Trumpcare

[Gerry]

You struggle with the concept of individual sovereignty? Try looking the words up individuallyseparately and then stick them together, OK?

 

You tell me, Gerry. It is painfully clear but I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth...

 

Neither of those (AMTRAK & PBS) is a power granted to the central government, Gerry. Need me to provide that list again?

This does not exist.  It will not exist in our age, or under this government.  It is in the same basket as "individual privacy".  Perhaps you yearn to be the Jeremiah Johnson of the 21st century.  Yeah, I think that is a self -deluded principle to hang your hat.  If it floats your boat, them wave that flag ...

 

Wave that flag, pop the bag, skin the goat, learn to cope

Bell the rat, trap the cat, ball the jack, chew the fat

Read the signs, connect the lines, pay your fines, save your dimes

Pick up time, light the fuse, making time, pass the juice

Wave that flag wide and high.

[Gerry]

You have said you reject it on the matter of healthcare. Universal healthcare in the US "by any means necessary." Now you are trying to say that you really didn't mean any means but you've made it clear that corruption and coercion are things you find perfectly acceptable if it accomplishes your objective -- "the ends justify the means"?

 

I've already told you that the proper (legal & ethical) approach is to submit a constitutional amendment for ratification, whereby 34 of the fifty States (a 2/3rds majority) approve extending to the central government the power to manage healthcare. Short of that, the voters of the individual States may choose to (typically by amending their own Constitutions) authorize their State governments to manage healthcare within those boundaries. You OK with that?

No I did not.  Really Brian just eat shit on this.  Say it again, and again, and again,...

 

 

you've made it clear that corruption and coercion are things you find perfectly acceptable if it accomplishes your objective -- "the ends justify the means"?

Yup.  The way things are being done today, yesterday, and tomorrow.  It is all about using the system to gain your ends.  Tell me that is not the political world we both live in.

[Gerry]

Are you a vet in the VA system?  Do you receive medicaid services?  Oh BTW, my brother does and the dystopian conclusions you would like a reader to take away is not his experience.

 

Are there more issues in the American HC system than payment and cost considerations.  Yes.

 

 

Gerry said on 3/8 and that seems like forever-ago

 

From my reading into this, I know that some merger of the two approaches could be developed to work here. I do not expect the American GDP costs to drop as low as in these countries.  There are issues of Education debt, malpractice policies, and doctor compensation to be resolved.  Also because of defensive medicine America's use of high-end digital scanning would need to be addressed.

 

There are lots of issues that need to be addressed.  Rural access is deplorable.   Rural hospital is almost an oxymoron.  We do not use trained non-doctor resources to improve access to services. Nurse practitioners is one example.  We need tort reform so as to eliminate the need for malpractice coverage. With this we might see less of digital technologies as a prophylactic and as defensive medicine.  Doctors need to be paid less.  We need fewer high paid specialist and more pediatric and family care physicians.  We need to drive more medical decision with meag-data.

 

OK. I'm ready! Slap me with your "individual sovereignty" stick.

[Brian]

No I did not. Really Brian just eat shit on this. Say it again, and again, and again,...

 

Yup. The way things are being done today, yesterday, and tomorrow. It is all about using the system to gain your ends. Tell me that is not the political world we both live in.

"Eat shit," Gerry?

 

Prince of a guy.

[Gerry]

"Eat shit," Gerry?

 

Prince of a guy.

I usually add ".. and die!"   This was my sweeter kinder self speaking.

 

ok. call me a turd for that, I deserve it.

[Gerry]

"Eat shit," Gerry?

 

Prince of a guy.

I've lost two post from a browser brain freeze.  both would have been better in the original..

 

Yeah <sigh> you got me here.  My usual ends with   "... and die!"  I get real touchy when I believe words I have not said are used to oppugn my actual words.

 

So.... Sorry for that.

 

edited update:  I can see my earlier version of this message  now.  I wish the second, and longer posthad made it past the bridge freeze.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Gerry

[ralis]

The Standford Prison Experiment clearly demonstrates that the myth of the sovereign citizen will not be found in any social structure in which social interactions/structures are determined by the most powerful bullies.

 

 

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/has-america-become-stanford-prison-experiment

 

 

Guards became increasingly abusive and cruel toward “prisoners.” The prisoners responded first by resisting and then by succumbing to despair and a sense of learned helplessness. Although the experiment was originally planned for two weeks, Zimbardo stopped his experiment after six days. The lesson had been learned: When the correct group dynamics are present — and a set of rules legitimate the behavior — otherwise “normal” and “good” individuals will abuse and bully other human beings.

