All energy is equal?

[Bindi]

I'm trying to understand why sexual energy would be considered to be the same as spiritual energy (or kundalini energy), or why all energies would be considered to be the same, I don't understand the concept without resorting to ideas like transmutation or refinement, which would make them not the same?

 

 

[3bob]

think of a prism, on one side white light, on the other side multiple colors (or energy in different forms) which are not the same yet have the same source.

[Bindi]

So if someone has gone beyond all form, it may be true to say all energy is the same, but can we ever go beyond all form while we are alive? At what point can all energy is the same be actually applied to anything biological?

[qicat]

it may be true to say all energy is the same

yes.

all energy is the same at that level...

however, you are not operating at that level

because there is nothing to operate at that level

when I spoke to someone about the subject you ask

he said

"it supposed to be that way"

"it's like a coin"

"both sides"

one is non-duality ( nothing, but energy, no grades/degrees/modalities/etc) and another one is duality ( hot/cold, male/female, yin/yang, sex "love"/heart "love", etc)

the only issue is that humans are not built to exist at non-duality level. For those who had kundalini experiences ( after you pass the "ring of fire"), you are not "technically" human anymore. I always found it hard to explain in human words... 

 

***

added some background info

 

sometime ago I had found a way with certain kryia to get to "non-duality" state within 20 minutes... I did not know anything about kundalini, dao, qigong, etc... however, my Being obviously was trained not one life time in this stuff. As a human, I was lucky I saved my brains and I think I am somewhat stable to function in this society after such experiments. I would NOT advice ANYBODY to do it ( unless you are a reincarnate I guess and know the stuff you are doing). Anyways, long story short, I found it very hard to INTEGRATE the experience of duality and non-duality at the point of NOW. I.e. how can I be here, walk around, do human stuff and at the same time be totally aware all of this at this very exact moment is nothing, but energy without any grading/any separation/any emotion/any devas ( i.e. level up)/etc. And when I asked one person, he said ( Shivaist Kashmir Tantra), it's what you think it's supposed to be ( separate) , but it does not have to be the way YOU think it supposed to be. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by qicat

[z00se]

Is an electron equal to a proton? It's the polar opposite, but equal in charge. Equal but not the same

 

At current in Australia we have gays and others lobbying for "equal rights". They propose that marriage should be equal and that we should change the wording of the current law so that marriage can be man and woman or man & man or woman & woman. I accept it's equal, however i don't accept it is the same. I propose that a new, equal law should be created for those who are gay. But the gay community seem intent on having one law for everybody. While personally it doesn't worry me too much, i am well aware that there would be many who would feel sick about the prospect that a hetro couple are seen as the same as a gay couple. I'm sure as time goes on we will see who's rights are more important.

 

Sooo, sexual energy is not the same as spiritual energy, it's completely different. But it's "equal". Equal in that sexual energy can make a baby, and spiritual can't, but spiritual can give a grander life purpose but sexual can't. Perhaps if the two are blended together all meaning is lost. Then they really are the same, yet neither is spectacular in their own right. While something is gained, something is lost.

[3bob]

So if someone has gone beyond all form, it may be true to say all energy is the same, but can we ever go beyond all form while we are alive? At what point can all energy is the same be actually applied to anything biological?

 

The atom or Atman of us is always beyond the limitations or bindings of form being that it is alive (beyond death) in the eternal moment;  while the human form is one of many matrix's for Atman to manifest through.  Btw, if it was not for Spirit springing forth from Atman (like in the analogy of a prism) there would be no biological matrix's; it should also be noted that there are laws as to what levels of energy particular matrix's can work with or have "applied" depending on how evolved and in alignment to Spirit they are.  Anyway, we are all walking around in an ocean of pure energy right now and in the awareness of that ocean there is no difference in energy, existential separation or fear per the realization of the deathless and free Atman that we are!  

Edited March 13, 2017 by 3bob

[C T]

Would there not be some spiritual manifestation that goes into the creation of a new life, no? (reflecting on what zoose mentioned above). 

 

The way i see it, at some point (literally, the bindu) in the physical union of two beings from opposite genders, it will reach an apex where a subtle inseparability occurs - there has to be, for a birth to begin, no? If this inseparability fails to reach its max potential for some reason or other, then no new birth will take place. Its like refining the dual into ever-subtler levels until a desired goal is reached.

 

Like any and all processes that is initiated where an end objective is clearly defined, all the different strategies will have to gradually converge, where options - what works, what does not work... these become clearer and subsequently the bits that are deemed irrelevant and are seen to be obstacles are discarded so as to nurture this birth (goal) with the best possible advantage in order to obtain fruition. This principle is uniformly applicable in all facets of life, be it physical or not - yes or no? 

