Breaking down the trigrams

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hi!

 

This has been churning and cycling around my noggin for a while and i'm even ashamed to ask because it's either a huge secret or so obvious i've missed it.

 

I'm also guessing there is a formal way, an intuitive way and a few more or less hidden/esoteric or oral transmissions in the manner of the proverbial onion

 

So, for a dummy like me, how would you describe the basics of the trigrams?

How do their lo-mid-hi position relate, examples are more than welcome!

 

Woud you say there is a hearchical order or does the hi-mid-lo place ent consist of a descriptive model say for instance:

Bottom line is the basic premise of something, middle is the agent, top is the result.

Or is more an interchange or dynamic where seen from above the outer two are the agents involved and the inner on is the result of their dynamic?

 

I understand that maybe there's an original or classic way to read them and perhaps these have lead to adaptation, borrowing and metaphor.

 

Can you help a brother out? I'm sure there are more bums thst me who'd like to get funky on this subject.

 

 

(Btw, sorry if i planted this in the litterary garden, it felt appropriate since I-King is the source right, but maybe i misstook, sorry bout that in this case )

[Jadespear]

Hi!

 

This has been churning and cycling around my noggin for a while and i'm even ashamed to ask because it's either a huge secret or so obvious i've missed it.

 

I'm also guessing there is a formal way, an intuitive way and a few more or less hidden/esoteric or oral transmissions in the manner of the proverbial onion

 

So, for a dummy like me, how would you describe the basics of the trigrams?

How do their lo-mid-hi position relate, examples are more than welcome!

 

Woud you say there is a hearchical order or does the hi-mid-lo place ent consist of a descriptive model say for instance:

Bottom line is the basic premise of something, middle is the agent, top is the result.

Or is more an interchange or dynamic where seen from above the outer two are the agents involved and the inner on is the result of their dynamic?

 

I understand that maybe there's an original or classic way to read them and perhaps these have lead to adaptation, borrowing and metaphor.

 

Can you help a brother out? I'm sure there are more bums thst me who'd like to get funky on this subject.

 

 

(Btw, sorry if i planted this in the litterary garden, it felt appropriate since I-King is the source right, but maybe i misstook, sorry bout that in this case )

 

Hi there,

 

I have also been wondering about trigrams.   I understand where they come from, but that is even more thought provoking...  I read once that the trigrams are the outcomes of the a2 + b2 = c2 pythagorean formula.  Where a and b are yin and yang energies... and the c is the outcome .... or the result which is symbolically expressed in trigrams and hexagrams...

 

As to the original meaning I really don't know...  but what I have learned through literary study is that the trigrams represent physical phenomenon and patterns of change that occur in our world...  so because taoism basically puts forth the idea that everything in existence is an outcome of the two primeval energies and qualities of yin and yang... yin being passive or giving way, while yang being creatively pursuing, generating action, etc..    All the trigrams and hexagrams represent physical processes and patterns of yin and yang interplay, exchanges, or etc.

 

So therefore,  the trigrams are not always read from bottom to top or top to bottom... they are seen as a whole.  Hence we have the titles for trigrams like - the mountain, the river, the heavens, etc.  

 

What I don't really understand is why the Pythagorean ( a 2 + b2 = c 2 ).. formula for a right triangle was used to divine the symbols themselves....     ???

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I'm down with them representing change and patterns within physical phenomena and the endless shifting and interplay of more or less dynamic interactions.

 

I'm baffled that the Pythagorean formula coincides with the trigrams, pretty cool!

Is it likely that it was divine those symbols? I always thought they sprung from the refining of the yin-yang dynamic, when lesser and great yin and yang (eyes and fish so to speak) came into the illustration the broken and whole lines were another way of portraying it. A third line gave more possibilities of interplay.

 

I read an article (linked from here i immagine ) that describes the King Wen sequence as an accurate description of the horizon and the mountains visible from it from where King Wen or his relative (i'm lost on the "Who's Who in I-Ching" game-show) sat. In prison i think. Or something.

 

Thing is the trigram for lake seems symbolic. I liked them described like a family relationship but that still doesnt quite paint a picture.

I'd like to use the trigrams on a practical level, identify them in action so to speak. I dont even know if that is a reasonable way to treat them

 

I understand hexagrams describe situations more accurately but the sheer amount of info, six lines, transitory and fixed, yada yada, it's a bit much to grip and relying on their commentaries is pretty dense as well as shot-in-the-dark-ish. I keep thinking that they could describe anything if one decides how to interpret them on a systematic application thing.

 

Right now it feels like Rubiks cube before i learned there were algorithms and what they're supposed to do. Inscrutable in its simplicity.

