Trumpcare

[MooNiNite]

 i keep editing my post. Not to imply you agree with all/any of my additions. 

 

(edit!)

Edited March 15, 2017 by MooNiNite

[ralis]

What an outstanding argument against letting the government take over the healthcare system!

It was a general side note of personal experience. That is all.

[Brian]

It was a general side note of personal experience. That is all.

...and an outstanding argument against letting the government take over the healthcare system...

 

 

[blackstar212]

You narrative is absolutely bogus! Totalitarianism and treating people like animals? That is preposterous! All I said is that we are all part of a complex system of life in which the individual does not exist in a vacuum. Even the Buddhist's teach that.

 

Get angry all you want, but when you claim there is no right to healthcare, that is a divisive issue.

yes Canada and Sweden and Japan etc. Are all totalitarian lol.

 

I get that Brian does not like to flip the bill for those that are treated.

 

Tell me Brian should we stop treating those without the ability to pay?

[Brian]

yes Canada and Sweden and Japan etc. Are all totalitarian lol.

 

I get that Brian does not like to flip the bill for those that are treated.

 

Tell me Brian should we stop treating those without the ability to pay?

Why would you want to do that???

[blackstar212]

Why would you want to do that???

I would not like to do that. However I am interested in your answer.

 

Carrying people who cannot pay is an entitlement correct? Entitlements are bad therefore we should stop entitlements correct?

[Brian]

I would not like to do that. However I am interested in your answer.

 

Carrying people who cannot pay is an entitlement correct? Entitlements are bad therefore we should stop entitlements correct?

Nope.

 

Unlike you, I subscribe to the democratic process and rule of law.

 

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

The individual States or the people can choose to enact any "entitlement program" they wish by legal means. The legal means to empower the Federal government to create a "legal right" to "universal healthcare" would be by Constitutional Amendment.

 

 

We've been over this several times already but you seem to think the answer is going to change.

 

You still haven't read the US Constitution or the Ohio Constitution, have you?

[gendao]

Therefor, only the wealthy or who can afford it have access? What about the poor and those in dire circumstances? Your statement is just more Social Darwinism in which the weak will be left to die while persons of means such as yourself thrive. We survive as a group and not as disconnected individuals in some mythical vacuum.

 

See EO Wilson's work on biodiversity and biological altruism.

"Social Darwinism". The founder of this concept was a British philosopher named Herbert Spencer. The phrase "Survival of the Fittest", normally associated with biological evolution, was actually coined by Spencer in 1852, seven years before Darwin's "Origin of Species".  Spencer was so intrigued by Darwin's work that he expanded his writings into a comprehensive economic theory. This economic theory should sound very familiar:

1. "Society advances where its fittest members are allowed to assert their fitness with the least hindrance".
2.  On the other hand, the unfit should not be prevented from dying out.
3.  So, what kind of civilization is "fit?" His, of course. England and other "advanced" nations.
4.  Government has but two purposes - to defend the nation against foreign invasion, and to protect people and their property from criminals.
5.  Government should not help the poor. That only encourages laziness and vice.
6.  Public education is a bad idea, too, since it forces people to pay for others' education.
7.  All public regulation, including health laws, sanitation laws, housing laws, etc., interferes with the right of property owners, and therefore should be eliminated.
8.  Most taxation is merely confiscation of wealth, and therefore inhibits the natural evolution of society.
9. Spencer's a 100% free trader, of course. If we remove all regulation, monopolies won't happen because of natual competition, and if companies did terrible things (like, say, sell meat infected with e. coli or mad cow disease), nobody would buy their products again, so they'd go out of business.
10. Labor laws both infringe upon employers' rights and on the rights of the individual worker to negotiate individually with the employer.

So whether you LIKE them or not, do you believe that each of these tenets and the overarching philosophy, mimicking Nature's own methods for population and quality control (namely, fierce competition rewarding the winners) - is 100% wrong?

 

And if so, does that mean you would prefer the exact opposite of all his recommendations?

 

Or would you agree/disagree somewhat with various points?

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I have a health care plan for everyone





No cigarettes, alcohol etc you know, simple.

Only thing that there should be health cover for would be accidents. Other than that 95% plus is unnecessary, lifestyle choices people should be responsible for.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[blackstar212]

Nope.

