Obama's attempts at undermining American democracy

[Miffymog]

I find it passing strange, as the expression goes, that not only the legacy media and the Obama surrogates but a significant number of citizens are essentially insisting -- demanding -- we not investigate what on face value may be the biggest and most disturbing scandal in US history.

 

It may or may not have happened. But there'll be no way it will ever be pinned on Obama just because the implications are too great. I'd be really surprised if any investigation actually finds out anything at all.

 

Making the claim is actually quite a safe thing to do though, because every one 'knows' its possible that it could have happened. And it doesn't matter how much it's denied, people will always disbelieve the denial (like the martian landings) and it quite nicely maintains a political tension which is one of Trumps modes of operation.

[Brian]

The prior administration now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If there was NOT a FISA warrant in place, then the wiretapping of Michael Flynn's conversations was unconstitutional and a scandal of Watergate proportions. If there was a FISA warrant, it is still a scandal of Watergate proportions.

 

A special prosecutor is in order.

[dawei]

Ummm... The FISA request would come from either the Director of the FBI or directly from the Attorney General. The suspension of disbelief required here, of course, is that the DoJ would make three separate and unprecedented FISA requests (yes, three -- turns out they were rejected twice) of such extreme significance, over a period of about six months, without the awareness of the President.

 

 

The prior administration now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If there was NOT a FISA warrant in place, then the wiretapping of Michael Flynn's conversations was unconstitutional and a scandal of Watergate proportions. If there was a FISA warrant, it is still a scandal of Watergate proportions.

 

A special prosecutor is in order.

 

I do agree that the eventual focus will be on the FISA (or not) issue.  Trump's actual tweet is but a peanut on a pile and not the real issue.   Of course Hillary's past dealings will be completely ignored and should be at this point but shows how she was given a pass given the Clinton Foundation.

[blackstar212]

The prior administration now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If there was NOT a FISA warrant in place, then the wiretapping of Michael Flynn's conversations was unconstitutional and a scandal of Watergate proportions. If there was a FISA warrant, it is still a scandal of Watergate proportions.

 

A special prosecutor is in order.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/319890-yes-eavesdropping-on-flynn-was-the-legal-obvious

[Brian]

Nope.

 

As soon as the collector realizes that one of the participants is a US citizen, the collector is required to stop the collection unless that part is covered by the FISA warrant. Unless you (or they) are suggesting the collection was done under a warrant issued by a regular court, in which case it isn't protected by FISA.

 

Caught between a rock and a hard place.

[blackstar212]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-phone-tapping-surveillance-issues.html?_r=0

 

 

What about wiretapping Michael Flynn’s calls with the Russian ambassador?

 

In a related matter, some conservatives have raised alarms about why the government eavesdropped on the late-December phone calls about sanctions between the Russian ambassador and Michael Flynn, who resigned last month as Mr. Trump’s national security adviser. But national security specialists say it is routine that counterintelligence officials would monitor the Russian ambassador, who is a clearly an agent of a foreign power, and so would “incidentally” pick up Mr. Flynn, too. The rules generally require officials to “minimize” the privacy intrusion by masking the names and data of incidentally intercepted Americans before sharing reports or transcripts of those calls more widely within the government. However, there is an exception if the conversation constituted foreign intelligence and the American’s identity is necessary to understand its significance, as would be the case with Mr. Flynn’s discussion of sanctions.

 

Now back to the serious threat of national concern. Trump and his involvement with Russia plotting to take over the world. Hyperbole for effect

Edited March 6, 2017 by blackstar212

[Miffymog]

The prior administration now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If there was NOT a FISA warrant in place, then the wiretapping of Michael Flynn's conversations was unconstitutional and a scandal of Watergate proportions. If there was a FISA warrant, it is still a scandal of Watergate proportions.

 

A special prosecutor is in order.

 

This is what I was thinking when it was first brought into the public domain, but it all seems to be quite acceptable ?!? I can see why Trump wants to make a thing about suspecting his own lines were tapped when Flynn's was done with no real controversy.

