The Goal

[opendao]

以小人之心，度君子之腹

 

【拼音】：yǐ xiǎo rén zhī xīn，duó jūn zǐ zhī fù

 

In a small man's heart to guess the belly of a gung Zi.

 

夏蟲不可語冰

 

【拼音】：xià chóng bù kě yǐ yǔ bīng

 

We can't tell the summer worm what is ice.

 

It means we can't let the worm only live in summer know what is ice.

 

so what do you teach your students to know beyond their current understanding? Any chance for them to stop being worms?

[awaken]

so what do you teach your students to know beyond their current understanding? Any chance for them to stop being worms?

you should worry if there are too many worms in your schools. We don't need you to worry about us.

[opendao]

you should worry if there are too many worms in your schools. We don't need you to worry about us.

 

So what to do except worrying? Lesson 1: "worry". Ok, very traditional... What's next?

 

Btw, thanks to finally accept that you created a school. A few months ago you rejected any idea of a school at all... "Time heals"...

 

But please continue. I'm all listening to "a native speaker of Chinese" with 27 years of experience...

[opendao]

There is always goal in Daoist practicing.

 

So what is the first one and what to do to reach it?

[awaken]

Your goal is attacking people here?

 

Why are you here?

 

Tell everyone you are right?

 

Does anyone here agree you are right?

Edited April 20, 2017 by awaken

[Marblehead]

I told "having no goals" is a goal, but you read it as "no goal = goal". Too much abstract thinking.

 

Well, I have goals when I encounter conditions in my life that need be resolved.  When all is in harmony what goal more could I have?

[Marblehead]

you should worry if there are too many worms in your schools. We don't need you to worry about us.

 

That gave me a belly laugh!

[Marblehead]

This has been and still is a very constructive discussion.  Let's try to not get too personal and emotional, Okay?

[opendao]

Your goal is attacking people here?

 

Why are you here?

 

Tell everyone you are right?

 

Does anyone here agree you are right?

 

 

You told: "But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese. You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao."

 

Assuming I'm full of mistakes. So I'm listening with all my attention. 

 

But so far just funny attempts to avoid questions. If you are so knowledgeable, if your school is so different from other traditional schools as you told us, then where is the practical wisdom we can admire?

 

What is a curriculum in your school to begin with?

[Walker]

​There is a goal? Does this mean I need to score? There is something to understand? This is very confusing.

 

When did Tao become knowledge, acting, agendas, goals, high or low ,have or have not? No wonder sages have nothing to teach.

 

​This all sounds like something that happens when the Tao is lost.

 

I am right and you are wrong who would like to be the judge? If you agree with me that would be awesome. If you disagree with me how can you be a fair judge.

 

My me is so full of me i can not even see everything that is not me which makes me and everything.

 

I give up, I am going to make some soup with these opposites and drink it. one dash of wrong one dash of right, Oh...the soup is me. I mean an apple

The inescapable irony in posts like these, as well as many of Daeluin's, is that they are ultimately poetic and artful ways of illustrating which stance is correct, and which is incorrect.

 

A value judgement has been made and stated... one way of doing things is painted as better, another as worse. Excellent! how could we have a teaching that never points at some things and says 是, points at others and says 非?

 

The sage is already achieved. Indeed, nothing to do, say, teach. That is Dao.

 

The student is not achieved. Still, much to do, hear, and learn. That requires the "ism," 道教, the Daoist teachings.

 

The tendency of expression in Daoist teachings is loaded with explanations of goals, warnings, and delineations of what is and what is not.

 

There is no contradiction in using contradiction to point the student to the realm beyond contradiction.

 

This is why even very nice guys like Liu Yiming felt it necessary to again and again say very mean things like, "如此惛愚迷誤後學，罪莫大焉!" They cut, to cut the crap.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Walker

[Jadespear]

....Can anyone recall a beginning - 

" The tao that can be named, is not the true tao." 

 

... perhaps there is something eternal about this statement.... something apart from all intellectual activity... something intrinsically true. 

 

In my opinion, the tao is a lot like science.  It doesn't matter what you believe, think, say or do.  It is what it is.  It cannot be changed... named, placed, or shown...  yet it is everywhere, waiting, moving, and ending; revolving and evolving. 

 

peace be with you. 

