Mair 6:2

[Marblehead]

Life and death are destined.  Their constant alternation, like that of day and night, is due to heaven.  What men are unable to interfere with are the attributes of all things.  They particularly regard heaven as their father and love it with their very person.  How much more should they love that which surpasses heaven!  Men particularly regard their lord as superior to themselves and would sacrifice their very person for him.  How much more should they be willing to do so for what is truer than any lord!

When springs dry up, fish huddle together on the land.  They blow moisture on each other and keep each other wet with their slime.  But it would be better if they could forget themselves in the rivers and lakes.  Rather than praising Yao [sage] and condemning Chieh [tyrant], it would be better for people to forget both of them and assimilate their ways.

A boat may be hidden in a gully on a hill that, in turn, is hidden away in a marsh.  We may think this is a secure arrangement, but someone strong might come in the middle of the night and bear (both) the boat (and the hill) away, unbeknownst to the sleeping owner.  The idea of hiding the smaller in the larger is appropriate, yet things may still disappear.  But if we were to hide all under heaven {{A traditional expression for the Chinese empire (literally, "heaven / sky-below") that occurs hundreds of times in the Chuang Tzu.  In this translation, when considered collectively as"the world" or "the empire," it is grammatically treated as a singular noun phrase (as though it might be written "all-under-heaven").  When considered as the constituent elements, things, or men and women that go to make up the world or the empire, it is grammatically treated as a plural noun phrase.}} inside of all under heaven, nothing would disappear. 

This is the great attribute of the eternality of things.  We are especially happy when we chance to take on human form.  What incalculable joy there is in these myriad transformations, such as human form, which never begin to reach a limit!  Therefore, the sage wanders where things do not disappear and all are preserved.  If people will emulate one who is good at being young and good at growing old, good at beginning and good at ending, how much more should they emulate that to which the myriad things are joined and upon which the unity of transformation depends!

[Taoist Texts]

Moving from this

 

 inside of all under heaven, nothing would disappear. 

 

 

to this

This is the great attribute of the eternality of things.  We are especially happy when we chance to take on human form.  

 

 

is a bit unclear. Otherwise, one of the most lucid passages.

[Marblehead]

 

is a bit unclear. Otherwise, one of the most lucid passages.

 

 

I think the boat thing could have been expressed more clearly.  But yes, the overall concept was pretty clear.

[Stosh]

I don't get this one at all. 

[Marblehead]

I don't get this one at all. 

 

Oh, No!!!  Basically, there are natural processes, they make up the path of least resistance. 

 

But this will be a good test for me tomorrow to see if I can find a translation that speaks more accurately to the concept.

[Taoist Texts]

I don't get this one at all. 

 

join the club

 

[Marblehead]

Sometimes our cup is so full there is no room for more tea.

[Marblehead]

Okay.  Three different translations of Chapter 6, Section 2.

 

 

 

 

Burton Watson

Life and death are fated - constant as the succession of dark and dawn, a matter of Heaven. There are some things, which man can do nothing about - all are a matter of the nature of creatures. If a man is willing to regard Heaven as a father and to love it, then how much more should he be willing to do for that which is even greater! If he is willing to regard the ruler as superior to himself and to die for him, then how much more should he be willing to do for the Truth!

When the springs dry up and the fish are left stranded on the ground, they spew each other with moisture and wet each other down with spit - but it would be much better if they could forget each other in the rivers and lakes. Instead of praising Yao and condemning Chieh, it would be better to forget both of them and transform yourself with the Way.

The Great Clod burdens me with form, labors me with life, eases me in old age, and rests me in death. So if I think well of my life, for the same reason I must think well of my death.

You hide your boat in the ravine and your fish net in the swamp and tell yourself that they will be safe. But in the middle of the night a strong man shoulders them and carries them off, and in your stupidity you don't know why it happened. You think you do right to hide little things in big ones, and yet they get away from you.

But if you were to hide the world in the world, so that nothing could get away, this would be the final reality of the constancy of things.

You have had the audacity to take on human form and you are delighted. But the human form has ten thousand changes that never come to an end. Your joys, then, must be uncountable. Therefore, the sage wanders in the realm where things cannot get away from him, and all are preserved. He delights in early death; he delights in old age; he delights in the beginning; he delights in the end. If he can serve as a model for men, how much more so that which the ten thousand things are tied to and all changes alike wait upon!

 

 

 

Lin Yutng

Life and Death are a part of Destiny. Their sequence, like day and night, is of God, beyond the interference of man. These all lie in the inevitable nature of things. He simply looks upon God as his father; if he loves him with what is born of the body, shall he not love him also with that which is greater than the body? A man looks upon a ruler of men as one superior to himself; if he is willing to sacrifice his body (for his ruler), shall he not then offer his pure (spirit) also?