[windwalker]

The prior administration now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If there was NOT a FISA warrant in place, then the wiretapping of Michael Flynn's conversations was unconstitutional and a scandal of Watergate proportions. If there was a FISA warrant, it is still a scandal of Watergate proportions.

 

A special prosecutor is in order.

 "What the law does forbid is lying to any judicial officer to obtain any means of surveillance. What the law does forbid, under criminal penalty, is the misuse of FISA.

 

Both derive from the protections of the Fourth Amendment itself. Under section 1809, FISA makes it a crime for anyone to either “engage in” electronic surveillance under “color of law” under FISA without following the law’s restrictions, or “disclose” or “use” information gathered from it in contravention of the statute’s sharp constrictions."

 

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/yes-obama-could-be-prosecuted-if-involved-with-illegal-surveillance/

 

"This bring us to Watergate-on-Steroids, or #ObamaGate. Here are the problematic aspects of the Obama surveillance on Trump’s team, and on Trump himself.

 

First, it is not apparent FISA could ever be invoked.

 

Second, it is possible Obama’s team may have perjured themselves before the FISA court by withholding material information essential to the FISA court’s willingness to permit the government surveillance.

 

Third, it could be that Obama’s team illegally disseminated and disclosed FISA information in direct violation of the statute precisely prohibiting such dissemination and disclosure. FISA prohibits, under criminal penalty, Obama’s team from doing any of the three."

 

Team "Obama" should be worried right now...

[blackstar212]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-phone-tapping-surveillance-issues.html?_r=0

 

 

What about wiretapping Michael Flynn’s calls with the Russian ambassador?

 

In a related matter, some conservatives have raised alarms about why the government eavesdropped on the late-December phone calls about sanctions between the Russian ambassador and Michael Flynn, who resigned last month as Mr. Trump’s national security adviser. But national security specialists say it is routine that counterintelligence officials would monitor the Russian ambassador, who is a clearly an agent of a foreign power, and so would “incidentally” pick up Mr. Flynn, too. The rules generally require officials to “minimize” the privacy intrusion by masking the names and data of incidentally intercepted Americans before sharing reports or transcripts of those calls more widely within the government. However, there is an exception if the conversation constituted foreign intelligence and the American’s identity is necessary to understand its significance, as would be the case with Mr. Flynn’s discussion of sanctions.

 

Now back to the serious threat of national concern. Trump and his involvement with Russia plotting to take over the world. Hyperbole for effect

yeah no rock no hard place. Just keeping tabs on Russian ambassadors and a crooked team trumpster getting caught.

[Brian]

This is what I was thinking when it was first brought into the public domain, but it all seems to be quite acceptable ?!? I can see why Trump wants to make a thing about suspecting his own lines were tapped when Flynn's was done with no real controversy.

Only "no real controversy" because the legacy media says "nothing to see here."

 

FWIW, The New York Times now says "nothing to see here" but in January they reported that wiretapped information collected from Trump team communications had been delivered to The White House.

[Miffymog]

https://www.nytimes....ssues.html?_r=0

 

 

What about wiretapping Michael Flynn’s calls with the Russian ambassador?

 

In a related matter, some conservatives have raised alarms about why the government eavesdropped on the late-December phone calls about sanctions between the Russian ambassador and Michael Flynn, who resigned last month as Mr. Trump’s national security adviser. But national security specialists say it is routine that counterintelligence officials would monitor the Russian ambassador, who is a clearly an agent of a foreign power, and so would “incidentally” pick up Mr. Flynn, too. The rules generally require officials to “minimize” the privacy intrusion by masking the names and data of incidentally intercepted Americans before sharing reports or transcripts of those calls more widely within the government. However, there is an exception if the conversation constituted foreign intelligence and the American’s identity is necessary to understand its significance, as would be the case with Mr. Flynn’s discussion of sanctions.