[Starjumper]

Well it seems pretty damn clear to me, Tao is the way the universe works, ie: the way nature works, which includes everything, doesn't it?  It includes human nature, which is what makes it hilarious; I mean, how can a Bozo know itself?  Most Bozos can't.

 

Is there a purpose in life?  Is there a purpose or goal in human nature? Yes, there are usually several, starting with survival ... unless you are one of the Buddhists just waiting to die ... just waiting for the funeral pyre, so they can escape from the suffering of life (they like to focus on suffering).  Some Taoists think similarly to this - no goal; nothing to do, just float downstream to sickness and death while mental jerking off, which is also a goal.  In ancient times people used to float downstream to sickness and death with out so much mental jerking off.

 

What is a person's purpose in life?  It is whatever someone wants their goal to be, whatever they want.  Some want to live long and prosper, some want to live long with good health,  Some want to see more of the mystery, but they can't, because that's a desire, haha.

 

Some say Lao Tzu defined Taoism, yet he did NOT define Tao.  It is quite clear that Lao Tzu was an adept or master in Nei Kung and Nei Dan and he wanted people to cultivate to grow spiritually to become like the ancient sages and wizards of the past.  However, since Lao Tzu wasn't a pedantic idiot he never said:  "I want YOU to have this goal", instead he says:  "This is what great people do (in case you are motivated to join them)" and he goes on to say that only 1% are interested in that.

 

So it's clear.  Taoism is exclusionary to Bozos!  They don't want you, if you want to join a coffee klatch take your silly ass problem down the hall.   Taoism = No Bozos!

 

So what was the goal of this post? A little morning smart assery.

[Daeluin]

The inescapable irony in posts like these, as well as many of Daeluin's, is that they are ultimately poetic and artful ways of illustrating which stance is correct, and which is incorrect.

 

A value judgement has been made and stated... one way of doing things is painted as better, another as worse. Excellent! how could we have a teaching that never points at some things and says 是, points at others and says 非?

 

The sage is already achieved. Indeed, nothing to do, say, teach. That is Dao.

 

The student is not achieved. Still, much to do, hear, and learn. That requires the "ism," 道教, the Daoist teachings.

 

The tendency of expression in Daoist teachings is loaded with explanations of goals, warnings, and delineations of what is and what is not.

 

There is no contradiction in using contradiction to point the student to the realm beyond contradiction.

 

This is why even very nice guys like Liu Yiming felt it necessary to again and again say very mean things like, "如此惛愚迷誤後學，罪莫大焉!" They cut, to cut the crap.

 

If you've read my posts, then you know I take the idea of investigating principle seriously, and have referenced this quote of Liu Yiming's (from Fabrizio Pregadio's Cultivating the Dao) on multiple occassions:

 

Essentially, in the great Way of the sages and the worthies there are a beginning and an end, the root and the branches. Only by knowing the beginning and comprehending the end, by investigating the root and inquiring into the branches can you tread that Way from one edge to the other, and can there be great awakening and great realization, benefit, and profit. If even one thing is not understood, it becomes a source of delusion: something not true in one's knowledge is an obstruction on one's way. Disciples should inquire into this principle, and only then can they practice this principle. Neither extension of knowledge nor diligent practice should be missing.

 

What is this principle? It is the Way of creation and transformation of Heaven and Earth. The Way of creation and transformation has a foundation (ti) and an operation (yong), a beginning and an end. In this Way, Yin and Yang alternate with one another, and exhaustion and growth succeed one another: their transformations have no limits. However, the ultimate point of this Way consists only in the One Breath; and the One Breath does not lie outside of Empty Non-Being.

 

This core is not form and is not emptiness, it is not Being and is not Non-Being. It cannot be sought by using your mind, but it also cannot be sought by not using your mind. It can hardly be portrayed or pictured; it can hardly be thought or discussed. Following its course results in generating humans and things, inverting its course results in giving birth to Immortals and Buddhas. Here lodge Nature (xing) and Existence (ming), here emerge life and death. Those who are awakened to it ascend to the rank of a saint, those who have no knowledge of it sink for ten thousand kalpas in the ocean of samsara.

 

"Inquiring into the principles" means inquiring into this principle. Only by thoroughly inquiring into this principle can one be able to practice this principle. However, this principle involves applying the fire phases, following a procedure, changing according to the circumstances, hurrying or slowing, hastening or delaying, receiving and casting away, concealing or displaying, squareness and roundness, wholeness and incompleteness, "stopping where it is sufficient," and a large number of other functions. First you should comprehend the Way, and then you should know the method. The dual operation of Way and method, and the joint cultivation of Nature and Existence, are the Way of the Supreme One Vehicle.

