Mair 6:1

[Marblehead]

To know the actions of heaven and to know the actions of man, that's the ultimate!  She who knows the actions of heaven will live in accordance with heaven.  She who knows the actions of men can nourish what is unknown to her intellect with what is known to her intellect.  Thus she can live out the years allotted to her by heaven and not die midway.  This is the height of knowledge.

However, there is still some difficulty.  Namely, knowledge has to depend on something for its consequent accuracy, but that which it depends on is particularly unstable.  How do we know that what we attribute to heaven may not be due to man, and that what we attribute to man may not be due to heaven?  Only when there is a true man is there true knowledge.

Only one whose knowledge can ascend the heights of the Way can be like this.

What is a true man?  The true man of old did not oppose the minority, did not strive for heroic accomplishments, and did not scheme over affairs.  Such being the case, he did not regret it when he made a mistake nor feel smug when he was right.  Such being the case, he could climb high without trembling, enter water without getting soaked, and enter fire without feeling hot.

The true man of old did not dream when he slept and did not worry when he was awake.  His food was not savory, his breathing was deep.  The breathing of the true man is from his heels, the breathing of the common man is from his throat.  The words of those who unwillingly yield catch in their throats as though they were retching.  Those whose desires are deep-seated will have shallow natural reserves.

The true man of old knew neither fondness for life nor aversion to death, was neither elated by going forth nor reluctant to return.  Casually he went and casually he came.  He neither forgot {{An important word in the Chuang Tzu that became a technical term in later Taoism, especially for those schools that emphasized meditation.  It signifies the emptying of the mind that brings utter calm and peace.}} what his beginning had been nor sought what his end would be.  Happily he received and forgetfully he returned.  This is what is meant by not detracting from the Way with the mind, not assisting heaven with the human.  This is what we call a true man.

Such being the case, his mind was forgetful, his visage calm, his forehead beamingly broad.  Austere as autumn, warm as spring, his joy and anger were in touch with the four seasons.  He was compatible with all things but no one knew his limits.  {{Therefore the sage, in his conduct of war, might forfeit his state, but would not lose the hearts of his people.  His benefits might extend for ten thousand generations, but it would not be for love of man.  Therefore, he who delights in linking up with things is not a sage.  He who is partial is not humane.  He who is negligent of the seasons is not worthy.  He who cannot perceive the linkage between benefit and harm is not a gentleman.  He who loses himself through pursuit of fame is not a nobleman.  He who destroys himself through untruthfulness is not a freeman.  Men such as Hu Puhsieh, Wu Kuang, Poyi, Shuch'i, Master Chi, Hsŭ Yu, Chi T'o, and Shent'u Ti were all servants of freemen.  They strove to delight others, but did nothing to delight themselves.  All of these individuals were unbending moralists who were executed, ended up committing suicide, or went mad.}}

The true man of old
Was towering in stature but never collapsed,
Seemed insufficient but accepted nothing;
Aloofly independent but not obstinate,
Amply empty but not ostentatious,
Merry, as though he were happy,
Demurring, as though he were compelled,
Suffused with an alluring charm,
Endowed with an arresting integrity,
Stern, as though he were worldly,
Arrogant, as though he were uncontrollable,
Reticent, as though he preferred to clam up,
Absent-minded, as though he forgot what to say.

Thus his likes were reduced to one and his dislikes were also reduced to one.  His "one" was one and his "not one" was also one.  Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.  He in whom neither heaven nor man is victorious over the other is called a true man.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Marblehead

[Taoist Texts]

He in whom neither heaven nor man is victorious over the other is called a true man.

 

 

From the previous chapters i gathered that Heaven was supposed to prevail.

[Marblehead]

From the previous chapters i gathered that Heaven was supposed to prevail.

 

Eventually, in the long run, it does.  However, in the short run we still must live in the world of man.

 

While we are still here it is both.  One foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery.

[Taoist Texts]

She who knows the actions of men can nourish what is unknown to her intellect with what is known to her intellect. 

 

 

This is curious too.

[Marblehead]

This is curious too.

 

Agree.  I think it is poorly worded.  The point being that knowing the knowable allow us to deal with the Manifest.  The unknown to the intellect is the experience (inner) of the Mystery.  As has been discussed before, we cannot now the Mystery but it can be experienced.

[Stosh]

Do as you choose, But I just want to say for anyone who wants to separate wheat from chaff, this segment is so screwed it should be burned and the ashes hidden. IMO. :)Carry on

[Marblehead]

Well, at least we get the opportunity to think.  That's good.