 

Now back to the serious threat of national concern. Trump and his involvement with Russia plotting to take over the world. Hyperbole for effect 

 

God, all this just sends me going round in circles ...

Edited March 6, 2017 by Miffymog

[Brian]

yeah no rock no hard place. Just keeping tabs on Russian ambassadors and a crooked team trumpster getting caught.

If the Obama Administration had collected anything actionable (evidence of illegal activity gathered legally), they would have made arrests prior to Trump's inauguration. Instead, they changed NSA regulations to facilitate information about the wiretapped content being leaked to the Praetorian Guard legacy media without said media actually revealing anything of substance regarding the content itself. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and anyone who argues against a complete investigation of what on face value is the most atrocious abuse of power in US history should be asked to explain that curious position.

[dawei]

If the Obama Administration had collected anything actionable (evidence of illegal activity gathered legally), they would have made arrests prior to Trump's inauguration. Instead, they changed NSA regulations to facilitate information about the wiretapped content being leaked to the Praetorian Guard legacy media without said media actually revealing anything of substance regarding the content itself. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and anyone who argues against a complete investigation of what on face value is the most atrocious abuse of power in US history should be asked to explain that curious position.

 

I tend to agree with the arrest part... he lied in public but likely told the truth when questioned by the FBI... so nothing criminal occurred.    There was nothing wrong with his making a call and he did not promise any deal.

 

The contents seem likely very similar to Obama's off mic talk about "after the next elections, I can be more flexible" with the Russian official who said he would relate that to Putin 

[blackstar212]

If the Obama Administration had collected anything actionable (evidence of illegal activity gathered legally), they would have made arrests prior to Trump's inauguration. Instead, they changed NSA regulations to facilitate information about the wiretapped content being leaked to the Praetorian Guard legacy media without said media actually revealing anything of substance regarding the content itself. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and anyone who argues against a complete investigation of what on face value is the most atrocious abuse of power in US history should be asked to explain that curious position.

Oh yeah outrageous that we should monitor Russian ambassadors and catch a dirty politician with their hands in the cookie jar. HORRID!!

 

Its the world that the right wing supports we can never be too careful post 9/11 hmmmm?

 

Oh yeah unless it screws over right wingers then it is a horrible travesty of justice. Seems normal.

[blackstar212]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-wiretap-idUSKBN16D21T

 

 

YAWN yet another republican says no evidence. Oh they must be part of this coverup too!!

[blackstar212]

Oh crap people my apologies. I forgot we are dealing with a former President who was not even born in this country. He was born in Kenya yet we allowed this all to happen. Two terms and everything. He was not born in this country and he turned it into a Muslim country of all things. What have I been thinking???? I must be out of my mind.

 

Now at least we have Trump to bail us out of this mess.

[Brian]

Oh yeah outrageous that we should monitor Russian ambassadors and catch a dirty politician with their hands in the cookie jar. HORRID!!

 

Its the world that the right wing supports we can never be too careful post 9/11 hmmmm?

 

Oh yeah unless it screws over right wingers then it is a horrible travesty of justice. Seems normal.

Had the Obama Administration actually gathered any evidence suggesting any wrong-doing, much less "hands in the cookie jar," they most certainly would have acted upon it while they had the ability to do so. Instead, they leaked it, misrepresented it and then lied about it. You are OK with all of it , including abandonment of rule of law and what appears to be the biggest abuse of power in US history, as long as it is used against anyone who doesn't share your political ideology. Quite revealing.

[blackstar212]

Had the Obama Administration actually gathered any evidence suggesting any wrong-doing, much less "hands in the cookie jar," they most certainly would have acted upon it while they had the ability to do so. Instead, they leaked it, misrepresented it and then lied about it. You are OK with all of it , including abandonment of rule of law and what appears to be the biggest abuse of power in US history, as long as it is used against anyone who doesn't share your political ideology. Quite revealing.

Except there were NO wire taps. It is a LIE.