 

 

The Way of the One Vehicle is the Way of treading actual ground. In the Way of treading actual ground, one must follow the stages of the gradual progress: it cannot be sought without following a sequence. What are the stages of the gradual progress? They are:

 

[He lists 18 stages of Neidan starting with Accumulating virtue in one's conduct and ending with Smashing Emptiness.]

 

All of the above is essential to cultivate the Tao, and all the possibilities of saintly operation reside therein. If you clearly discern and thoroughly comprehend all of the above points, and if you diligently and untiringly practice them from the beginning to end, you will be able to fulfill your Nature and your Existence.

 

 

 

However, the students of this world only discern the false and do not discern the true: they are unwilling to exert their minds in order to inquire into this principle, and they look lightly upon Nature and Existence. Without even entering the gate, they want to ascend to the main hall; without bringing the human pursuits to an end, they fantasticate about the Way of the Immortals; and without making effort in person, they want to take someone else's true Treasure. If anything goes even slightly different from what they wish, they at once display their irritation: they stop halfway, turn around, and give up without a reason. By acting like this, how can they approach the gateway that leads to sainthood and worthiness?

 

 

Now, the learning of the saints and the sages consists in the learning of "inquiring into the principles and achieving one's Nature ain order to accomplish one's Existence." Its principles are refined and subtle, and its meanings are deep and obscure. Tortoise and milfoil cannot fathom it, spirits and deities cannot know about it. It is not something to which you can awaken by means of "one word or half a sentence." If you do not inquire into these principles and practice several dozens of years, you can only make conjectures about a couple of things. Unless you accumulate virtue in your conduct, unless you are bold in your progress, and unless you are single-minded and determined, you cannot come into contact with a true master.

 

The great persons take Nature and Existence as the great undertaking. Unremitting day and night, they "reach the depths and grasp the seeds of all things," and "probe the Spirit to understand the transformations." Finally, as the saying goes, "the bitter ends and the sweet comes," and suddenly good fortune arrives. All the doubts of the past unexpectedly melt like ice and scatter into pieces like a broken tile. Now you know that all the things you had been thinking were not wrong.

 

 

 

How sad it is that the students of this world do not reflect on the pursuit of Nature and Existence, and do not look into the Way of Nature and Existence! They get mired in the study of the Tao and in the cultivation of the Tao; they vainly attempt to ascend to Heaven in a single step, and to achieve sainthood in one instant. It is no wonder that they are deceived by the ignorant masters of the present day, and that they end up spending their lives in the lair of demons. When one looks at every craft and every art of our world, each of them requires long and careful study; in no other way can there be achievement. How could the great undertaking of Life and Death, which is something rare in our world, be easy to know?

 

[He speaks on the many masters and many years spent in seeking a true master by one of his masters, and concludes with:]

 

I advise my companions on the Way: Establish an enduring commitment and maintain a steady mind; remove errant thoughts and give prominence to the undertaking of Nature and Existence; inquire into the principles of creation and transformation with an unwavering mind. Advance by removing one layer after the other: when you remove one layer, continue to the next one until you finally reach the inner core of the Tao. Then you will be able to see that all the dust of this world is a precious jewel. Rambling at will, you will go anywhere you like, and everywhere will be the Tao. Entirely awakened and entirely realized, you will move without obstructions.

 

Why should you fear that you will not fulfill your Nature and you Existence? Why should you fear that you will not achieve the Great Tao?

 

However, let us not forget our audience, and the time we are speaking of here. Liu Yiming's audience is those who are seeking to follow the steps of neidan to find the dao. Too, he speaks from a time when there were not clear-cut ways and scientific thinking.

 

Yes, I investigate principle. Too I found that this took me further from the path, as over use of the mind - which is common in our era - has negative side effects which are not often covered as admonitions. Let us remember that:

 

Always without desire we must be found,

If its deep mystery we would sound;

But if desire always within us be,

Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

 

Too let us not mistake a strongly centered intention with desire. I have found that the more I think I know and understand the tapestry, the more difficult it becomes for me to be open and empty, something many prospective students - especially those reading these forums - are likely to struggle with.

