Mair 6:1

[Taoist Texts]

 I am pretty convinced I should continue with the process we currently have with Mair but I need to find a good way to supplement the sections for better clarity and understanding.

 

 

I would say lets continue and add other transls when and if somebody asks for it

[dawei]

I would say lets continue and add other transls when and if somebody asks for it

 

That's my gut too... in this way, we 'test' the newer approach going forward... although there is something to be said for going back so the entire study is the same but folks may be less inclined to comment as it was already covered.

[Stosh]

Fine n good, but answer me this before you go on  , is the Sage to y'als mind exemplary of behavior which is beneficial , or problematic...?

[dawei]

Fine n good, but answer me this before you go on  , is the Sage to y'als mind exemplary of behavior which is beneficial , or problematic...?

 

Trick question

 

As from his POV (which would be heaven's POV and Thus), it is really neither (and then ZZ might say therefore, both).

 

But I think it could be viewed beneficial in regards to nurturing the ten thousand to go their own Way... but could be seen as problematic to the everyday man who feels there is some insensitivity to be so 'hands off'.

[Stosh]

Trick question

 

As from his POV (which would be heaven's POV and Thus), it is really neither (and then ZZ might say therefore, both).

 

But I think it could be viewed beneficial in regards to nurturing the ten thousand to go their own Way... but could be seen as problematic to the everyday man who feels there is some insensitivity to be so 'hands off'.

Good evasive answer. I might have said similar ,, But ! compare that against Chuangs horses  Nina Correa's  translation  (.. or Watson or Legge)  and they attribute the name of Sage to the conventional thinking "wiseman" who does Not view the world from the POV of heaven.

My point being that although I totally agree with you , and think thats an appropriate style of answer which has some well done consideration behind it .... The layperson reading those translations would have to understand the mindset being promoted before reading it , (to understand the Sage was the conventional guy ,, rather than the protagonist of that chapter,) ... and so though you may proceed as you like ,such minefields are in front of the person trying to follow along , (until addressed.)  

[dawei]

Good evasive answer. I might have said similar ,, But ! compare that against Chuangs horses  Nina Correa's  translation  (.. or Watson or Legge)  and they attribute the name of Sage to the conventional thinking "wiseman" who does Not view the world from the POV of heaven.

My point being that although I totally agree with you , and think thats an appropriate style of answer which has some well done consideration behind it .... The layperson reading those translations would have to understand the mindset being promoted before reading it , (to understand the Sage was the conventional guy ,, rather than the protagonist of that chapter,) ... and so though you may proceed as you like ,such minefields are in front of the person trying to follow along , (until addressed.)  

 

This is the crux of it...  the eyes we are looking through has a heart and mind that has some historical basis for our understanding, reaction, and opinion.    

 

I think we are always going to find such diversity or disparity in looking at anything.

 

Me, personally, I put myself in the shoes of the 'other' and see through their eyes...  in this case, I see it the same through my eyes... but others will not see it that way.

 

There is the famous Zen story of:  Mountains; no mountains; Mountains.

 

In Daoist terms, this is like:   Laozi; Zhuangzi; Laozi

 

That is why Laozi is much more accessible... he talks mystery and manifest with equal ease.  ZZ talks detached and forgetting to forget.

 

Your bolded part is actually a very astute observation and quite right.  We sometimes skip that and simply claim it as inherent in our explanation of passages or chapters.  Maybe the circular problem is: We can't explain their mindset without appealing to their writings.

[Stosh]

This is the crux of it...  the eyes we are looking through has a heart and mind that has some historical basis for our understanding, reaction, and opinion.    

 

I think we are always going to find such diversity or disparity in looking at anything.

 

Me, personally, I put myself in the shoes of the 'other' and see through their eyes...  in this case, I see it the same through my eyes... but others will not see it that way.

 

There is the famous Zen story of:  Mountains; no mountains; Mountains.

 

In Daoist terms, this is like:   Laozi; Zhuangzi; Laozi

 

That is why Laozi is much more accessible... he talks mystery and manifest with equal ease.  ZZ talks detached and forgetting to forget.

 

Your bolded part is actually a very astute observation and quite right.  We sometimes skip that and simply claim it as inherent in our explanation of passages or chapters.  Maybe the circular problem is: We can't explain their mindset without appealing to their writings.

That may be so, no doubt,, but  seeing that the point of relating the text of one language to another ,, then properly done , it needs to be done so as to make sense to the reader.

Many years ago  King James recognized that centuries of translations had rendered many parts of the christian texts  nonsensical , " Cast thy bread upon the wet faces" was one such example , long story short , he told his guys to stop arguing and fix the damn thing, ( by negotiation )  Yielding the eloquent and beloved -King James version. 