 

Harnessing energy cannot be somehow excluded from this universal principle, imo. Though it appears there are gross and subtle, dense and light energies, quite colourful like the spectrum of a rainbow, some of which impinge on the physical world in such a way as to create the illusion of variety and a multitude of shades to the less observant, in essence, to the one who is desireless, it is all of one taste - mere displays that arise and return to the alaya, again, like how a rainbow appears and its mere existence and disappearance grasped by the senses. What takes place if no grasping occurs? 

 

Therefore, the practice that allows a refinement of view that eventually leads to seeing the equanimity of all things begins with understanding the path that leads to the cessation of desire. Its a path of renunciation, thats why in some traditions one who practices absorptions and various austerities is known as a renunciate. We need to know what is being renounced and why, if we truly want to investigate this subject conclusively. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by C T

[allinone]

for now mainstream churches doesn't deal with transforming. What they do is talk and touch you in a way similar to asmr, to fill the spot in you what needs nuturing.

 

at some point you know how to do it yourself, you will go yourself to look help, if it happens to be in a building or is it a certain color or a memory, it all serves one purpose to get off and call it a day.

 

stay in awareness, means you do nothing much, you will soon have something what needs nuturing. You will see that some things take too long time and is a waste, but yet not have a better way established, so you need more knowledge and experience on that front, so you learn to cultivate.

[awaken]

I'm trying to understand why sexual energy would be considered to be the same as spiritual energy (or kundalini energy), or why all energies would be considered to be the same, I don't understand the concept without resorting to ideas like transmutation or refinement, which would make them not the same?

You are right .

 

They are not the same.

[3bob]

talk of illusion is often misleading at best...for when perception is correct there is no illusion.

 

The "Absolute" (if you will) is connected to and through transformations to all existing forms, forms which can not be separate from that connection. (and with that being so where would one say this or that is really  illusion?)  Not unlike the analogy of the white light on one side of a prism being connected to the colors on its other side, and with that being so are those colors really illusion?

[allinone]

you can place near that bundle of lights a foto-sensitive substance and it will react, so you will have another chain of real illusions.

 

hmm i got upgrade just now, maybe a small cessation in some part of brain. Nice..

[3bob]

There is no illusion to normally unseen electrons passing through copper wire windings on one side of an iron core transformer thus creating a normally unseen magnetic field which then carries (or induces) transformed energy across its core to copper windings on its other side where stepped up or down electrical voltage and current can then be connected and used in a electrical circuit. (which is obviously an undeniable transformation, re-transformation and movement of forms of energy)

 

Now imagine the "Absolute", it to is connected like the transformer described above but instead of just being a particular and limited  magnetic field - it Is an unchanging, non-evolving "Mystery" or Source - and on its other side so to speak is the "One" (to me anyway and as mentioned in the T.T.C.) which is the very first and purest ocean of manifest energy after which it contains all of the following and also flowing or forms of energy in flux. (through further transformations by "the Two, The Three", etc...and as in evolving matrix's for same)

 

Anyway, who of us particular beings really wants to let go of everything and "return" to the Mystery or no-thing via retracing transformations (?) excepting for that same Mystery which desires to break free of the identity of limiting veils that cover it - and then realizing that it never really left Itself - 

Eureka!

Edited March 13, 2017 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

From the Triadic Heart of Siva.

 

To understand the tantric attitude towards sexuality requires a rather

drastic change of perspective. Accustomed as we are by a twentieth-century

Freudian mentality to seeing sexuality as the underlying reality or meaning

of all sorts and varieties of symbols, we are inclined to say that the Tantra

uses sexual symbolism and projects this human symbol onto the larger

scale of the universe and its origin. In order to understand the sexual

aspect of the tantric "secret" ritual, however, we must first come to view

the human dimension as being totally sacralized. From this sacralized

perspective, the body and all of its activities are seen as divine. The process

of human reproduction can then be celebrated as being itself but a specific

instance, example, and even symbol, of the larger and much more important

process by which the entire universe manifests from the absolute reality.

This grand overflowing of the absolute reality into specific, finite realities

is not in itself a sexual process. Rather, by reversing our viewpoint we

can see the finite realities of human life as "marked" by the absolute reality.

