Horse Stance - Pelvis Tucked In

[Orgasmic19]

Horse Stance - Pelvis Tucked In?

 

I have been trying to learn the horse stance in chi gong. I was told by a certified training to keep my back and sacrum straight as possible.

 

He said to tighten the glutes and tuck your tailbone between your legs.

 

Could some one clarify or give me some help because I am still confused on what he is talking about? Is there a picture I can look at?

[Starjumper]

Back up to a wall and press your belt into the wall, you will probably need to bend your knees to do this.  Stand in this position.  This, of course, is assuming someone is wearing their belt around their waist and not their thighs.

 

I shouldn't give away these 'secrets', it appears that some 'certified' trainers can't talk their way out of a cardboard box.  =)    Maybe it's best to keep them that way.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Starjumper

[Miffymog]

Yep, standing up against a wall is a good way to straighten out the back and curves the sacrum in. I've got a slipped disc and if I straighten it out too much it aggravates my sciatica so I have to leave a slight curve.

 

The curve, or lack of is something that I vary and experiment with. If I've been holding my arms in second position for a while and then drop my arms down to my side my back naturally curves a bit more. I'm not entirely sure why but I think its because the back muscles have had to work slightly while holding my arms up. So when I lower them and there's less strain on my back, it seems to want to curve in the other direction for 10 to 20 seconds just to stretch itself off.

[Starjumper]

It's true, holding your arms out requires your back muscles to work harder.  Actually that posture is used for fighting and taking force from ahead, the idea that it's required for cultivating energy is fundamentalism.  I did it so much that it messed up my posture so my teacher had me stand with butt out to correct it, notice how weight lifters stick their butt out for weight lifting and think about which way gravity is pressing on you.  You can stand either way in horse stance and it doesn't make a shred of difference either as a method of cultivating chi power or a way of meditation.

 

This posture is an example of how superstition gets entrenched into a system and how teachers like to make things 'different' in order to feel like they are teaching something, something useful only for absorbing force from ahead or exerting force towards the front, not for cultivating energy or meditation.  If I missed something do let me know.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Starjumper

[Mig]

In some martial arts, horse stance varies. In my experience, you sit on horse stance, feet parallel and lower your stance so your knees are aligned to your feet then tuck in, back straight, fist on chamber . The stance shouldn't be too low nor too high, just in the middle until you feel your legs after five minutes or so. The idea is to remain on horse stance for at least half an hour to an hour.

 

HTH

[Mudfoot]

Or an example of when a teacher tries to sell a practice relevant for martial arts as a practice for the purpose of (fill in blank).

[Gerard]

Correct advice:

 

Link

 

 

Practice to strenghten the dang (inner arch of the legs):

 

 

Link

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Do you have any goal while practicing this position? In qi gong all movements and positions are done for some reason. For example the tree allows to accumulate post heaven qi (if done correctly), some movements harmonize, some activate qi circulation etc. If you do smth just to look for what happens, then the result might be unpredictable.

Look at this from the point that you try to do smth unknown for you with YOUR body.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Miffymog]

Correct advice:

Link

Practice to strenghten the dang (inner arch of the legs):

Link

 

Nice links. These stances are far, far lower than I go though. I only just unbend my legs, this is in part due to my having slightly dodgy knees but mainly because I'm teaching myself and I don't want to risk injury.

 

 

It's true, holding your arms out requires your back muscles to work harder.  Actually that posture is used for fighting and taking force from ahead, the idea that it's required for cultivating energy is fundamentalism.  I did it so much that it messed up my posture so my teacher had me stand with butt out to correct it, notice how weight lifters stick their butt out for weight lifting and think about which way gravity is pressing on you.  You can stand either way in horse stance and it doesn't make a shred of difference either as a method of cultivating chi power or a way of meditation.

 

This posture is an example of how superstition gets entrenched into a system and how teachers like to make things 'different' in order to feel like they are teaching something, something useful only for absorbing force from ahead or exerting force towards the front, not for cultivating energy or meditation.  If I missed something do let me know.

 

Hmmm, interesting. I've been playing with the height of my arms for some time now, holding them between either 3rd position (holding the stomach) or in 2nd position (holding the balloon). I basically want to push myself a little bit, but not experience too much pain as I don't want to detract from the enjoyment of the practice.

 

Anyway, in the last month or two, when I started in 3rd position, I would find that very slowly the arms were raising by themselves in to 2nd. It was so slow that I wouldn't actually feel or notice them doing it, I'd just look down at my arms halfway through the stand and notice that they had raised. This is why I now start off the stand with them in low 2nd position and let them do what they like as it goes on.