[Stosh]

Well, at least we get the opportunity to think.  That's good.

Go right ahead suit yourself, really! I dont want to halt review if ones gaining any total benefit. I just dont want to be implicitly endorsing translations I dont like by being politically correct and keeping mum when them parts surface.

Why? one could legitimately ask. To be politically correct you garner less animosity, and others are less bummed out.

True. I agree it can be raining on parades. But , Such political correctness predominating, leaves those inclined to critical examination of the texts unsupported, they may just come to the conclusion that everyone is covering up the flaws, or pretending they understand that which really IS contorted.

In recent days Ive seen several people giving up on finding the good stuff, because its buried in BS. Which is a shame because there is a lot of good stuff ,potentially new ideas, and support of worthwhile pursuit.

[Marblehead]

I never spoke to your criticism of the translation.

 

I actually find it constructive that we are able to openly express our dislike of how certain sections are poorly worded.  We have done a fair amount of mental exercise in order to do that.

 

I am posting the sections without comment intentionally.  I think the feedback being submitted is very useful.  And I have never tried to justify how Mair translated until after  some one else has commented.

 

But at least we are doing the study.  The translation being used was beyond my control.

[dawei]

But at least we are doing the study.  The translation being used was beyond my control.

 

I've come to not appreciate Mair's take 

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now 

 

But here is Eno's notes to this section:

 

This description of the “True Man” – a term that appears only in Chapter 6 of the Inner Chapters, is not easy to make full sense of, but the main message is clear. The chapter sets up a duality between Heaven (what is natural and spontaneous) and man (what is social and premeditated), and while celebrating Heaven, its depiction of the True Man as an embodiment of a string of seeming contradictions creates as a model the person who is able to exemplify a second-level unity of the two realms, unifying both unity and disunity themselves. The strategy of seeking a higher level perspective that will unite contradictions in a way that words cannot recalls the method of Chapter 2.

 

Found this line interesting..

 

Mair:

 Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.

 

Eno:

In his unity he was a follower of Heaven, in his disunity he was a follower of man.

 

Burton:

In being one, he was acting as a companion of Heaven. In not being one, he was acting as a companion of man. 

[Stosh]

 

I've come to not appreciate Mair's take 

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now 

 

But here is Eno's notes to this section:

 

This description of the “True Man” – a term that appears only in Chapter 6 of the Inner Chapters, is not easy to make full sense of, but the main message is clear. The chapter sets up a duality between Heaven (what is natural and spontaneous) and man (what is social and premeditated), and while celebrating Heaven, its depiction of the True Man as an embodiment of a string of seeming contradictions creates as a model the person who is able to exemplify a second-level unity of the two realms, unifying both unity and disunity themselves. The strategy of seeking a higher level perspective that will unite contradictions in a way that words cannot recalls the method of Chapter 2.

 

Found this line interesting..

 

Mair:

 Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.

 

Eno:

In his unity he was a follower of Heaven, in his disunity he was a follower of man.

 

Burton:

In being one, he was acting as a companion of Heaven. In not being one, he was acting as a companion of man. 

 

And is the point confusingly that Mair's version is the best? and the other two suck?... which they do. IMO

[Stosh]

On the path of translation, theres zero reason to maintain the elusive language. Its just not in classical chinese anymore, we dont have to be obtuse to prevent ticked warlords from cutting heads off, and nobody actually speaks classical chinese anymore with the fluency to have all the references being self evident.

"Being attuned to the unified nature of the world , a wise man avoids the self destructive mental pitfalls consequential to a polemically divided worldview most folks have , keeping them befuddled and on an emotional rollercoaster."

Stoshzi circa 2017.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I think it is sad that Lin Yutang did not do a complete translation of the Chuang Tzu.  Because of this I prefer Watson's translation.

[Marblehead]

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now 

 

I hear you.  Cause and effect brought us to where we are now.

[Stosh]

I think it is sad that Lin Yutang did not do a complete translation of the Chuang Tzu.  Because of this I prefer Watson's translation.

Why arent you doing Watsons, or composite of the two ,, Watson supplementing Lin ? then.

[Marblehead]

Why arent you doing Watsons, or composite of the two ,, Watson supplementing Lin ? then.

 

Because the study was started using Mair because of something he said in his introduction.

 

I picked it up in order to keep the study going. 