When the pond dries up and the fishes are left upon the dry ground, rather than leave them to moisten each other with their damp and spittle it would be far better to let them forget themselves in their native rivers - and lakes. And it would be better than praising Yao and blaming Chieh to forget both (the good and bad) and lose oneself in Tao.

The Great (universe) gives me this form, this toil in manhood, this repose in old age, this rest in death. And surely that which is such a kind arbiter of my life is the best arbiter of my death.

A boat may be hidden in a creek, or concealed in a bog, which is generally considered safe. But at midnight a strong man may come and carry it away on his back. Those dull of understanding do not perceive that however you conceal small things in larger ones, there will always be a chance of losing them. But if you entrust that which belongs to the universe to the whole universe, from it there will be no escape. For this is the great law of things.

To have been cast in this human form is to us already a source of joy. How much greater joy beyond our conception to know that that which is now in human form may undergo countless transitions, with only the infinite to look forward to? Therefore it is that the Sage rejoices in that which can never be lost, but endures always. For if we emulate those who can accept graciously long age or short life and the vicissitudes of events, how much more that which informs all creation on which all changing phenomena depend?

 

 

 

Nina Correa

Death and life are destined. They're as certain as the sky progressing from night into dawn. There are certain things a person can't do anything about. All living things are in that situation. There are those who set up a special figure as the Father of the Heavens (God) and are only able to love the image they have of him as a person. There might be something even above that! People set up someone who they believe has special powers to heal them, but their bodies eventually die anyway. There might be something even more effective than that!

When a stream dries up the fish gather together in a crater on the land. They moisten each other with their saliva and splatter each other with foam. It'd be better for them to be swimming freely in rivers and lakes than to be concerned with having to do these things to keep each other alive. Rather than to praise Yao and condemn Jie, it would be better to forget both of them and how different their Ways were.

The great clump of earth (the world) is loaded down with our physical forms, struggles to keep us alive, cradles us in our old age, and provides a place to rest our bodies after we die. Therefore, what's good at keeping us alive will also be good at providing a place for us to die.

A man may try to hide away a boat in a gully, which would be like trying to hide a mountain in a swamp, but he believes it's in a secure place. Even so, around midnight a strong person might come along and hoist the boat onto his shoulders and walk away with it. Since it was so dark outside, no one would know. Hiding something small within something larger might seem like the appropriate thing to do, yet anything could still be carted off. If a man were to hide everything in the world within the world, there would be no place left for anything to be removed to. Living things are already constantly in this great situation. Someone might have an especially attractive body, and they'd be pleased about that. However, a human shape can be changed by any number of things, and those changes might not necessarily ever come to an end. Is there pleasure to be found in counting the victories? Therefore, a wise person will travel where things take them rather than trying to constrain things where they don't belong.

Whether it's better to die young or to live to an old age; whether things will start out good or end up good - people just keep looking for ways to find meaning in those things. It's like everyone is looking for more things to be concerned about, as though they're waiting for one thing to come along and change everything!

[Marblehead]

Doing the above wasn't fun and I will likely not do it again.

 

Perhaps only one alternate translation when requested.

[Stosh]

Thank you for all that effort. These seem to read nicely, but arent identical. So is this chapter a summation of sorts in your own opinion?

[Stosh]

Since I can indeed read these, I will go ahead and speak what I see in these leaves , he suggests here , embracing life , despite difficulty loss and death itself. Maybe he felt that considering all that he had said already that he needed to be especially clear on this. To say he was not advocating nihilism, but more as Id put it, the rationale to see it all being good? .......( All except Ninas translation;) )

I figure HHDL was later enlightened about ordering pizza by staff .

Edited March 15, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Thank you for all that effort. These seem to read nicely, but arent identical. So is this chapter a summation of sorts in your own opinion?

 

Yeah, I suppose we could say that this is the essence of Taoist Philosophy in a very small nut shell.

 

Birth and death are destined.  We can't do anything about that.  But between the two is life.  How much of our life do we trust to our own means and how much do we trust to the universe?

[dawei]

Birth and death are destined.  

 

Interesting you quoted Nina... she does have a good view at times

[Marblehead]

Interesting you quoted Nina... she does have a good view at times

 

Yeah, I was on her forum for a while and we had some good discussions.  We didn't always agree but that's life.

[Stosh]

Oops, I didnt know you knew her Mh, sorry.

[Marblehead]

Oops, I didnt know you knew her Mh, sorry.

 

No problem Stosh.  I prefer you speaking truth rather than trying to be PC.

[Stosh]

good, I cant keep it up for more than a few minutes without getting sick to my stomach.

[dawei]

No problem Stosh.  I prefer you speaking truth rather than trying to be PC.

 

And that was her exact position too...  I appreciated her energy and effort to allow open discussion.