In the almost five decades since Zimbardo conducted what is now known as the Stanford Prison Experiment, there has been an increase in the coarseness and meanness of America’s popular culture. What has been described as a “culture of cruelty” is the new normal and surveillance is omnipresent. Political polarization and dysfunction have broken the standing norms and rules of good governance in Washington, trust in political and social institutions such as the news media has declined, authoritarianism has increased among conservatives, the social safety net has been torn apart and the nation’s police continue to abuse and kill black and brown Americans with near impunity.

 

 

This is “social dominance behavior” filtered through racism and the neoliberal economic order. The sum total of these (and other) factors has resulted in the election of the neofascist Donald Trump as president of the United States. In many ways, Trump’s election was a decision by millions of American voters to punish their fellow citizens. These people were encouraged and enabled in this desire to do harm by their leaders in the right-wing media and by Trump himself.

Edited April 11, 2017 by ralis

[Gerry]

Ralis,

 

Humans are nothing but xenophobic anal retentive monkeys. The xenophobic thing is at a genetic level, and served us well over the eons.

 

What is the value of humanity? 

 

Pick up a hand full of sand and explain the sand's meaning, value, and goals.  That is all that humans are, 7 Billion plus meaningless, valueless, purposeless individual grains.  The difference is humans tell themselves lies about their meaning, they project values where there are none, and any semblance of decency is just the mythology of humanity as told by the creator, humanity.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[Gerry]

This is the second rewrite, and the second attempt to post it. 

 

On the level of philosophical discourse, I get (mostly) what Brian means by "individual sovereignty". As to what it exactly means to him, I am not as clear. In this world, our modern market place, I do not believe "individual sovereignty" can exist.

 

The main reason for this forum, the daobums, is to talk about "individual sovereignty" along terms different from the cesspool that is modern politics. Place that umbrella over not just America and its Constitutional foundations, but international political chaos as well.

 

As a species, when we still sat around our tribal fire, and global politics implied going over the mountain pass to trade stone tools for deer and bear pelts, "individual sovereignty" had a meaning I might understand and embrace. For me, I take from the same fire pit a sense of community where loss and gain is to be shared equitably. [Do not read equal, read fairly.] I have a romantic's affection for Brian's "individual sovereignty" in whatever format he intends it. I may be pissing on his boots, not in his beer, but at some level, I accept his counsel on this.

 

So turning to my review of our PM. I have said the following...  I will post some quotes and comments after I finally post this!

[blackstar212]

I equate "individual sovereignty" as the form of sociopathy I have mentioned before. We are societal animals but we have those in our population that cannot function that way. They must put themselves first above society. 

[MooNiNite]

People that want universal healthcare don't realize the cattle that they are. 

[dust]

People that want universal healthcare don't realize the cattle that they are. 

 

Let me explain the graph below: the USA spends more per capita than any other country on healthcare, yet has one of the lowest life expectancies among the world's richest nations.

 

The majority of the nations in that large bubble, such as Italy, Japan, Switzerland, the UK, Sweden, and Spain, have universal healthcare. Not all run by the government, but all universal.

 

We spend less and live longer. Cattle? Or smarter than you guys?

 

 

 

[Gerry]

People that want universal healthcare don't realize the cattle that they are. 

The supporters of what ever the "f" the current land lords want, do not realize they are the sheep herded into their pens by the deconstructionists sheep-dogs.

[MooNiNite]

Let me explain the graph below: the USA spends more per capita than any other country on healthcare, yet has one of the lowest life expectancies among the world's richest nations.

 

The majority of the nations in that large bubble, such as Italy, Japan, Switzerland, the UK, Sweden, and Spain, have universal healthcare. Not all run by the government, but all universal.

 

We spend less and live longer. Cattle? Or smarter than you guys?

 

 

Lol. That is because healthcare and pharmaceuticals have become a monopoly. Corporations have corrupted our democracy. Look at graphs in the 1950s back when we had the highest standard of living in the world. 

[Gerry]

I equate "individual sovereignty" as the form of sociopathy I have mentioned before. We are societal animals but we have those in our population that cannot function that way. They must put themselves first above society. 

Nothing wrong with putting your self first if that is what you believe is the correct course.  The notion that the individual should be in control of their action is not sociopathy.  The desire to not be compelled to act as you want but as I want is a legitimate goal.

