CH. 67 - Three Treasures

[awaken]

http://terms.naer.edu.tw/detail/1301762/?index=30

[dust]

That's an excellent explanation.

 

Perhaps you would like to translate the major points (maybe not the whole thing -- it's a bit long-winded!) for anyone who doesn't read Chinese? If not I am happy to do it later today

[Marblehead]

Yes, a translation would be greatly helpful.

[dust]

Ohh K then... Here's the meat, with a bit of formatting (Chinese academics do love their unbroken walls of text)

 

 

The '3 treasures' are to say three treasured rules or virtues that, if they can be held to, can keep society harmonious.

 

The virtue of ci is expansive love, of the kind that turns a soft woman into a strong mother; a ruler with this kind of love will protect his people. Rather, it is not just to protect the people, but to absolutely maintain their well-being.

 

The virtue of jian is expansive frugality; not just being frugal, but exercising great restraint. Not just being thrifty with goods to keep the people from need, but to enable them to live and work and have children in peace, so that the land is expansive and the population great. Extravagance often leads to disaster (see DDJ ch.29).

 

To 'not dare to be the first under heaven' might be rephrased as the virtue of rang (to allow/concede/yield/offer). With this virtue of rang a leader puts others before himself, in all things humble and yielding, that the people will love and support him, respect him as the foremost leader. This is explained in (the previous) chapter 66, where the ruler is taught that the oceans govern the valleys by being lower than them.

 

Without the virtue of ci, there is bravery with no love; without the virtue of jian there is only a wide territory (and no people); without the virtue of rang there is only putting oneself first, which is a dead end.

 

 

 

It quotes Hanfeizi a lot, and goes on at some length about ideas which I think it explains well enough to begin with. So I've cut a lot out but that's the generalness of it.

Edited March 8, 2017 by dust

[Mig]

Awesome job n thank you. In your opinion how do you understand the third treasure n how to apply it in real life. I still don't know why there's no noun ??

[dust]

I think I'm looking at them all as verbs, now.

 

To be loving, to exercise restraint, and to be yielding.

 

They can all be both nouns and verbs, even. Tomato tomato.

 

Although the above explanation uses the character rang 讓 so that each virtue has its own character (慈, 俭, 讓), if Laozi had used just this one character instead of  不敢为天下先  it might have been even less clear what he meant.

 

My knowledge of ancient Chinese is basically nothing, so any deeper understanding is beyond me... all out of ideas

[dawei]

It quotes Hanfeizi a lot, and goes on at some length about ideas which I think it explains well enough to begin with. So I've cut a lot out but that's the generalness of it.

 

Most of this sounds like a chinese lady's explanation

 

Hanfeizi wrote the earliest commentary on LZ....   A legalist perspective, but worth reading.  

[dust]

Haha! Well, there are some wise Chinese ladies out there

 

Yeah, I probably should read Hanfeizi. I did scan the Hanfeizi bits in that article but wasn't keen on translating them in full... a translation within an interpretation of an article aiding the study of a text...

[dawei]

I'll email you the HFZ commentary on LZ... nothing ground breaking but just a good reference.

[flowing hands]

It is obvious to me that one of the treasures has got to be 'being at one with the Dao' etc. It stands to reason and one of the underlying points of the DDJ. Being merciful/compassionate must be another, for as Daoist we see all life equal, valued and sacred. By being efficient and economic with our resources means we can have the capacity to give and help others.

 

The three treasures all coming from a cultivated heart.

[Mig]

It is obvious to me that one of the treasures has got to be 'being at one with the Dao' etc. It stands to reason and one of the underlying points of the DDJ. Being merciful/compassionate must be another, for as Daoist we see all life equal, valued and sacred. By being efficient and economic with our resources means we can have the capacity to give and help others.

 

The three treasures all coming from a cultivated heart.

I am sorry, I don't understand, where is the third treasure? If I read correctly both in English and Chinese bao is treasure. Dunno if I missed the explanation of the third of why humility when the original text doesn't explicit announce the proper word

[Rombald]

I think I'd go for

 

Kindness

Non-extravagance

Non-dominance

 

I don't think "humility" is all that good for the last one, especially as the English meaning of "humility" is also tangled up with the second one. The third one means "not trying to take charge under heaven", although that does not rule out taking charge if called to do so, like Cincinnatus, say. 

 

It seems to me the first means rejection of cruelty and callousness; the second means rejection of waste, showiness, and celebration of affluence; and the third means rejection of the will to power.

[Mig]

I think I'd go for

 

Kindness

Non-extravagance

Non-dominance

 

I don't think "humility" is all that good for the last one, especially as the English meaning of "humility" is also tangled up with the second one. The third one means "not trying to take charge under heaven", although that does not rule out taking charge if called to do so, like Cincinnatus, say. 

 

It seems to me the first means rejection of cruelty and callousness; the second means rejection of waste, showiness, and celebration of affluence; and the third means rejection of the will to power.

It all depends what is the definition of kindness: it is certainly more of that maternal love.

As for humility, I have the impression is a cultural trait and translators tend to use "humility" to make it easy to understand. It is my understanding that this phrase remind us the way Chinese don't brag about what they know and they will prefer NOT to accept praise or else but be modest of their abilities and knowledge. It is an act of humility that you can see in Chinese communication.