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/322489-gowdy-no-evidence-that-obama-wiretapped-trump

 

Time to get the liars team Trump out of office for wasting tax payers dollars with their insane fabrications.

[Brian]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-wiretap-idUSKBN16D21T

 

 

YAWN yet another republican says no evidence. Oh they must be part of this coverup too!!

How do you imagine he would have knowledge of secret wiretapping? That he has no knowledge carries no more weight than YOU having no knowledge.

 

The NY Times claimed to have knowledge of it prior to the inauguration.

[blackstar212]

How do you imagine he would have knowledge of secret wiretapping? That he has no knowledge carries no more weight than YOU having no knowledge.

 

The NY Times claimed to have knowledge of it prior to the inauguration.

https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-wiretap-trump-tower-not-obama-worry/

 

As usual going after a ghost that is not there.

 

“While the order would have been requested by some part of the executive branch, Obama can’t order anything. Nor can Trump,” says former NSA lawyer April Doss, who stresses that her comments are based only on public information. “The order has to come from the court, and the court operates independently.”

Edited March 6, 2017 by blackstar212

[Brian]

Except there were NO wire taps. It is a LIE.

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/322489-gowdy-no-evidence-that-obama-wiretapped-trump

 

Time to get the liars team Trump out of office for wasting tax payers dollars with their insane fabrications.

But you were just tickled pink that Flynn was "caught with his hands in the cookie jar" (which he wasn't but we can discuss that later if you wish) by the very same wiretaps you now claim didn't exist. And yet you demand no one check to find out the truth?

 

I don't claim you have lost your mind , BTW -- that would give you a pass for your highly questionable belief system and I prefer to keep you incredible but accountable.

[blackstar212]

But you were just tickled pink that Flynn was "caught with his hands in the cookie jar" (which he wasn't but we can discuss that later if you wish) by the very same wiretaps you now claim didn't exist. And yet you demand no one check to find out the truth?

 

I don't claim you have lost your mind , BTW -- that would give you a pass for your highly questionable belief system and I prefer to keep you incredible but accountable.

You see we have hard evidence ( I seems you do not care one iota about evidence) that Team Trump has been talking with Russia. This is clearly Trump trying with all desperation to get the monkey off his back. We get rid of him first then waste our time with a guy who claims our former POTUS was not born in this country.

 

Sorry but I did happen to read the story the boy who cried wolf.

[blackstar212]

But you were just tickled pink that Flynn was "caught with his hands in the cookie jar" (which he wasn't but we can discuss that later if you wish) by the very same wiretaps you now claim didn't exist. And yet you demand no one check to find out the truth?

 

I don't claim you have lost your mind , BTW -- that would give you a pass for your highly questionable belief system and I prefer to keep you incredible but accountable.

I am tickled pink that justice is being done. Sorry it happens against your guys. See I don't have a horse in the race. I think Obama and Trump are horrible. However lack of evidence is lack of evidence

[Brian]

https://www.wired.com/2017/03/feds-wiretap-trump-tower-not-obama-worry/

 

As usual going after a ghost that is not there.

 

“While the order would have been requested by some part of the executive branch, Obama can’t order anything. Nor can Trump,” says former NSA lawyer April Doss, who stresses that her comments are based only on public information. “The order has to come from the court, and the court operates independently.”

The Court either approves or rejects request from the DoJ. To imagine that the DoJ would make multiple FISA requests asking for Watergate-on-steroids surveillance of the opposition candidate without the President's consent is ludicrous.

[Brian]

You see we have hard evidence ( I seems you do not care one iota about evidence) that Team Trump has been talking with Russia. This is clearly Trump trying with all desperation to get the monkey off his back. We get rid of him first then waste our time with a guy who claims our former POTUS was not born in this country.

 

Sorry but I did happen to read the story the boy who cried wolf.

Ummm...

 

Obama literally sent a representative to Moscow prior to becoming President.

 

<shrug>