[dawei]

Ok, so I read through this section and still find I like Eno's translation more.... but it differs in several points.

 

But overall, I see ZZ still saying his main point:  Forget 'this and that'; forget duality issues of thinking and emotions; focus on singularity of Dao.   With some practical comments:  If life is good then death is good.  

 

The most interesting comment from Eno was:

 

But our human shape will undergo ten thousand future changes and not even begin to reach the end – those joys are beyond calculation.

 

Mair:

What incalculable joy there is in these myriad transformations, such as human form, which never begin to reach a limit!  

 

Watson:

But the human form has ten thousand changes that never come to an end. Your joys, then, must be uncountable.

 

Yutang:

To have been cast in this human form is to us already a source of joy. How much greater joy beyond our conception to know that that which is now in human form may undergo countless transitions, with only the infinite to look forward to? 

 

Nina:

However, a human shape can be changed by any number of things, and those changes might not necessarily ever come to an end. Is there pleasure to be found in counting the victories?

[Taoist Texts]

The most interesting comment from Eno was:

 

But our human shape will undergo ten thousand future changes and not even begin to reach the end – those joys are beyond calculation.

 

They all got this sentence wrong

 

特犯人之形而犹喜之，若人之形者，万化而未始有极也，其为乐可胜计邪！

Only being made a human is joyful, for the human shape comes from the myriad transformations, which have no beginning but have an end, at which the joy may be incalculable.

 

 

The idea is that a human shape is the result of painful transformations that have no beginning but come to their acme at the human birth. After that the human shape can be a source of incalculable joys only if it is preserved properly. And preserved it is by a secret trick of 'hiding oneself in the things'.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Stosh]

And that was her exact position too...  I appreciated her energy and effort to allow open discussion.

I should probably ring her up, she'd just love me live on her blog thing I bet.

[morning dew]

Mair

When springs dry up, fish huddle together on the land.  They blow moisture on each other and keep each other wet with their slime.  But it would be better if they could forget themselves in the rivers and lakes.  Rather than praising Yao [sage] and condemning Chieh [tyrant], it would be better for people to forget both of them and assimilate their ways.

 

 

 

 

 

Burton Watson

When the springs dry up and the fish are left stranded on the ground, they spew each other with moisture and wet each other down with spit - but it would be much better if they could forget each other in the rivers and lakes. Instead of praising Yao and condemning Chieh, it would be better to forget both of them and transform yourself with the Way.

 

 

 

 

Lin Yutng

When the pond dries up and the fishes are left upon the dry ground, rather than leave them to moisten each other with their damp and spittle it would be far better to let them forget themselves in their native rivers - and lakes. And it would be better than praising Yao and blaming Chieh to forget both (the good and bad) and lose oneself in Tao.

 

 

Okay, this whole fish thing … I'm assuming it's talking about things like status and self-esteem and comparing yourself to others and categorising certain behaviours or achievements as good or bad, etc? The solution is to do whatever you do, to be authentic and natural, and forget self-awareness/self-reference during the process? Is this Zen's "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep"?

Edited April 19, 2017 by morning dew

[Marblehead]

Okay, this whole fish thing … I'm assuming it's talking about things like status and self-esteem and comparing yourself to others and categorising certain behaviours or achievements as good or bad, etc? The solution is to do whatever you do, to be authentic and natural, and forget self-awareness/self-reference during the process? Is this Zen's "When you are hungry, eat; when you are tired, sleep"?

 

I think you have a good understanding of the paragraph.

 

Pretty much in my understanding it is suggesting that we place our self in conditions so that we can live our life naturally and not worry so much about what others are doing.

[morning dew]

I think you have a good understanding of the paragraph.

 

Pretty much in my understanding it is suggesting that we place our self in conditions so that we can live our life naturally and not worry so much about what others are doing.

 

Ah, so you think this is physical as well as psychological distancing? Do you think ZZ is suggesting actually physically avoiding these (status-seeking/competing) people? I get the impression ZZ is not as concerned with us setting people on the 'right' path as something like Buddhism is.

[Marblehead]

Ah, so you think this is physical as well as psychological distancing? Do you think ZZ is suggesting actually physically avoiding these (status-seeking/competing) people? I get the impression ZZ is not as concerned with us setting people on the 'right' path as something like Buddhism is.

 

Nice response.  I didn't expect anything like it.

 

I have to be honest and first state that Chuang Tzu was very much a mystic.  However, I believe he was more of a wonderer in this area, asked many questions but gave very few answers.

 

However, regarding the physical aspect of reality, he made many statements (of truth) and freely voiced his opinion.  So yes, I would say that he was more interested in the person's psychological and physical well-being.  (What happens after death was and still is an unknown.  Kinda' like trying to describe Dao.)

 

And I would agree, Chuang Tzu would likely avoid those who wished to always compete and seek the labels of status.