus,

 

On the one hand, if a student comes to a Daoist teacher and declares, "I have discovered that holding my breath as long as I can and thinking about the space inside of my navel will surely make me an immortal," the teacher may simply nod and say, "ok."

 

But on the other hand, if the student describes his or her "discovery" and then asks the teacher for his or her opinion, there's no sensible reason to think that a Daoist teacher wouldn't simply say, "well, I'm afraid you're incorrect."

 

Simple, straightforward, down to earth, pragmatic.

 

Your "everything will sort itself out naturally in the end" stance might be right from a certain perspective, but it strikes me as impractical for those of us with limited life spans--is it, practically speaking, serviceable as anything other than chicken soup for the everybody-gets-a-gold-star, conflict averse soul?

 

You quote Laozi and Zhuangzi to try and make your case, but really, both of their texts are laden with admonition. The texts exist, in fact, to help people see how they are mistaken. You will find admonition all throughout the writings of greats like Zhang Boduan, Wang Chongyang, Li Daochun... actually, the list is endless. Notably, one of your personal faves, Liu Yiming, practically SCREAMS at his readers to stop repeating their mistakes. Why? Probably because to a Daoist who believes in reincarnation (as the latter four names probably did), the "everybody will float right on into the Dao like a water molecule" result might take kalpas to achieve.

 

Finally, if you really believe what you write, why even interfere in this discussion?

[Daeluin]

Hmmm, if the Student in the novel has not learned his lessons, and exercises violence rather than harmony, how does that counter the perspective that he has yet much to learn about harmony, and will not be able to force his way into dao?

 

Why do I interject myself into these discussions? Because I happen to discover myself here and I simply respond from my heart. I believe that we may encounter many types of energies, and may respond to them with truth as you wish, without needing to cut like a sword. That said, my participation has been less frequent than it once was.

 

Yes, a master may choose to respond to their students in many ways, including ones that cut. We are dealing with a one-on-one, or one-on-few relationship here. There many be many avenues for violence to lead to harmony in this environment.

 

In this public forum where we are here, the conflict we nurture with the individuals whom might not share are perspectives and openly invite conflict with us is shared among the many beings who witness the exchange. The conflict becomes widespread. Again and again harsh words are used to deal with people who do not understand, and again and again this is repeated. Do you think to send the non-believers away, or to change their minds with your sharpness? I do not see this happening. Yet again and again conflict is created, which again and again is witnessed, and has now regularly called these witnesses to ask why are you repeatedly nurturing conflict in this public place?

 

Laozi and Zhuangzi share many types of things, but I do not see them admonishing negativity and creating divisions of good and bad. They say here is how people behave, and here is how sages behave. There, is the nature of human dynamics when people are fueled by ambition and greed and come to fight with one another, and here, is the potential for people to become real humans.

 

Perhaps you are right, and I need to let things go and take no part in these discussions, as the teachings I have shared are not listened to - why should I continue to press them?

 

And yet too, my destiny has led me to take the role in upgrading this site, something that needs to happen before the year is done, or I fear the decaying of the code's integrity will lead to the irreplaceable loss of the data we have stored here. Now I ponder, if I give these forums renewed integrity, will they continue to be used to spread conflict by those who name themselves an authority of the dao? Perhaps instead I should simply leave them be, where they will go down a few times a week for multiple hours until they are no more.

 

The previous owner of the five arts forums, which contained vast and extensive posts on the celestial mechanism, took the dangers of sharing the celestial mechanism with the wrong people very seriously. They would require 100's of posts to even read certain posts, to ensure that the information was no available to just anyone. Three years ago the owner closed them down for good, and much was lost. There have been efforts to create a new home for them, but it is not the same.

 

Here too, I believe we dance about the secrets of the celestial mechanism, and while I feel much of it has the potential to be very healing for others, over time we seem to have more and more influence from those who believe there is only one way, and that all other ways are incorrect and should be cut with the sword. They do not seem to the three treasures of Lao Zi: frugality, compassion, and not daring to be ahead of anything else under heaven. I am sincerely uncertain whether or not it is right for my path to contribute further to the preservation of this dynamic.

 

Yes, as you say, perhaps I should just leave things be.

[cheya]

Just want to comment to you, Daeluin, that, while I "thanked" your post, IN NO WAY  do I agree that you should "just leave things be"!    