[Taomeow]

I might write more here when I have the time, but for starters, RL,

 

consider that a hexagram is four rather than two trigrams, i.e. the lower, the upper, and two nuclear. 

 

Consider also that the changing line (or lines) change the dynamics of not one hexagram but two, with not two trigrams in each but four.  To a total of 8 trigrams to consider in every reading where you have obtained a changing line (or lines).  

 

The plot thickens... 

 

Later... 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I might write more here when I have the time, but for starters, RL,

 

consider that a hexagram is four rather than two trigrams, i.e. the lower, the upper, and two nuclear. 

 

Consider also that the changing line (or lines) change the dynamics of not one hexagram but two, with not two trigrams in each but four.  To a total of 8 trigrams to consider in every reading where you have obtained a changing line (or lines).  

 

The plot thickens... 

 

Later... 

Dude! Thanks! But gah! I should've known this was going to increase exponentially in the "stuff to keep In mind"-department.

Looking forward to hear more!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

If i were to say that one bigram is part of a process revolving around the centering point of rest (say the null point at the top and bottom of a sine wave with center/earth as the baseline), for instance the cycle of seasons in a year or the sun and moon interplay during the day, would it be reasonable to assume that a third line adds a specifying demarcation, as an additional rising and falling within the process of rest-increase-peak/rest-decrease-bottom/rest?

 

As there transition between winter and spring draws near there is a smaller transition between winter declining (lets call it winter-fall because fall is the preamble of the end) and spring taking shape (spring-winter, as winter is both the end and beginning of a new cycle). So a cycle of a year can be said to be

 

Minor yang, yang, minor yang, minor yin, yin, minor yin.

 

If i were to add a third multiplier to this a year has middle seasons and a resting phase (earth) and the breakdown looks - in the immortal words of Run DMC - "... a little something like thisssss"

 

Yin minor yang, yang minor yang, yin yang, yang yang, yang minor yang etc etc.

 

This is as far as i'm getting with a method of analysis based on a binary matrix, if i'm getting hot right now it's because i'm trying to understand it by power of yin and yang (which i believe i understand) and adding more lines is going to stop this description from being useful.

 

I welcome if someone takes a hatchet to my theory, i'm just looking for a way to start digesting this, i'm guessing at least a few bums might find it helpful as well.

 

 

 

 

PS - Speaking of hatchets: pardon my OP, it's a butchering of the english language and i feel a little shame, all the while i cant be arsed to fix it. I dont want to blame it on the fact that i was a little tipsy at the time but yeah, i was.

[Taomeow]

If you want to go binary on the I Ching/ Yijing, check out the Tài Xuán Jīng, The Elemental Changes, by Yang Xiong (53 BCE--18 CE).  It is organized into 81 tetragrams instead of 64 trigrams. 

 

If you want to stay with the trigrams, however, a good way to assess what they signify and what each line stands for is to study the 8 trigrams in their traditional context, that of the bagua superimposed on the wuxing.   This is quite an endeavor, since each trigram must be viewed in several contexts simultaneously.   To name a few:

 

That of its origin, i.e. a traditional designation of a trigram as a member of a family of eight, with father, mother, eldest son, middle son, youngest son, eldest daughter, etc..  That of its type of qi (the names like Lake or Mountain are metaphors for that) and "personality."  That of its timing (Spring, Late Summer, etc.).  That of its strength or weakness...  be careful with this one, lots of sources are confused on that issue and "carve in stone" that "yang is strong and yin is weak" -- this is a red flag raised by nincompoopness to announce its presence.  The strength or weakness of a trigram is determined by its position -- e.g. Fire under Metal makes it weak, Earth under Metal makes it strong.  Within an individual trigram, the position of the individual line is assessed for its 'appropriateness' -- that's where you look at yin-yang interplay closely and decide (or research) whether a yang line under two yin is an "appropriate" position for that line or not,  and so on.  (There's lots of "inappropriate" and "inauspicious" situations in the I Ching/ Yi Jing, that's because Yi refers to irregular changes, the kind of changes that happen in an off-balance world.  The regular natural changes are described by different systems.)

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Delicious!

 

"carve in stone" that "yang is strong and yin is weak" -- this is a red flag raised by nincompoopness to announce its presence.

Now that i'll have embroidered and framed.

[Taomeow]

[wandelaar]

This is also a question I have been wondering about. Given the meaning of the broken and unbroken lines (and possibly of the changing and unchanging lines) how can you somehow arrive at the meaning of the trigrams by just considering the pattern of lines in the trigrams. It seems to me that the meaning given to the trigrams largely ignores the meanings already given to the lines. And - at least in my mind - this results in an illogical jumble of meanings that obstructs my further understanding of the I Ching. But I don't like this conclusion, so maybe someone here can make me see how it all fits together?