 

Unlike you, I subscribe to the democratic process and rule of law.

 

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

The individual States or the people can choose to enact any "entitlement program" they wish by legal means. The legal means to empower the Federal government to create a "legal right" to "universal healthcare" would be by Constitutional Amendment.

 

 

We've been over this several times already but you seem to think the answer is going to change.

 

You still haven't read the US Constitution or the Ohio Constitution, have you?

I sure did.

 

Well since you are for entitlements and not against them then we should have universal healthcare.

 

You are also saying it is a right and if not then why should we continue to cover those who do not have the means to pay for it?

 

So you are okay with people without the ability to pay to have healthcare. This implies it is a right. Now we need to save the taxpayers some money by having preventive care instead of having them go to the emergency room all the time.

 

That was simple.

[Brian]

I sure did.

 

Well since you are for entitlements and not against them then we should have universal healthcare.

 

You are also saying it is a right and if not then why should we continue to cover those who do not have the means to pay for it?

 

So you are okay with people without the ability to pay to have healthcare. This implies it is a right. Now we need to save the taxpayers some money by having preventive care instead of having them go to the emergency room all the time.

 

That was simple.

You seem to imagine that you are clever.

 

Why is it that people who believe in totalitarianism, who reject the democratic process and despise rule of law, who literally deny individual rights and liberties, somehow convince themselves that they are kind and, ironically, that they are standing up for the downtrodden? Rationalization is a powerful thing.

 

No, healthcare is not a right, it is a privilege. (See also: chocolate milkshakes) Go back and read my earlier post on what rights are and are not -- and be sure to ask for help with the parts you can't understand, OK? I'll try to explain it in ways you can understand.

 

Since you live in the State of Ohio, perhaps you would consider learning about public health in Ohio? You might be surprised to learn that Ohio has an entire Department of Health! Complete with local offices throughout the State, dedicated to providing healthcare services to the residents of the State of Ohio including preventative care.

 

See how that works? Turns out it isn't a binary decision between central planning and nihilism after all! Who knew?!? Turns out, actually, that the entire crime against humanity from whence your worldview arises is based on that fraudulent premise of false dichotomy.

 

It's sad, really, that people get sucked into such a twisted philosophy but it isn't surprising because it is well-packaged and richly promoted. I have little patience for the willfully ignorant, and none at all for the intentional propagandist, but I do have sympathy for the "useful innocents." I continue to nudge and cajole and provide information because once in a while a light bulb blinks on and someone wakes up.

 

EDIT: Oh! Here's a link to get you started: https://www.odh.ohio.gov

Edited March 16, 2017 by Brian

[cold]

No cigarettes , alcohol etc...

 

Good luck with that, dismantle two (plus etc.) profitable industries, highly taxed mind you, requiring greater monitoring and enforcement.

Prohibition was so effective, not to mention the current war on drugs.

[blackstar212]

You seem to imagine that you are clever.

 

Why is it that people who believe in totalitarianism, who reject the democratic process and despise rule of law, who literally deny individual rights and liberties, somehow convince themselves that they are kind and, ironically, that they are standing up for the downtrodden? Rationalization is a powerful thing.

 

No, healthcare is not a right, it is a privilege. (See also: chocolate milkshakes) Go back and read my earlier post on what rights are and are not -- and be sure to ask for help with the parts you can't understand, OK? I'll try to explain it in ways you can understand.

 

Since you live in the State of Ohio, perhaps you would consider learning about public health in Ohio? You might be surprised to learn that Ohio has an entire Department of Health! Complete with local offices throughout the State, dedicated to providing healthcare services to the residents of the State of Ohio including preventative care.

 

See how that works? Turns out it isn't a binary decision between central planning and nihilism after all! Who knew?!? Turns out, actually, that the entire crime against humanity from whence your worldview arises is based on that fraudulent premise of false dichotomy.

 

It's sad, really, that people get sucked into such a twisted philosophy but it isn't surprising because it is well-packaged and richly promoted. I have little patience for the willfully ignorant, and none at all for the intentional propagandist, but I do have sympathy for the "useful innocents." I continue to nudge and cajole and provide information because once in a while a light bulb blinks on and someone wakes up.

 

EDIT: Oh! Here's a link to get you started: https://www.odh.ohio.gov

you continue to evade.