 

Also, my stands are roughly 3 minutes in 3rd position, 15 minutes in 2nd, then 2 minutes in 1st position (arms by the side). So I'm not really putting myself under too much strain if I'm not doing something quite right.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Miffymog

[Michael Sternbach]

As the erect spine normally has something like an 'S' shape, to truly straighten it actually means to slightly round the back, "hollow" the chest and roll the pelvis forward, while keeping the neck straight. When standing in a horse stance, you also want to push your knees outward. Your weight should be centered on yongquan (Kidney 1) on both soles.

 

This is how I was taught to do stances in Taiji, and as it made sense to me, I transferred it to my martial arts practice in general.

 

I recommend that before starting your exercise, you focus on all the involved parts of your body one by one, starting with the feet. See what each adjustment does to your weight distribution overall. You will end up in a relaxed and well balanced state, greatly facilitating your subsequent qigong exercise.

[thelerner]

Do you have any goal while practicing this position? In qi gong all movements and positions are done for some reason. For example the tree allows to accumulate post heaven qi (if done correctly), some movements harmonize, some activate qi circulation etc. If you do smth just to look for what happens, then the result might be unpredictable.

Look at this from the point that you try to do smth unknown for you with YOUR body.

Rgrds, Ilya

The martial arts tradition may be different then qi gongs.  The horse stance (in Shotokan Karate) was all about building strength of body and mind.  No fancy philosophy, only the repeated saying 'You're only as strong as your horse, keep going..".  Good sweaty times, they were.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Horse stance comes in varieties as do their use and benefit so i'll throw in some general advice from,y experience.

 

There is Horse Rider where you stand reasonably high, feet about shoulder width apart. Immagine you're about to sit on a high barstool, your pelvis will tilt and the small of your back steaightens out a little.

 

Goat Rider is when you squeeze your knees inward, as if you were sitting on a skinny billygoat, hanging on for your life

 

Double Horse is lower, feet are wider apart than your shoulder but not much, and your knees should be bent just under 90 degrees. Never go full 90 degrees, that will put the stress on your weak part (joints, fascia etc) and not strengthen the bits that make the exercise easier with time.

Feet must be parallel and knees should never be over and ahead of your toes, that will spell pain and trouble also.

A good way to practice this is to stand your toes toward a wall and bend the knees. When they touch the wall you're maxed out.

You wont get very low at first, increase the bend in knees ocer time as well as the time spent standing.

 

This exercise doesnt have to be a neverending horror, when you figure it out and learn to relax it's quite nice to do it.

 

The trick is to build enough strength to be able to find how your bones and tendons help you hold this stance if you relax and breathe.

 

The important part with all horse stance isnt to straighten your back as much as:

Don stick you ass out. If you look like you're about to start bootyshaking you're doing it wrong.

This encompasses not leaning your head forward also. You should look like someone stole your chair and your stance is so awesome you didnt even notice.

[Starjumper]

I've been playing with the height of my arms for some time now, holding them between either 3rd position (holding the stomach) or in 2nd position (holding the balloon). I basically want to push myself a little bit, but not experience too much pain as I don't want to detract from the enjoyment of the practice.

 

Anyway, in the last month or two, when I started in 3rd position, I would find that very slowly the arms were raising by themselves in to 2nd. It was so slow that I wouldn't actually feel or notice them doing it, I'd just look down at my arms halfway through the stand and notice that they had raised. This is why I now start off the stand with them in low 2nd position and let them do what they like as it goes on.

 

Also, my stands are roughly 3 minutes in 3rd position, 15 minutes in 2nd, then 2 minutes in 1st position (arms by the side). So I'm not really putting myself under too much strain if I'm not doing something quite right.

 

 

I'm sorry I don't know this type of naming of positions number one two and three are, in my system there are ten thousand techniques and they include those, whatever they are, plus everything in between, which could be described as holding the ball in hundreds of different ways.  If your arms raise up it could be due to energy increasing or it could simply be an inherent posture habit.

 

Concerning experiencing pain, I think for cultivating chi power and strength that some pain is needed in the beginning, but not too much.  What you can do is bend your knees more and sink down into a stance which starts to make your thighs hurt a fair amount in a couple of minutes, then raise up in order to ease off and let the pain subside, then sink down again to a more painful level for a couple of minutes, and so on.  It's good to push it a little in the beginning and assume a steady posture low enough to cause some discomfort.

 

This does several things.  The working muscles generate energy which goes into your body, which is what helps cultivate chi power, and it's a most or the most effective way of cultivating chi power (compared, for example, to sitting around with finger in nose, visualizing things).  The pain is a type of stress, so the work to relax as much as possible in spite of the pain and stress is an important aspect of the practice which automatically teaches you to relax emotionally in the face of emotional stress.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Right on the nail Starjumper!

