Trumpcare

[ralis]

What we need is a medical/health care system that takes care of all. Basing this system on a neoliberal ideology of competition is a moot point and will never serve all persons equally. Physicians don't need to make 500k to millions a year, which makes money the priority, as opposed to upholding the Hippocratic Oath and serving those in need. Train physicians to practice real medicine, not pharmaceutical pill pushing. Opioids and anti-biotics are the worst forms of medical abuse. Also, stop the pharmaceutical ads for drugs every five minutes on TV! Self diagnosis only presents more problems.

[Brian]

How much do physicians need to make?

[ralis]

How much do physicians need to make?

 

 

I know what you are thinking and money does not equal competence. 

[Brian]

I know what you are thinking and money does not equal competence.

Not what I was thinking at all, actually, although there are some reasonable correlations which might be explored. Instead, I was wondering who decides what someone else needs, how those decisions are reached, from whence such authority originates, and were this ends?

 

So, let's start with:

"How much does a physician need to make?"

[Trunk]

The only explanation for why healthcare is so incredibly expensive in the USA is lack of competition in the marketplace. 

 

 

Thanks for the graph!  All 4 of the countries listed have health care majorly publicly funded (with some mix of public and private funding).  That is, *NONE* of them have free-market health care.  So, your comment is disproved by your own graph! 

 

Health care in Germany

Germany has a universal multi-payer health care system with two main types of health insurance: "Statutory Health Insurance" (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) known as sickness funds (Krankenkassen) and "Private Health Insurance" (Private Krankenversicherung).

 

Health care in the United Kingdom

Healthcare in the United Kingdom is a devolved matter, with England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each having their own systems of publicly funded healthcare, funded by and accountable to separate governments and parliaments, together with smaller private sector and voluntary provision.

 

Health care in Sweden

The Swedish health care system is mainly government-funded and decentralized, although private health care also exists. The health care system in Sweden is financed primarily through taxes levied by county councils and municipalities.

 

Health care in Spain

The Spanish health care system is considered one of the best in the world, in 7th position in the ranking elaborated by the World Health Organization. ... In Spain, 73% of health spending was funded by public sources in 2011,

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trunk

[Brian]

Thanks for the graph! All 4 of the countries listed have health care majorly publicly funded (with some mix of public and private funding). That is, *NONE* of them have free-market health care. So, your comment is disproved by your own graph!

 

Health care in Germany

Germany has a universal multi-payer health care system with two main types of health insurance: "Statutory Health Insurance" (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) known as sickness funds (Krankenkassen) and "Private Health Insurance" (Private Krankenversicherung).

 

Health care in the United Kingdom

Healthcare in the United Kingdom is a devolved matter, with England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each having their own systems of publicly funded healthcare, funded by and accountable to separate governments and parliaments, together with smaller private sector and voluntary provision.

 

Health care in Sweden

The Swedish health care system is mainly government-funded and decentralized, although private health care also exists. The health care system in Sweden is financed primarily through taxes levied by county councils and municipalities.

 

Health care in Spain

The Spanish health care system is considered one of the best in the world, in 7th position in the ranking elaborated by the World Health Organization. ... In Spain, 73% of health spending was funded by public sources in 2011,

Out of curiosity, how much of US health spending do you think is funded by public sources?

[ralis]

Out of curiosity, how much of US health spending do you think is funded by public sources?

 

 

I know your neoliberal ideology is against using public money for the needs of all, but that smacks of Social Darwinism, especially, where the poor are concerned. Just let the fittest survive and all is well. Vast amounts of money cures all ills. Is that your belief?

[Brian]

I know your neoliberal ideology is against using public money for the needs of all, but that smacks of Social Darwinism, especially, where the poor are concerned. Just let the fittest survive and all is well. Vast amounts of money cures all ills. Is that your belief?

Nope, not at all. In fact, I help support several of charities (and do lots of direct giving) with my time and resources on top of paying my taxes.

 

A simple question, ralis (although not addressed at you, you chose to try to capitalize on it for a thinly veiled personal attack so perhaps you'll actually answer the question) -- what percent of the US health spending do you think is funded by public sources? As a follow-up question, what portion of the US healthcare system do you think currently operates according to free-market principles?

[blackstar212]

Nope, not at all. In fact, I help support several of charities (and do lots of direct giving) with my time and resources on top of paying my taxes.

 

A simple question, ralis (although not addressed at you, you chose to try to capitalize on it for a thinly veiled personal attack so perhaps you'll actually answer the question) -- what percent of the US health spending do you think is funded by public sources? As a follow-up question, what portion of the US healthcare system do you think currently operates according to free-market principles?

Then you should have no problem with a universal healthcare system. The USA's is horrid.

[Trunk]

-- what percent of the US health spending do you think is funded by public sources? As a follow-up question, what portion of the US healthcare system do you think currently operates according to free-market principles?