Edited May 21, 2018 by wandelaar

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Like thelerner said a while ago: i wish taomeow was here.

Been saying that to myself a lot lately but yeah.

WWTMD?

 

On 2018-05-06 at 1:43 PM, wandelaar said:

This is also a question I have been wondering about. Given the meaning of the broken and unbroken lines (and possible of the changing and unchanging lines) how can you somehow arrive at the meaning of the trigrams by just considering the pattern of lines in the trigrams. It seems to me that the meaning given to the trigrams largely ignores the meanings already given to the lines. And - at least in my mind - this results in an illogical jumble of meanings that obstructs my further understanding of the I Ching. But I don't like this conclusion, so maybe someone here can make me see how it all fits together?

 

Right? I remember reading something like the trigram called Lake and that it was associated in a familial role as that of the third (meaning youngest) daughter.

 

There is yin over two yangs, someone (probably on here, but who?) mentioned

its lakey-ness could be attributed to water being kept afloat and supported by the double yang strenght of the soil and bedrock and that it was similar to the youngest female member of a family because she’d have a yin appearance/demeanor but with so many siblings and a strong family to support her in life her root and inner truth would be strong and creative.

 

I’m most likely paraphrasing if not misquoting the Bum who wrote it but i cant find the thread so i’ll assume responsibility for unintended spreading of hogwash.

 

But i think your point is highly relevant @wandelaar , how is it that three lines of yin/yang intermingling become Lakes, Youngest Daughters and Joyous Openness for example.

It is confusing.

 

Since i started the thread i’ve been thinking of this aspect/approach:

 

The trigram as a human being - three dan ti in a given configuration.

Keeping with Lake an interpretation could be that this person has a positive fill in lower dan ti and middle dan ti while their upper dan ti is receptive, meaning their mental/mind/spirit level is receptive and supported with a strong positive base of physical/structural health and a externally creative emotional/energetical life.

 

plus i’m trying to figure out wether they should be read from top to bottom or vice versa.

 

Edit:

regarding the above last paragraph i’m considering a sequential direction in relation to the trigram possibly representing a human being, since body is built from bottom up (resting upon earth going to heaven) and a persons energy comes from heaven and moves to earth, at least that is how i’ve been taught.

Considering this as a hexagram i take it the main context needs to be read as TM suggested earlier, as in fire under water is water boiling, besides deeper analysis with the two middle trigrams. Just a note for well, idk, having said it i guess.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[wandelaar]

I have no specialist knowledge of the I Ching so I can not help here. The above problem is one of the main obstacles in my understanding of the meaning of the trigrams.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I have no specialist knowledge of the I Ching so I can not help here. The above problem is one of the main obstacles in my understanding of the meaning of the trigrams.

 

We’re in the same boat then.

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-05-21 at 7:17 PM, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

 

There is yin over two yangs, someone (probably on here, but who?) mentioned

its lakey-ness could be attributed to water being kept afloat and supported by the double yang strenght of the soil and bedrock 

 

On 2018-05-21 at 7:17 PM, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I’m most likely paraphrasing if not misquoting the Bum who wrote it but i cant find 

I think this is the thread you are referring to. 

When I read it, the first thing that comes to my mind is :

Isn't it a marvellous coincidence that the eight combinations of three binary possibilities ALL have a perfect symbolic match to the natural (whatever, since the thread do not go in to what the trigrams stand for) which they correlate to. 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-05-06 at 1:43 PM, wandelaar said:

It seems to me that the meaning given to the trigrams largely ignores the meanings already given to the lines. 

Could it be that they are different things? That they represent totally different, not even close, energetic aspects? 

Which is how I was taught..... 

[wandelaar]

30 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Could it be that they are different things? That they represent totally different, not even close, energetic aspects? 

Which is how I was taught..... 

 

That's an interesting viewpoint. Do you have more information on that?

[Mudfoot]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

That's an interesting viewpoint. Do you have more information on that?

Yes. PM me if the subject sounds interesting. 

I also have some ramblings on the subject in my PPD, although I avoided to write what I was taught there. 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

21 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

 

I think this is the thread you are referring to. 

When I read it, the first thing that comes to my mind is :

Isn't it a marvellous coincidence that the eight combinations of three binary possibilities ALL have a perfect symbolic match to the natural (whatever, since the thread do not go in to what the trigrams stand for) which they correlate to. 

 

Thank you!! I think it is!

 

Yeah the marvel is real on that point, but seeing as daoist symbolism and organization of thought usually is it ought to not be a coincidence