 

I have read E. O. Wilson and endorse the claim that we are eusocial beings.  But Wilson makes it clear that does not equate to one mind that all shall follow.  Within our social, eusocial, interests there are competitive sub-grouping that do show self interest and competitive interests that one might say was anti-eusocial, but that would be a misunderstanding of our specie's drives.

 

You should read Wilson's recent book, The Meaning of Human Existence, before you make such a pejorative argument.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Gerry

[blackstar212]

I will check out the book.

[Gerry]

I will check out the book.

Brian is no sociopath.  He is frustratingly a strict constitutional guy.  He may believe that even in this era of zero personal privacy, he can cling to a notion that one can have personal freedom from the whims of others.  I think I said I have a romantics hope that he has a point. 

 

In the movie 1776, and I do not know if it is a factual quote, when Franklin is informed he is an Englishman.  He responds with [and this is a paraphrase]  "Much like the Ox I am honored by the claim, but I would much rather have restored to me what is rightfully mine." To me this is Brian, wishing for that which is rightfully his.

 

Now as to my desire to see UHC, and Brian's dismay at the same, I see these exchanges as sport where the shadows tell me more than the words.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[Gerry]

I will check out the book.

The cliff notes version of the book is a PBS show/video on E.O.Wilson.  It covers the essence of the book, and you have the pleasure of being introduced to this man.  As a child he was blinded in one eye, and in many ways this limited his ability to advance in some areas of Science.  As a result he became and etymologist where one eye plus a hand held microscope gave him perfect insight into the natural world.

 

If he had only explored his ants and their eusocial societies, he would be a giant in the Natural world.  But he is so much more than that.

 

I bought this video for my 13 year old grandson with the hopes that he will be inspired by a natural genius and by the nature of Nature.

 

 

added note: If you see the video, Wilson is reading from the publisher draft of the book.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[Gerry]

The majority of the nations in that large bubble, such as Italy, Japan, Switzerland, the UK, Sweden, and Spain, have universal healthcare. Not all run by the government, but all universal.

 

We spend less and live longer. Cattle? Or smarter than you guys?

 

 

 

 

So true.  Government DOES NOT administer the UHC systems in any direct sense.  They are administered, for the most part, by private non-profit health insurance companies.

 

Do you live in one of these nations?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[dust]

Lol. That is because healthcare and pharmaceuticals have become a monopoly. Corporations have corrupted our democracy. Look at graphs in the 1950s back when we had the highest standard of living in the world. 

 

Well, I don't know about "standard of living", and that's not really what we're talking about. Sure, in theory a country can have a high standard of living even with a poor health system, if everyone has access to clean water, food, good housing, etc, and takes care of themselves.

 

But I'm looking at life expectancy, and it seems that the USA has never actually been the world leader in that category. You've always been relatively high, but never number 1.

 

And with increased healthcare quality (among other things) worldwide over the last century, everyone's living longer... but the USA seems to have been left behind a little compared to the nations it has traditionally been in competition with (Europe, Canada). Some places are quickly outstripping you. You can't put that all down to 'Big Pharma'.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by dust

[Brian]

Ummm...

 

The debate over American healthcare isn't about life expectancy.

 

The debate is over the funding model, and more fundamentally over the question of who decides which people get what care -- in essence, who controls the healthcare delivery system and, by extension, who controls the people.

[Gerry]

Ummm...

 

The debate over American healthcare isn't about life expectancy.

 

The debate is over the funding model, and more fundamentally over the question of who decides which people get what care -- in essence, who controls the healthcare delivery system and, by extension, who controls the people.

Funding model is the fight in the public square. What it should be about also, perhaps of first concern, is how to allocate resources [$$$] so as to more efficiently and equitably distribute HC to all of our citizens.  I am horrified by "let the corporations run the system and control our lives".  That is what it was prior to the ACA, and in reality even under the ACA.

 

Added note: Not just life expectancy, but perhaps a score of other HC indicators where America's high expenditures produce lagging, or plain embarrassing, HC results.  If it were just life expectancy, there are days when I think we should lower it.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Gerry

[Brian]

Ah, yes. Efficiency.

 

Washington is famous for its efficiency.

 

EDIT​: The debate isn't about efficiency, either. It is about wielding control. The "efficiency" issue will arise later, without debate, when the central government starts deciding who gets which treatment.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Brian

[blackstar212]

Everyone gets treatment hence the universal part. there is no question.

[Brian]

Everyone gets treatment hence the universal part. there is no question.

Too bad you didn't bother to follow those links I provided you earlier about public healthcare services currently being provided across the State of Ohio. You might have learned something...