I try to avoid assuming, especially in areas in which I'm not an expert. ... but ... I bet our current system is complex, and I bet that any good solution is likely to be complex, I bet the over-all scene of health care is complex, has many issues that could use improvement by detailed unbiased long term study. I am, in general, suspicious of simplicities-shouted-loudly.

[ralis]

What about full scholarships to all qualified pre-med students and if the medical school entrance exam is passed, then a full scholarship is given. That way there is no debt to be contended with after medical school and residency. The same offer should be given to all nursing students.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ralis

[Brian]

Then you should have no problem with a universal healthcare system. The USA's is horrid.

That's a non sequitur.

 

1) The US healthcare system gets worse and worse as it moves towards being "a universal healthcare system" -- just as the US education system gets worse and worse as it moves towards being a centrally managed system and just as the US food production system gets worse and worse as it moves towards being a centrally managed system. Notice the pattern there?

 

2) The argument that the current problems with the US healthcare system are somehow an indictment of "capitalism" is hollow at best and generally fraudulent because no one on this forum (and almost no one alive) remembers when the US healthcare system operated according to free-market principles. Corporatism and increasingly invasive manipulation by an ever-increasingly powerful central government can hardly be described as bearing any resemblance to free trade.

 

3) Healthcare cannot be a right. (We can have that discussion any time you have the stomach for it.)

 

4) The US Constitution doesn't authorize the Federal government to control or manage or provide healthcare with the possible exception of care for veterans of the US military. Once the Federal government has a handle on providing healthcare to veterans, come back and make a case for amending the Constitution.

 

 

Now... Would you like to try answering these extremely simple questions I've put forth or just wanna continue making nonsensical & emotionally based commentary?

[cold]

I'm old enough to remember Doctors doing house calls.

As our systems get more complex, unintended consequences result. Antibiotics  use in animal agriculture for instance, effects ripple out beyond the intended consequence.

 

The cost of 12 education (post grade12) in general not just medical school is out of balance.

At the rate we are going, if we judge society based upon how we treat our weakest, we will fail dismally.

There exists great wisdom in the old ways...

[Trunk]

p.s.

I would say that, if the graph that was posted is correct, that we have something to learn from the health care systems of other countries.

 

P.p.s.

Also, I'm (only a little) surprised that no one commented on the video of Wendell Potter. I mean, here is a guy who was working in the health care industry for 20 years and a VP of Cigna. (Probably no one even watched the video.)

 

As I said before, I try not to assume I know everything in a field where I don't. So much to learn. I highly doubt that any of you here have as much experience or study in the area as Wendell Potter? ... or are some of you former VP health care executives and have been humbly hiding your credentials, experience?

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trunk

[ralis]

3) Healthcare cannot be a right. (We can have that discussion any time you have the stomach for it.)

 

 

 

Therefor, only the wealthy or who can afford it have access? What about the poor and those in dire circumstances? Your statement is just more Social Darwinism in which the weak will be left to die while persons of means such as yourself thrive. We survive as a group and not as disconnected individuals in some mythical vacuum.

 

See EO Wilson's work on biodiversity and biological altruism.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ralis

[Brian]

I try to avoid assuming, especially in areas in which I'm not an expert. ... but ... I bet our current system is complex, and I bet that any good solution is likely to be complex, I bet the over-all scene of health care is complex, has many issues that could use improvement by detailed unbiased long term study. I am, in general, suspicious of simplicities-shouted-loudly.

As of 2013, according to a study by the Journal of American Public Health, public funding accounted for 63.4% of US healthcare. That's more than Canada or the UK or Sweden and it was up 4.5% from the previous study in 1999. Note that this is before the implementation of Obamacare was really implemented, extending subsidies and expanding the Medicaid roles. That's not even including the massive expansion of SSI disability in the last few years, which has gone largely unreported. The idea that the solution to current US healthcare problems involves accelerating the current pace is as ludicrous as suggesting the way to fix the US education system is to accelerate the takeover of the system by the central government which has "managed" the decline of that system for the last 40 years.

[liminal_luke]

Just throwing this out...

 

Some say health care works best when allowed to work according to the free market with minimal (or no) government involvment; others say the government needs to preside over a program of "universal health care." Personally, I`m undecided.

 

I think it would be informative if Bums advocating for one position or the other would throw out examples from other countries that follow their proposed system with success.

 

Free-market advocates: Is there a country you can point to that follows a free-market health care system with success?  In what sense is it sucessful?

 

Government-program health advocates: Is there a country with a health care system overseen by a government that you can point that succeeds?  In what sense is it successful? 

[Brian]

Therefor, only the wealthy or who can afford it have access? What about the poor and those in dire circumstances? Your statement is just more Social Darwinism in which the weak will be left to die while persons of means such as yourself thrive. We survive as a group and not as disconnected individuals in some mythical vacuum.