[dawei]

That may be so, no doubt,, but  seeing that the point of relating the text of one language to another ,, then properly done , it needs to be done so as to make sense to the reader.

Many years ago  King James recognized that centuries of translations had rendered many parts of the christian texts  nonsensical , " Cast thy bread upon the wet faces" was one such example , long story short , he told his guys to stop arguing and fix the damn thing, ( by negotiation )  Yielding the eloquent and beloved -King James version. 

 

bolded part is simply subjective... our experience...  we'll likely never please all the people's thoughts and opinions and reactions.  That is the challenge we face;  that is the challenge we are willing to face in discussion.   It is up to folks to decide their reactionary side in regards to what they accept or not, challenge or not.   We want that kind of reaction, interaction, and challenge but in the end, each of us must find how we move on

[Stosh]

bolded part is simply subjective... our experience...  we'll likely never please all the people's thoughts and opinions and reactions.  That is the challenge we face;  that is the challenge we are willing to face in discussion.   It is up to folks to decide their reactionary side in regards to what they accept or not, challenge or not.   We want that kind of reaction, interaction, and challenge but in the end, each of us must find how we move on

Well you can see as well as I , though we stand on somewhat different giants , that the sage of the horse chapter is not the man aligned with the rationality of The Greater Tao. So I respectfully disagree that this is one of those subjective things that should be left to befuddle.  

[dawei]

Well you can see as well as I , though we stand on somewhat different giants , that the sage of the horse chapter is not the man aligned with the rationality of The Greater Tao. So I respectfully disagree that this is one of those subjective things that should be left to befuddle.

 

In fact, I have no thought on the sage of the horse compared to the Greater Tao...  No memory of those passages...  and maybe that is what you're asking for... more distinct discussion on such ideas ?   

[Stosh]

In fact, I have no thought on the sage of the horse compared to the Greater Tao...  No memory of those passages...  and maybe that is what you're asking for... more distinct discussion on such ideas ?   

Horses hooves chapter Chuang tzu spoken of earlier, 

Greater Tao , is the proper nominative for what y'all might call heaven (contrasting with the tao of man) , but I chose not to make a stink about  

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we will talk more about horses later.

[Rara]

I'm late to class as usual but if I may, I find what is done here very useful.

 

As TT said, if we have our own other understandings and translations, then we can chime in where necessary. I see no problem with the current format and benefit greatly from what you all have to say about these sections

 

But going further forward, once these inner chapters are done, I may open up some threads on the outer chapters. I haven't the time to write them out nor keep to any particular structure but I'm reading them for a second time at the moment and some things are just jumping out at me to speak about. I find some of these chapters easier to comprehend...I suppose it's down to a shift of time period and writing style in which they were written.

 

I did a similar thing a couple of years ago and I remember a few useful conversations about The Big Concealment and Robber Chih. In fact, I may revisit those threads soon as my understanding is far better now.

 

Well, if Burton Watson's translation is any good, that is

Edited March 11, 2017 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Yes, IMO Watson's translation should be the English standard.

[morning dew]

Like I said before, I think this has been a great project, and I've enjoyed dipping in and out of it over the years. I'm happy to come along for the ride however you all want to organise it.

 

The true man of old did not dream when he slept and did not worry when he was awake.  His food was not savory, his breathing was deep.  The breathing of the true man is from his heels, the breathing of the common man is from his throat.  The words of those who unwillingly yield catch in their throats as though they were retching.  Those whose desires are deep-seated will have shallow natural reserves.

 

Why does the true man not breathe from the abdomen? Is this breathing from the heels just a poetic way of saying the true man is grounded in the Dao (or doing wu wei) and isn't buffeted by desires that waste energy? Or is there a hidden meaning here?

[Marblehead]

 

Why does the true man not breathe from the abdomen? Is this breathing from the heels just a poetic way of saying the true man is grounded in the Dao (or doing wu wei) and isn't buffeted by desires that waste energy? Or is there a hidden meaning here?

 

I think you have a good handle on it.  I mean, the Pure Man doesn't literally breathe from his heels.  It's through either the nose or the mouth unless you make new holes in your body that reach to the lungs.

[Stosh]

Manifestations begot of the formless origin, likened to an unceasing bellows,, the consumate man, From his deepest formless center , brings forth genuine form into the world, across the bridge of his very breath.

Baser men may bring forth forms but , they are unsourced in the divine, shallow and do not aspire to the same spiritual greatness. unless by intellectual effort or accident.

 

Or so , I might see it.