 

On these forums we have a list of Liu Yiming's admonitions, which include the necessity of being able to tolerate and accept anything, avoiding doing things to others for personal gain, getting lost in books, and so on.

 

He also admonishes those who confuse and mislead others - which perhaps you think this is what I do. I simply see that many of the words used here are presented in a way that creates karmic conflicts, disrupts harmony, leads away from emptiness (the true emptiness which is not empty), and leads away from unity. To me these things touch upon the core of the art, and indeed are listed as Liu Yiming's first step, developing virtue in one's conduct.

 

Alone with ones student(s) there is a different type of etiquette than when one is on stage in front of an audience in a grand ballroom. In this latter case, in front of so many people the etiquette requires more refinement, for it is much easier to stimulate feelings of awkwardness in one's large audience. This feeling of awkwardness is a sowing of karma. It causes others to become closed to not only you the speaker, but to the dao.

 

When people are closed off, and we attempt to correct them, because they are closed they often end up becoming more defensive, more closed off, and polarized against us. Thus if we wish to plant seeds of change in someone, it is best to encourage them to be open, by harmonizing with their perspective, adapting to match their stance. It is when the reasons for holding themselves closed begin to melt away that people become open. When people are open there is flow, harmony, and two things are able to come into resonance with each other and exchange ideas and information.

 

I hear that my words do contain advocation of right and wrong. We are often told it is the journey that matters, not the destination. What I hope would be seen is more about how I present my argument, than what my argument is. I try to use different tacts in order to feel out my audience and come to better harmonize with them. I admit I am not very adept at this, and some of my earlier posts in this thread were more reactionary. And even then I did my best to present quotes to an audience that clearly values quotes. I have been adapting my perspective to include quotes from neidan masters rather than LaoZi and Zhuangzi which I started with. I have posed my stance from the framework of questions. All of it is intended to create more of an open environment from which we may work in more productively together. Here perhaps the what merges with the how.

 

Liu Yiming himself could be said to have received the transmission due to his discovery that being open is what invites the energy - but this is my perspective. Please feel free to have another!

 

Qi asked: where do you think you are going?

Liu Yiming replied: to the riverbank.

Qi asked: to the riverbank to do what?

Liu Yiming replied: to the riverbank to fish.

Qi countered: the fish is in the water deep down, what to do?

Liu Yiming replied: first entice it with the bait, then angle it with the hook, how could it not be caught?

 

From this, Qi saw that Liu Yiming understood it, and on the same night transmitted him all about methods of cinnabar and phases of fire in detail; encouraging him, said: this work requires 20 years of utmost gongfu (effort), and then you will see the effect. Now, you strive with all your force, don’t be lazy, as to me, I will go into hiding.

[Starjumper]

So it's clear.  Taoism = No Bozos!

 

This is what I'm trying to say:

 

Taoism = 

[Starjumper]

However, there were some rather famous Taoists who were great at acting like Bozos, but that's only because they knew almost everyone else was a Bozo ...

 

in Bozo Land.

 

So have fun mocking them and joining them?

 

If think that's enough of Bozos for this morning.

[thelerner]

However, there were some rather famous Taoists who were great at acting like Bozos, but that's only because they knew almost everyone else was a Bozo ...

 

in Bozo Land.

I grew up watching Bozo.  I admired the childishness, humor and gentle wisdom of the character.  When I bought my first house Bozo, literally, lived on my block on the corner house.  Thus I knew Bozo, I was a friend of Bozo, you people should only hope to be Bozo.

[[email protected]]

I saw some people think there is no goal in dao.

I don't think so.

We personally can have goals on our way to Tao. F.e. my goal is to develop myself as deep as my fate allows. But following to Lao Zhu, Tao is not merciful, Heaven and Earth don't treat a man in a kind manner, and Tao is perfect, so it does not have any goal itself and for any one personally. It's our own choice. I thought it was clear to everyone.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Marblehead]

However, there were some rather famous Taoists who were great at acting like Bozos, but that's only because they knew almost everyone else was a Bozo ...

 

in Bozo Land.

 

So have fun mocking them and joining them?

 

If think that's enough of Bozos for this morning.

 

In the land of points everyone must have a point else they are pointless.

[thelerner]

never mind.

 

(actually a call for politeness on this thread but worried such a simply plea would lead to trolls defending there trolling.  i don't know about the tao, but the bickering and insults going on do the writers no credit )

[Marblehead]

So Arkady's goal is:  "My goal of being here is the spreading of Traditional Daoism (Ancient Dao)."

