CH. 67 - Three Treasures

[Mig]

As I read chapter 67 according to several translations the 3 treasures are: compassion, frugality and not daring to take the lead in the empire (Lau), others translate humility. My question is why the third 不敢為天下先 is not a noun like the others? Is there a reasoning behind this?

     

[Marblehead]

 

As I read chapter 67 according to several translations the 3 treasures are: compassion, frugality and not daring to take the lead in the empire (Lau), others translate humility. My question is why the third 不敢為天下先 is not a noun like the others? Is there a reasoning behind this?

     

 

Ha!  Yes, the Three Treasures of Chapter 67.  These are not the ones being spoken to in this thread but your question is a good one so I will speak to it.

 

A few years back I translated the third to "Humility" for the reason you mentioned.  I was please later to find that I am not the only one who has done this. 

 

Compassion

Frugality

Humility

 

Easier to understand and remember.

[dust]

Was this split from another thread?

 

Anyway... MH you aren't wrong, it's perhaps easier to understand and remember, but...the original text isn't that easy, so shouldn't we translate it awkwardly too?

 

The author chose to use "不敢為天下先" -- literally "not daring/brave to wei (be/act) first under heaven" -- rather than a single character, like 慈 and 俭, we get a 6-character phrase.

 

There were surely a couple of characters that could have been used if the author meant "humility", e.g. 谦 which is used for hexagram 15 humbling/modesty

[cheya]

Thank you Dust! That was helpful!

 

Curious about your understanding of the first two terms as well...   

 

Compassion?

 

Frugality?

 

Just how we might normally understand those words?

 

Thank you!

[dust]

Thanks. I do miss discussing this stuff. Not sure where my fire went.

 

From an almost-purely linguistic standpoint..(and remember I'm rusty as well as dusty)

 

ci 慈

 

Translations include love, show kindness to, give presents to one's parents

 

其次为慈母。——《礼记·内则》

慈者, 父母之高行也。——《管子·形势解》

 

It seems to have been used a lot in ancient texts in conjunction with parents & filial piety, but especially the mother.

 

In Buddhist texts, Great Compassion (Mahakaruna) is translated as dabeixin 大悲心 (lit. great sad heart), not dacixin 大慈心, but ci does seem to be associated with Bodhisattvas, i.e. 'giving happiness' to others.

 

To me, this makes sense: with empathy at the core, compassion and mercy hold an element of sorrow (as the great many people are inevitably sad/suffering, especially according to Buddhists...), so 悲 bei works (at least in Buddhism). In our Daoist text, I don't see that 慈 ci really fits with all that. Compassion might not be the best word. Especially when we consider its association with the parents/filial piety.

 

From an etymological view, the character began as a pictogram of silk and a heart, apparently illustrating:

 

心肠软如丝，疼惜生命，不杀生，不作恶   heart soft like silk, tender love of life, no killing, no evildoing

 

Maybe "love" or "kindness" would be better. Then again, maybe all of these words could fit (love, compassion, kindness).

Edited March 3, 2017 by dust

[cheya]

Dust, thank you again!

For some reason, "compassion" has never satisfied me as a translation, and I really appreciate your expansion on this.

 

From what you have offered, I prefer "tender love of (all) life", and also wonder, not going buddhist here as in the filial bit, but could it be love for the Great Mother, as the source of all life? 

 

 

And now maybe you'll have a go at "frugality"?

Edited March 3, 2017 by cheya

[dust]

jiǎn 儉

 

Translations include temperate, be cautious about, keep watch over, thrifty, frugal, economical, poor, bad harvest

 

I looked at ci all by itself in that last post but should also have looked at it in the context of the chapter, particularly with reference to its partner (yong 勇 brave, fierce -- a pairing there could be 'tender' and 'fierce' but I'm not sure others will like that).

 

The partner of jian in this chapter is guang 廣 which can translate as wide, extensive. I've always thought the pairing of 'frugal' and 'wide' is odd. There's also no particular reason to assume that Laozi is referring to money or one's ability to save it. It's fine to be thrifty but I've always thought it odd that this would be one of three treasures.

 

The makeup of the character 儉 is person 人 and all 僉, which is taken now to mean "person (conserving) all", but I think the original pictogram could just as easily be illustrating a person standing separate from the crowd, watching over, "a man apart" as it were. This would fit with the older translation "keep watch over", perhaps.

 

I might call jian 'cautious', a simple combination of the notions of economic caution and caution for/around other people. guang could then be something like 'adventurous', I suppose, though that's much more specific than the Chinese.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dust

[flowing hands]

The three treasures are these;

 

Mercy

economy

being at one with the dao/knowledge of Dao

[Marblehead]

 

Anyway... MH you aren't wrong, it's perhaps easier to understand and remember, but...the original text isn't that easy, so shouldn't we translate it awkwardly too?