Bullshit.

 

Every emergency room in every hospital in the country provides necessary healthcare regardless of the patient's ability to pay. Every State in the Union has a Department of Health and every State has a public healthcare delivery system which provides healthcare services to the residents of the respective counties/parishes/municipalities/whatever, regardless of the patient's ability to pay.

[ralis]

Bullshit.

 

Every emergency room in every hospital in the country provides necessary healthcare regardless of the patient's ability to pay. Every State in the Union has a Department of Health and every State has a public healthcare delivery system which provides healthcare services to the residents of the respective counties/parishes/municipalities/whatever, regardless of the patient's ability to pay.

 

 

Public and not private. I stand by my statement that your belief is based on Social Darwinism and you can't refute that. Further, ER's are clogged with patients with conditions that preventative care would have alleviated and a little prevention with doctor visits would alleviate much of the burden place on the system. But, your legalistic argument that there is no universal right is quite disturbing.

[Trunk]

P.p.s.

Also, I'm (only a little) surprised that no one commented on the video of Wendell Potter. I mean, here is a guy who was working in the health care industry for 20 years and a VP of Cigna. (Probably no one even watched the video.)

As I said before, I try not to assume I know everything in a field where I don't. So much to learn. I highly doubt that any of you here have as much experience or study in the area as Wendell Potter? ... or are some of you former VP health care executives and have been humbly hiding your credentials, experience?

[cold]

The massive expansion of the SSI disability program was driven by the reduction of federal funds for unemployment to the states who wised up pretty quickly and encouraged the unemployed to apply for SSI.

 

At (my) last glance the vast majority of health care costs in the USA occur in an individuals last year or two of life.

 

Emergency room care for non life threatening illness or injury is so expensive as compared to urgent care and again compared to routine care.

 

My friend a roofing contractor sums it up this way, Pay me now $x or pay me $xxx later. Waiting for a tornado to remove the old shingles before replacing your leaky roof is an option too. Not a wise one penny wise pound foolish comes to mind.

[dawei]

Trump clearly makes the point that Americans have close to One option.

 

You're pivoting to the opposite now...  My comments are in regards to the new proposal but your's is in regards to current one.   I'm not talking the current/past.

 

The only explanation for why healthcare is so incredibly expensive in the USA is lack of competition in the marketplace. 

 

Please.... you can't really believe that... competition is going to solve this? 

 

I think there are some in the repeal/replace that do believe this and they are going to face a harsh reality if they hang their hat on that.     

[ralis]

 

P.p.s.

Also, I'm (only a little) surprised that no one commented on the video of Wendell Potter. I mean, here is a guy who was working in the health care industry for 20 years and a VP of Cigna. (Probably no one even watched the video.)

As I said before, I try not to assume I know everything in a field where I don't. So much to learn. I highly doubt that any of you here have as much experience or study in the area as Wendell Potter? ... or are some of you former VP health care executives and have been humbly hiding your credentials, experience?

 

 

 

I heard an interview with him and his statements were very informative. What has not been brought to the attention is the inflated salaries/bonuses of insurance CEO's and how they get to decide what procedure one receives or not. Corporate bottom line is the driving interest.

[Brian]

Public and not private. I stand by my statement that your belief is based on Social Darwinism and you can't refute that. Further, ER's are clogged with patients with conditions that preventative care would have alleviated and a little prevention with doctor visits would alleviate much of the burden place on the system. But, your legalistic argument that there is no universal right is quite disturbing.

Of course I can refute it, ralis! Your spurious claim that my "belief is based on Social Darwinism" is completely fabricated and is founded entirely on your binary false dichotomy -- "central planning or nihilism." I categorically reject your premise and I counter by saying you advocate for extreme totalitarianism which treats people as animals and you claim to care for individuals while actually denying their right to exist.

 

Refute that!

 

 

 

(I'll play your game if your really want to but you never like how it turns out...)

 

 

EDIT: Stupid smartphone.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Brian

[ralis]

Of course I can refute it, ralis! You're spurious claim that my "belief is based on Social Darwinism" is completely fabricated and is founded entirely on your binary false dichotomy -- "central planning or nihilism." I categorically reject your premise and I counter by saying you advocate for extreme totalitarianism which treats people as animals and you claim to care for individuals while actually denying their right to exist.

 

Refute that!

 

 

 

(I'll play your game if your really want to but you never like how it turns out...)

 

 

You narrative is absolutely bogus! Totalitarianism and treating people like animals? That is preposterous! All I said is that we are all part of a complex system of life in which the individual does not exist in a vacuum. Even the Buddhist's teach that.

 

Get angry all you want, but when you claim there is no right to healthcare, that is a divisive issue.

Edited March 15, 2017 by ralis