 

I have not asked what the laws are I asked what you believe. It seems you are indeed in favor of either social Darwinism or are happy with the current system of providing entitlements.

 

If I am mistaken please do tell me your ideal healthcare system.

[Brian]

you continue to evade.

 

I have not asked what the laws are I asked what you believe. It seems you are indeed in favor of either social Darwinism or are happy with the current system of providing entitlements.

 

If I am mistaken please do tell me your ideal healthcare system.

I evade nothing. I have clearly and plainly (and repeatedly) stated my beliefs on pretty much any topic I ever discuss here, including detailed explanations of the bases for those beliefs. Perhaps the problem lies not with my willingness to share but your unwillingness (or inability?) to comprehend?

 

Again, you try to advance a false dichotomy -- nihilism or totalitarianism. You don't recognize soft tyranny when you see it, of course, because you have convinced yourself that anyone who doesn't share your ideology and method is a murderous sociopath. <sigh>

[blackstar212]

I evade nothing. I have clearly and plainly (and repeatedly) stated my beliefs on pretty much any topic I ever discuss here, including detailed explanations of the bases for those beliefs. Perhaps the problem lies not with my willingness to share but your unwillingness (or inability?) to comprehend?

 

Again, you try to advance a false dichotomy -- nihilism or totalitarianism. You don't recognize soft tyranny when you see it, of course, because you have convinced yourself that anyone who doesn't share your ideology and method is a murderous sociopath. <sigh>

That's funny I cannot find it. I would think that you fall in line with Rand Paul.

 

Eliminate insurance companies and get government out of healthcare. It should be a private affair Doctors with patients.

[Brian]

That's funny I cannot find it. I would think that you fall in line with Rand Paul.

 

Eliminate insurance companies and get government out of healthcare. It should be a private affair Doctors with patients.

Instead of trying to think, try reading.

 

Obamacare was designed to collapse the current healthcare structure, eliminate insurance companies and lead inevitably to a complete takeover of US healthcare system -- soup to nuts, as the saying goes. Obama was on video explaining to physicians that they would be solely responsible for following government orders regarding healthcare delivery, and would be judged & compensated according to their willingness & ability to do so. Does this actually sound like the dichotomy you are attempting to describe or does it sound like something completely different?

 

Do you have car insurance? (It isn't mandatory in Ohio, you know...) If so, do you have comprehensive coverage or just basic liability? Does your car insurance include oil changes and wheel alignments and brake jobs? Does it include keeping your gas tank full? Don't you believe in the right to universal transportation? Shouldn't the government provide you with a free car, including all maintenance and consumables??? If not, what kind of monster are you?!? You must hate minorities...

 

 

<shrug>

[cold]

LOL

[blackstar212]

Instead of trying to think, try reading.

 

Obamacare was designed to collapse the current healthcare structure, eliminate insurance companies and lead inevitably to a complete takeover of US healthcare system -- soup to nuts, as the saying goes. Obama was on video explaining to physicians that they would be solely responsible for following government orders regarding healthcare delivery, and would be judged & compensated according to their willingness & ability to do so. Does this actually sound like the dichotomy you are attempting to describe or does it sound like something completely different?

 

Do you have car insurance? (It isn't mandatory in Ohio, you know...) If so, do you have comprehensive coverage or just basic liability? Does your car insurance include oil changes and wheel alignments and brake jobs? Does it include keeping your gas tank full? Don't you believe in the right to universal transportation? Shouldn't the government provide you with a free car, including all maintenance and consumables??? If not, what kind of monster are you?!? You must hate minorities...

 

 

<shrug>

Just so you know car insurance is mandatory by law in Ohio.

 

http://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/car-insurance.php

 

Fines and Penalties

 

When proof of insurance is required, failure to show or provide proof of insurance will lead to penalties that include:

•Loss of driving privileges. •This will require payment of a reinstatement fee in order to regain your privilege to drive.

 

•Suspension of plates and registration.

•Mandatory requirement of SR-22 filing. •SR-22 insurance is a type of proof of insurance usually filed by your insurance carrier, guaranteeing that you will remain insured for a specific period of time.

•SR-22 insurance can be costly. Avoid insurance violations to maintain low-cost premiums.

 

If you do not sign that you have car insurance they will not give you your license plates. So you would be driving illegally.

[blackstar212]

Instead of trying to think, try reading.