 

 

No arguments.  But consider that I say often that I like to understand Taoism as it applies to my "today" life.  "Humility" is easier to say than all that other stuff.

[Brian]

May I suggest "gentle" as the contrast to "fierce?"

[Marblehead]

May I suggest "gentle" as the contrast to "fierce?"

 

I think you just did.

[Brian]

I think you just did.

Then the answer is "yes."

[dust]

Yeah, I quite like gentle/gentleness. Skimming Legge's translation (usually makes an appearance as it's alongside the Chinese on the English version of ctext.org) I noticed that he used 'gentleness' and 'bold'.

 

Though I'm not as convinced by his 'economy' and 'liberal' for the 2nd treasure.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dust

[dawei]

Here is Derek Lin's commentary on that section:

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/DerekLin.html#Kap67

 

 

By having compassion, one gains courage. True courage doesn't come from macho posturing or false bravado. Rather, it comes from love and commitment to something greater than oneself.

 

By having the mindset of conservation, one understands how to allocate and direct one's efforts to best effect, and therefore reach the most people and have the widest impact.

 

By having humility, one can connect with the Tao of leadership. Leaders who lead best do not focus on themselves. They have no wish to be the center of attention and prefer to let others shine. They direct their attention to what needs to be done, and do not need to take credit or remind others of their accomplishments.

 

All three treasures are important and must work together. Courage without compassion would be nothing more than brutality. To reach widely without conserving one's resources will quickly lead to exhaustion. Forgetting the lesson of humility, becoming arrogant, and letting the ego run wild are the beginning stage of self-delusion. These negative consequences can only lead to failure and doom.

 

Those who hold on to the three treasures can achieve extraordinary feats. Warriors who fight with compassion in their hearts achieve victory, because love gives them the strength they need. If they fight to defend loved ones or a cherished cause, they achieve security and protection.

 

Because they follow the Tao, Heaven itself will come to their aid, events will seem to conspire in rendering assistance at just the right time, as if they are safeguarded by divine powers. All manners of resources and allies will appear and rally to their cause, in unexpected ways that no one could foresee. Anyone who witnesses this process at work will know that, indeed, the Tao is great beyond compare.

[rene]

 

Here is Derek Lin's commentary on that

...

 

Do you agree with his ideas, dawei?

[dawei]

Do you agree with his ideas, dawei?

 

I didn't give it much thought personally... I've rarely looked at this chapter... but shard it as he connects humility with Tao, as Flowing Hand's post seems to do.

[rene]

I didn't give it much thought personally... I've rarely looked at this chapter... but shard it as he connects humility with Tao, as Flowing Hand's post seems to do.

Oh, okay, thanks!

[Mig]

Was this split from another thread?

 

Anyway... MH you aren't wrong, it's perhaps easier to understand and remember, but...the original text isn't that easy, so shouldn't we translate it awkwardly too?

 

The author chose to use "不敢為天下先" -- literally "not daring/brave to wei (be/act) first under heaven" -- rather than a single character, like 慈 and 俭, we get a 6-character phrase.

 

There were surely a couple of characters that could have been used if the author meant "humility", e.g. 谦 which is used for hexagram 15 humbling/modesty

I was just wondering if the reason of not having a noun for humility had something to do with a cultural aspect I don't understand or another way to express humility

[dust]

Like I said, there was at least one way of saying 'humility' or 'modesty' in a single character, as was done with the other 2 -- so it seems pretty certain that there was a particular reason that the author did not do this. That means, to me, that the meaning he intended was not simply 'humility'. It's something more specific than that.

 

"Not daring to be first under heaven", or however one translates it, seems to carry a lot of meaning. Though I'm not sure we really understand what all that meaning is.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

....

Edited March 6, 2017 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

....

Edited March 6, 2017 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Mig]

 

 

"Not daring to be first under heaven", or however one translates it, seems to carry a lot of meaning. Though I'm not sure we really understand what all that meaning is.

Would that mean not being arrogant? I was just curious as there is certainly other metaphors or references about the Dao or other chapters.

[dust]

It probably does mean that, but maybe not just that. Maybe we should ask what we think 'humility' means. And then we could figure out if it's the same as "Not daring...etc"

[cheya]

Well, I don't have a clue what it actually means,

but what would make sense to me is if it meant something like

"Not daring to act before heaven acts."

 

So... always following heaven's lead.

Humble before heaven.

Edited March 7, 2017 by cheya

[dawei]

Well, I don't have a clue what it actually means,

but what would make sense to me is if it meant something like

"Not daring to act before heaven acts."

 

So... always following heaven's lead.

Humble before heaven.

 

And as you follow heaven's lead, which is following Dao's lead... you get to the point of Flowing Hands (being at one with Dao) and Derek Lin (by having humility, one can connect with Dao)