[cheya]

 

Why does the true man not breathe from the abdomen? Is this breathing from the heels just a poetic way of saying the true man is grounded in the Dao (or doing wu wei) and isn't buffeted by desires that waste energy? Or is there a hidden meaning here?

 

 

If you do qi practices, you may stumble upon another interpretation of this, as you notice the palpable qi flow coming up from your feet. Qi is a kind of breath too. Rainbow Vein has a somewhat other view on this, maybe she will chime in.

[morning dew]

I think you have a good handle on it.  I mean, the Pure Man doesn't literally breathe from his heels.  It's through either the nose or the mouth unless you make new holes in your body that reach to the lungs.

 

Ha! The hidden meaning I had in mind was what cheya mentioned further down.

[morning dew]

Manifestations begot of the formless origin, likened to an unceasing bellows,, the consumate man, From his deepest formless center , brings forth genuine form into the world, across the bridge of his very breath.

Baser men may bring forth forms but , they are unsourced in the divine, shallow and do not aspire to the same spiritual greatness. unless by intellectual effort or accident.

 

Or so , I might see it.

 

Yeah, I like this too – being in line with the Dao, I'm guessing? It reminds me of section 1 (I think) with the wind blowing through all the empty holes in objects, such as trees, and people.

Edited April 12, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

If you do qi practices, you may stumble upon another interpretation of this, as you notice the palpable qi flow coming up from your feet. Qi is a kind of breath too. Rainbow Vein has a somewhat other view on this, maybe she will chime in.

 

Yeah, that's my experience, personally. I did Qigong a few months before I switched to Tai Chi. One of the exercises, which I still do every morning, was Hua Gong.

 

He taught us to begin it by drawing up Earth energy through the soles of the feet (although at a point near the front near the toes), up the legs and up to the abdomen, and then drawing down celestial energy through the crown of the head and down the body to meet the Earth energy. After a few weeks, I began to notice 'energy' buzzing around my feet and ankles, and wanting to come up my legs, when I would sit on the beach.

[Stosh]

Yeah, I like this too – being in line with the Dao, I'm guessing? It reminds me of section 1 (I think) with the wind blowing through all the empty holes in objects, such as trees, and people.

well actually I was looking to some ideas from a brief excursion to look at yogic sutras .

I'm seeing a great deal of similarity in certain ideas. , and because I feel that high writing in that age was  .. polysemic ,so cross Comparisons are easily drawn. Just like the discussions of the ancient greeks can shed light on certain arguments of that classical era in China. 

for  example : permutations of  'Atha yoganushasanam' easily cross compares with a biblical line , 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'. 

But not to dismiss your allusion, certainly the question of whether there is indeed deeper truth in the words of men or if its just noises like the chirping of birds was considered. 

 

.............

HMM , I said that too obscurely, Waxing poetic by the grace of another tradition , I applied it to the subject at hand. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Stosh

[morning dew]

well actually I was looking to some ideas from a brief excursion to look at yogic sutras .

I'm seeing a great deal of similarity in certain ideas. , and because I feel that high writing in that age was  .. polysemic ,so cross Comparisons are easily drawn. Just like the discussions of the ancient greeks can shed light on certain arguments of that classical era in China. 

for  example : permutations of  'Atha yoganushasanam' easily cross compares with a biblical line , 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'. 

 

That's interesting. I've not heard of the term 'Atha yoganushasanam' or read the Yoga Sutras, but, having looked it up a little, I can see how there might be a link there.

 

Also, yes, I would agree that you can find links between cultures, for whatever reasons. I don't think 'Eastern' and 'Western' thought are two completely discrete, contrasting blocks, personally. If you dig around enough, you can always find old philosophers who agree (at least in part) with people in other cultures across the world (or at least I did in my brief explorations a little while back).

Edited April 14, 2017 by morning dew

[Stosh]

Im toying with the idea, that ,pre scientific method, tautology may have been a way used for knowing when things were true. While we formulate a theory, devise tests confirming or denying it, they may have looked to see if a statement was true either way one looked at it.

In our writing we describe the logic path , the evidence any should recognize, to prove points. Their wise writing might present their proof in terms of being undeniably true.

I am, that I am.or It is what it is. etc

 

So in writing the ddj or cz, it should be unavoidably true , that a glass could be useful being empty or full, and likewise useless when empty or full. Both perspectives are satisfied, in any case. Being mother to the manifest, is a male assertive creative act , the destructive act ,death, is the ending of assertion and feminine. .or vice versa.

[Marblehead]

... they may have looked to see if a statement was true either way one looked at it.

I would recommend against trying to ride a bicycle backwards though.

 

Some things go forward in a straight line and other thing go 'round in circles.