 

Obamacare was designed to collapse the current healthcare structure, eliminate insurance companies and lead inevitably to a complete takeover of US healthcare system -- soup to nuts, as the saying goes. Obama was on video explaining to physicians that they would be solely responsible for following government orders regarding healthcare delivery, and would be judged & compensated according to their willingness & ability to do so. Does this actually sound like the dichotomy you are attempting to describe or does it sound like something completely different?

 

Do you have car insurance? (It isn't mandatory in Ohio, you know...) If so, do you have comprehensive coverage or just basic liability? Does your car insurance include oil changes and wheel alignments and brake jobs? Does it include keeping your gas tank full? Don't you believe in the right to universal transportation? Shouldn't the government provide you with a free car, including all maintenance and consumables??? If not, what kind of monster are you?!? You must hate minorities...

 

 

<shrug>

Obamacare is awful. But you still avoid the questions that take only a moment to answer. I will take it that what I posted is correct.

[Brian]

Just so you know car insurance is mandatory by law in Ohio.

 

http://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/car-insurance.php

 

Fines and Penalties

 

When proof of insurance is required, failure to show or provide proof of insurance will lead to penalties that include:

•Loss of driving privileges. •This will require payment of a reinstatement fee in order to regain your privilege to drive.

 

•Suspension of plates and registration.

•Mandatory requirement of SR-22 filing. •SR-22 insurance is a type of proof of insurance usually filed by your insurance carrier, guaranteeing that you will remain insured for a specific period of time.

•SR-22 insurance can be costly. Avoid insurance violations to maintain low-cost premiums.

 

If you do not sign that you have car insurance they will not give you your license plates. So you would be driving illegally.

Nope!

 

 

You can demonstrate financial responsibility in lieu of obtaining liability insurance coverage.

 

http://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/bmv3146.pdf

 

EDIT: You may have noticed that there were a few question marks in that post, BTW. I have seen that you think questions asked of you must be rhetorical (for some strange reason) but they aren't. Your failure to answer them will be "taken" as confirmation that you are a minority-hating monster, OK?

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Brian

[Brian]

Obamacare is awful. But you still avoid the questions that take only a moment to answer. I will take it that what I posted is correct.

You can "take" any cockamamie idea you want to believe -- it's a free country!

 

I haven't avoided any question but I have refused to choose between two bogus options you present as a false dichotomy.

 

So, let me ask you -- do you still molest your daughter? Or do you just molest other girls now that your daughter is grown? Just two simple yes or no questions! Why won't you answer them??? I don't want explanations or discourse, just answer the questions or we'll assume...

 

Now, I'm not really suggesting you are a child molester. I have no reason to suspect that you are and I don't suspect that you are! Just illustrating how the disingenuous "game" of false binaries is played.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Brian

[MooNiNite]

So you have to just give them $30,000? and they dont give it back? and they get interest on it? what a scam. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

Actually you can drive without insurance in any state because you have "a right to travel."

 

You don't need a license plate, insurance, or even a driver's license

Edited March 16, 2017 by MooNiNite

[dawei]

Who is willing to tackle this question:   Why did premiums raise so much over the last few years ?

 

I have assumed it is because more folks were being insured (mandated) who required much more treatment and care... prior to that, maybe the hospitals and/or state picked up that cost but now it was shifted to the insurance companies picking it up (and thus affecting their bottom line) ?

[Brian]

Who is willing to tackle this question:   Why did premiums raise so much over the last few years ?

 

I have assumed it is because more folks were being insured (mandated) who required much more treatment and care... prior to that, maybe the hospitals and/or state picked up that cost but now it was shifted to the insurance companies picking it up (and thus affecting their bottom line) ?

Same reason the cost of K-12 education skyrocketed once the Federal Education Department started asserting itself. Same reason the cost of secondary education has skyrocketed since the Feds inserted itself into higher education and especially student financial aid. Disconnect payer & recipient and there is no incentive for stewardship.

 

Did you know the Feds took over student financial aid? Most people don't because the Ministry of Truth hides that detail. Pell Grants continue but federal student loans are the hot item now -- in part because they don't really have to be paid back. Nice arrangement, eh?

 

 

EDIT: Looking for the next engineered "bubble?" Look no further...

Edited March 16, 2017 by Brian