[dawei]

And is the point confusingly that Mair's version is the best? and the other two suck?... which they do. IMO

 

You feel Eno and Burton suck ?

 

Why arent you doing Watsons, or composite of the two ,, Watson supplementing Lin ? then.

 

But then suggest doing [burton] Watson ?

 

 

For the record...  I'm open to changing gears.   

 

1. Go back to the first posting and simply add Burton and Lin to the first post and let folks comment again ?

 

2. Stop this one and restart with a new set ?

 

3. Your thought on what to do ?

[Marblehead]

I have both Watson's and Lin's translations on my computer, but not Eno's.

 

I will remain open regarding suggestions as to how we can make this study more valuable.

[Stosh]

My thought is to let Mh do whatever he wants to do, not to suggest he needs to restructure. If he likes lin , doing Lin seems like the thing to do. I want things very very explicit , thats just me. Like I described ,I think its badly badly!needed, generally speaking to just lay out there line by line if needs be , the MEANINGs of the parts by whatever factions want to express them. Then one is really comparing the essence of the texts and makes it possible to find common ground., or at least understand what it is that others are valuing. Repeatedly various translators try to stick to the original structures ,ironic presentations ,mysterious allusions and basically keep the works highly confusing. Thats perfectly fine ! to maintain the esoteric integrity of them , to preserve the nuance for the few who can read it so written. Thats all good stuff. But should you show these things to just the layperson it looks like gibberish. I cant say nobody is on the same page,, but nobody seems to be on the same page ,, at all. If I wrote it unsupervised unedited un-kibbitzed it would nothing like yours or Mhs or Fhs .

Everyone isolated without common basis, even if youve got a great insight I cant relate to it because nothing! is aligned.

[Marblehead]

Comments acknowledged Stosh.

 

Taoist Texts has had  questions similar to yours.

 

Perhaps we can find a good way to expand the study.

 

I will await further suggestions.

[Stosh]

Line by line negotiations

[dawei]

My memory fails but I think that someone put forth the suggestion to do Mairs and enough agreed and MB simply volunteered to help in doing the chapters.

 

re: Line by Line negotiations.

 

I think it would be much easier to do that for LZ simply due to length of the text... and one challenge is that one has to read a line within a larger context of the section, and preceding sections at times.

 

Lin is incomplete so we would have to use another and Lin could be supplemented. 

 

Having said this, I'm open to trying a line by line.   It could take quite a long time to get through it but why not.

 

My gut feeling is, if we did line by line, we start over with a new translator (or two).

 

 

Added:  But we still may not get agreement on line by line and might be arguing more too

[Marblehead]

For the record:

 

I doubt "line by line" would work with Chuang Tzu because here the concepts are of the prime importance and it is necessary to consider the entire section in order to see the concept in its completeness.

 

However, yes, within each section of the chapters we could do a "line by line" in order to clarify the concept.

[Stosh]

My thing is just that on a smaller scale, meaning is attributed not verbatim translation. Off the cuff Im tossing out that you pick someones work, accessible freely like terabess, skip copying anything unless you want to , just define the chunk being examined so anyone can look at it in context.

Then just give your impression regarding the immediate passage , in such a way that a reader could compare your read against the wording presented, just what you think the salient point is or are.

If you want, allow direct disagreement,, or just allow competing statements to stand unopposed. When you as moderator feels its been done ,three four responses, or some "pass" decisions. just move along. But,

Im just being specific for clarity, whatever way you like to do it would be fine. Its not my thread , my attention is sporadic and brief , and I have no idea how well this would work since Ive not seen it done.

[Marblehead]

That's the point Stosh.  I have not seen a translation that has done a section (concept) by section analysis of the Chuang Tzu.  Mair made some good notes and I have included those in the sections highlighted in bold/italics.

 

I understand your wish for clarity of the individual sentences and agree that this would help in better understanding the concepts.

 

I will wait a little longer before making any decisions.  I need to make sure that whatever I agree to is doable by me.

 

I am pretty convinced I should continue with the process we currently have with Mair but I need to find a good way to supplement the sections for better clarity and understanding.

 

I have removed Giles, Legge, and Eno from consideration.  That leaves the  Watson, Yutang and  Nina Correa translations for supplemental support.

 

Whatever decisions are made I would want to go back to Section 1, Chapter 1 with whatever process is to be used so that the entire study is the same.

 

Further input from anyone is welcome so that I can make a better decision.