 

Not much to talk about here so the thread went off topic.

[silent thunder]

In the land of points everyone must have a point else they are pointless.

 

 

Neo:  So we need machines and they need us, is that your point Councilor?

 

Councilor Hamann:  no... no point... old men like me don't bother with points....  there's no point.

 

Neo:  Is that why there are no young men on the Council?

 

Councilor Hamann:  Good point.

 

 

 

 

this may be a slight veering off topic in which case... good

 

that's the point.

 

 

interconnectedness...

perspective dependent values...

systemic conditions beyond our control...

 

maybe not so off topic actually.

[Marblehead]

that's the point.

 

 

Or maybe it was the goal?

[silent thunder]

GOAL!

 

jesus saves....

he passes to Gretzky

 

Gretzky shoots...

HE SCORES!

[opendao]

Dao as a teaching gives everyone a possibility to make own choices. It's even better if the choice is made with full understanding of its consequences. Such understanding is the core of the Daoist teaching in its written form. Anybody can read it and apply to own life and practice.

 

Classic texts inform quite good about so-called "side roads" and the Great Dao, which is the inner alchemy.

So we can understand, which goals have no sense to pursuit if your goal is to attain Dao.

 

Alas, such down-to-earth approach is not popular, and usually we can see something like this:

 

I am thankful for your effort to advertise Chinese daoism culture.

But if you can listen to a native speaker of Chinese.

You will learn more and misunderstand less of dao.

 

You can learn from me.

I will tell you what is fake Dan dao and what is true Dan dao.

 

I am a traditional Dao practicer. And I can read these traditional Chinese old texts directly. I also read a lot of articles and did a lot of practice.

I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples. But I don't agree that Wu Chongxu, Liu Hauyan are right apples.

They are not the same. Please don't mix their names together.

 

Sounds very pathetic, but what is really behind all such loud claims? 

 

All "high level methods" are here:

 

"I focus on Xiuan guan.

Focusing on

Xiuan guan will relax middle dan tian."

 

Exactly what Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji named "minor schools and inconsistent methods": 

 

 

Lü Dongbin asked his teacher Zhongli Quan: "Why is Great Dao difficult to understand and realize?"

Zhongli Quan answered: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity; they are passed from one to another and until death the true awareness does not come; they subsequently become customary and discredit the Great Dao.

These are such methods as:
1. Fasting.
2. Starvation.
3. Gathering of qi.
4. Saliva swallowing.
5. Sexual abstinence.
6. Forgoing tastes.
7. Chan meditation.
8. Silence.
9. Awareness.
10. The Art of the inner chambers.
11. Inhaling much, exhaling little.
12. Maintaining purity.
13. Quieting (thoughts stopping).
14. Avoiding fatigue.
15. Opening of the heads crown.
16. Puckering genitals into ones body.
17. Symptoms disappearance.
18. Canons reading and recitation.
19. Outer alchemy.
20. Breathe restraining.
21. Dao Yin practices.
22. Tu Na gymnastics.
23. Gathering and replenishing.
24. Charity and donations.
25. Sacrifices.
26. Giving help.
27. Retreating into mountains.
28. Innate wisdom (analytical mind).
29. Immobility.
30. Formal maintaining of the teaching lineage.

Its not possible to fully recite all the minor schools and inconsistent methods. 

 

 

Did she read that? Obviously. Understood? So far she did not. But she allows herself to proudly say: "I agree Lui Dongbin, Zhongli Quan, Zhang Boduan is the right apples"...

 

Funny of course, for those who understand that it's just another soap bubble, dangerous self invented qigong based on using attention, mind, breathing, movements. Without any program, just "sit and relax"...

 

But let's people have a choice: towards Dao or enjoying struggling on side roads the entire life, chasing imaginary goals.

[Stosh]

All goals are products of imagination anyway. And even if various disciplines dont get folks to certain goals, discipline has advantages.. The texts are cryptic and suggest different things to different readers. While I can say what I read ,I can not as a matter of fact say what they meant to the author, or if the author was actually correct!. I am not saying that anyone is better off wading in uncertainty though. Its fine if folks choose practices which might not grant immortality, just so long as they improve the life of the person who has taken them on, and an eye is kept on the attainment of virtue.