 

I appreciate the depth of your thoughts, your analysis of what can go awry in these online forums, and all the work you do to keep DB up and running. Thank you!

Edited April 17, 2017 by cheya

[Kar3n]

Just want to comment to you, Daeluin, that, while I "thanked" your post, IN NO WAY  do I agree that you should "just leave things be"!    

 

I appreciate the depth of your thoughts, your analysis of what can go awry in these online forums, and all the work you do to keep DB up and running. Thank you!

+1

 

I second that, cheya!!!

[cold]

"They say this is how people behave and here is how sages behave"

 

I hope the sages have enough wisdom to accept when people act as people... my experience here has shown this to be true, most of the time. That being said sages are people too!

 

I also would concur with cheya and Kar3n that you efforts are needed and appreciated, so please keep on with the invaluable work, on behalf of many.

[Daeluin]

Nor do I wish to betray my role here and let the site continue to decay. But I cannot deny there is a connection between when I began posting here and struggles in my cultivation. I came for assistance in investigating principle, and much of the stagnation I feel is due to overuse of my mind and trouble letting go. Yet too I can be very sensitive, and have a proclivity to holding things that are not mine and allowing things to weigh me down.

 

Now I am seeking to refine away this stiffness once and for all time, and I see it mirrored in the stagnation present here and in other realms I participate in.

 

Perhaps some would invite an end to a public forum where people may do what may be perceived as slandering the dao, and yet would not another arise to take its place? Before that, would not another come to take my place in this role?

 

In following the example of nature, we can see that refinement and delicate harmonies in nature come over long periods of time during which there may be conflict. But too we see this conflict lessen more and more, until the conflict itself takes on the role of preserving harmony by weeding out the sick and unhealthy through the role of predators. Perhaps some consider their actions as a predator here, and yet they are unable to fulfill this role either.

 

And so I hope we too may come to greater refinement in our harmonization with each other, presenting the truth we believe in, though each of those truths may be somewhat unique, without needing to create conflict with each other. Nurturing what we have here and now is a quicker way to harmony than killing it off and starting over.

 

Lao Zi says to know the white, yet keep to the black. This has many layers of meaning. Among them, white is associated with the phase of metal, which is very much related to the poignant essence which may be refined into the perfect treasure of heaven, but can also become weighed down fixed and stagnant. Knowledge is very much like this - it contains much poignancy, and yet too can be somewhat inflexible. Meanwhile the black can be associated with the phase of water, which is a deep and subtle phase, existing beneath the surface of things, laden with subtleties. This is very much the home of the mystery which cannot be grasped but from a desireless state.

 

When we know the white, yet keep to the black, in dealings with others, one meaning is for us to know the truth, yet walk in subtlety. In leading others to the dao, especially when those others are not destined indoor students of our particular school, we lead others to emptiness, dissolving the conflict and edges of their desires. The truth is present there, raw and poignant, and yet it does not force itself upon another, remaining hidden just beneath the surface where any who are ready to find it may look. In this way it does not create conflict, for just like the dao, it does not compete.

 

Whatever the case, I will simply follow the path that unfolds from my sincere intent for healing.

[awaken]

Some people here are so desperately trying to promote themselves by slandering traditional Daoism.

That's the certain negative advertisement to begin with.

I am thankful for your effort to advertise Chinese daoism culture.

 

But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese.

 

You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao.

[silent thunder]

I can't say I agree that the chinese have the one inroad to comprehension and experience of dao.

 

Dao is eeeeeeverywhere... even in my toilet. 

 

edit to add:  ironically though, I think our toilet was made in China... go figure

Edited April 18, 2017 by silent thunder

[opendao]

I am thankful for your effort to advertise Chinese daoism culture.

 

But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese.

 

You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao.

 

If you really want to teach us and reduce misunderstandings, maybe you will finally stop attacking others, return to the topic and tell us the Goals of your Dan Dao practice? Like a plan. What to do first, what to do next.

[[email protected]]

I am thankful for your effort to advertise Chinese daoism culture.

 

But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese.

 

You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao.

Tao does not differ from one language speaker to another. It is open for everyone independently of his native language and nationality. This means that even Chinese can make mistakes in Taoism if they misunderstand smth, as well as not native Chinese language speakers can have a deep understanding of Taoist approach.

Rgrds, Ilya