 

in your last paragraph i was zapped by "the face of emotional stress".

I know i'm veering off a littlebut the face plays a role in standing and horse especially. I've done snd seenit done:

Contorsion of the face starts to appear when discomfort is near unbearable, especially in the opinion of the emotional stress. Making strained faces reinforces it. Thats my theory at least. Starting to use the face to express the overload leads to a tense chest and there goes the breathing bit.

 

What you guys think?

[[email protected]]

The martial arts tradition may be different then qi gongs. The horse stance (in Shotokan Karate) was all about building strength of body and mind. No fancy philosophy, only the repeated saying 'You're only as strong as your horse, keep going..". Good sweaty times, they were.

I was going in Shotokan for two years and can say that this system stimulates muscle work at least at the beginning. As well as the horse stance. If saying about martial aspect this position seems to my unpractical. Only if you have any specific target - f.e. train your legs and its specific connections with the torso. That is why I asked orgasmic for the reason.

But as we are in the Taoist thread here, I supposed that it is closer to qi gong than to karate, that is the reason of examples I posted I previous message.

Again, my opinion is that every technic should be based on the target one has.

Rgrds, Ilya

[thelerner]

This is also slightly off topic, but in sitting meditation, after a while of sitting my back would 'slump', not be as straight.  Keeping the same feeling of 'pelvis tucked forward' makes my posture while seated better.  So, its not just for standing. 

[[email protected]]

There is also a question of balance between pelvis moved slightly forward and absence of tension in the belly zone. If you move a pelvis deeper this will stimulate muscles of a belly zone to hold this position in order to keep pelvis fixed. So this aspect (balance) should be kept in mind regardless of the concrete stance.

Thus from my point of view its better to practice with the instructor who can correct the mistakes (and some of them are not obvious!) then to try stances based on advice even if they seem worth doing.

Rgrds, Ilya

[gendao]

Quote

When legs shake 7 to 8 times per second this resonates with Earth’s Schumann Resonance as free electrons

 

Then at extreme sympathetic nervous system “shaking” (either in full lotus with legs numb or horse stance with thighs parallel to ground) there is the extreme parasympathetic rebound that triggers the internal vagus nerve orgasmic kundalini emission (not sympathetic ejaculation) of fluid into the brain.)

 

So ideally a person could stand with the thighs parallel to the ground, without any shaking, and this would mean the yin qi is filled up in the lower tan tien - and the parasympathetic nervous system is storing up the qi energy. The yin heel channels have been filled up!

 

Yin Heel Vessel leads to the “Ocean of Yin Qi” below the navel

That is the first stage of the training and most never reach it. You would be able to stand for two hours nonstop without any shaking with the thighs parallel to the ground! This is the training the original qigong master did at Shaolin - every day like that for three months.

 

After Yin Heel qi is filled up then 2 hrs nonstop every day like this for 3 months!

 

This is why the qigong training completely relies on the emotional energy as the sympathetic nervous system is activated by lust, by anger, by fear, by sadness and worry - the lower emotions, each for a different organ. Anger is liver, lust is reproductive, fear is kidney, sadness is lung and worry is pancreas. It is through the parasympathetic nervous system that a hyperpotential is built up.

 

So I was asked recently - do you need to be able to sit in full lotus to meditate? I said no but if you are meditating properly then you will be able to sit in full lotus. So sitting in full lotus shows that you are able to meditate properly. As Taoist master Wang Liping teaches only the full lotus is able to open up the nerve channels in the lower back to really sublimate the jing energy properly. Taoist Alchemy teaches us that the left leg should be on top as again due to the secrets of Taoism, the difference between the yin lower body and yang upper body, this left leg on top opens up the channels to store up the qi energy.

 

I explained to my family member asking me about full lotus - the key is that it stretches open the lower back. Or as Gurdjieff said: modern humans, Western civilization, is controlled by the Kundabuffer - the blockage of the lower back. Or as Taoist alchemy teaches - the Yuan Qi originates between the kidneys and how to activate it? Again through visualizing the shen below the jing or the fire below the water - to then boil the water into steam which is then qi energy. When the qi energy builds up through meditation you can then sit in full lotus. A real qigong master can then sit in full lotus for as long as needed in ease. So we can trace the Bronze Age alchemy of “fire under water” to create steam as qi in the lower tan tien - all the way back to the Bushmen, the original human culture doing trance dance alchemy from before human language had evolved!!

So from one respect, mabu might serve to help empty out the "Kundabuffer" (lower emotional trauma typically stored in our cores, especially prevalent in WEIRD culture)...similar to David Berceli's TRE (Tension & Trauma Release Exercise).  This would be a FUNDAMENTAL step before further advancement!