They indelibly belong to that absolute reality by their capacity to replicate,

imitate, and participate, on the small individual scale, in the process of

divine creativity. This is why the tradition refuses any outright equation

between the linga and the phallus. Such an equation misses the essential

point of the icon, that it is a representation of the divinity of Siva himself,

rather than of any specific detail of human anatomy.

 

For the moment we can say that there is an important sense in which

sexuality simply repeats and continues the overflowing of the absolute

reality that manifests the entire universe as it emerges from Siva or from

the womb of the Goddess. It is this macrocosmic, creative power that is

important to the tantric practitioner, and not the brief and comparatively

weak spasm of orgasm. The macrocosmic power known as the Emissional

Power is important because if a person is successful in awakening and

attuning to it, liberation will result, In this sense, human sexuality becomes

a physical metaphor for this blissful, cosmic, creative wave that continuously

surges at the core of all things and that may be experienced within the body

as the bliss resulting from the awakened kundalini Clearly, the purpose

of the secret ritual is not conventional orgasm, though this may occur.

It is rather the experience of union and unity known as samata, or sahaja

samadhi. The ritual facilitates the discovery of spiritual awakening and

ensures its permanence for the practitioner.

With that being said it is all light, it is only our depth and clarity that creates differences.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Jonesboy

[dwai]

I'm trying to understand why sexual energy would be considered to be the same as spiritual energy (or kundalini energy), or why all energies would be considered to be the same, I don't understand the concept without resorting to ideas like transmutation or refinement, which would make them not the same?

It is the same thing vibrating in different frequencies

[Brian]

It is the same thing vibrating in different frequencies

This.

[Brian]

I would say "vibrating differently" because vibration is more complex than just frequency and amplitude, and we can't really even describe yet what "it" is that's vibrating, but I think the underlying concept is in the right ballpark

[dwai]

I am not entirely sure that I agree that it is the same thing at different frequencies.

 

In some ways, this is a very nice and simple explanation that can relate the capacity for different energies to do different things to some of their generic traits.

 

However (and I don't want to pretend to speak for falun gong), after reading through their materials and listening to their lectures, I think their model of reality has merit. It speaks of mind and matter as being two aspects of the same thing. In this way, they can never actually be separated. Therefore, when we speak about a material thing (e.g. energy, which is physical when compared to mind/awareness), its inherent materiality---the material itself, has a demarcation that does not strictly correlate to frequency.

 

It is possible that different materials might have specific and differing "frequencies" that they function at. But, even so, a frequency is derived from a wavelength and the wave requires a medium: a material. So, though we might be able to describe things as different frequencies, the capability of a material to hold the frequency will determine its state. This is why traditional alchemy is set apart from modern alchemy which simply moves things in orbits and circuits to refine things; traditional alchemy actually brings materials together and generates a consolidated product after taking in different reagents. It is a very material (almost chemical) process. You can get similar effects from just changing the frequency and you could possibly articulate the same operation by using the change in frequency to get one type of energy to engage and react with another type of energy. However, the process (when it is stable and not temporary) requires an alteration of material.

 

So frequency is definitely important (I won't dispute that); but I think there is more to this than just saying that frequency is the only quality that makes energies distinct.

Yes consciousness and energy are one and the same. In fact energy is just another projection of consciousness.

 

Let's see if this way makes sense ---

 

when consciousness arises from the primal awareness (Dao), a polarity (+ and -) is created. This is the basic vibration. As consciousness remains (Like a wave on the surface of the ocean), It appears to spread as a wave (a series of such vibrations). This is called energy. When this creation of polarity is slow, it is is jing. When it slows further, it becomes matter. When it speeds further it becomes qi, when it vibrates even faster, it becomes Shen. When it vibrates so fast, infinitely fast, it becomes emptiness, as there is no polarity notable anymore. The polarity becomes a quantum state (all the possibilities are enfolded in it. -- both poles simultaneously co-exist, and it appears as if neither exists, no apparent movement, hence empty).

Edited March 13, 2017 by dwai

[dwai]

Well, if the principle is correct then we're only ever going to experience energy in one/some of its variations. Classifying the vibration on its own doesn't make sense in the same way that considering absolute empty space doesn't make sense; both space and vibration require something that will instantiate them. And, with that, we only ever access these abstract notions of things through the material stuff that instantiates them.

 

If we take this mind/matter composite as the stuff of reality, each quantum of energy is unique and the only things that they have in common are the structure of the relations that they establish between other quantums of energy. In this way, the uniqueness of the material cannot be glossed over by the notion of vibration because "vibration" is a generalization of how unique quantums of energy relate to one-another.

 

----I'm a bit of a hardliner on the issue of consciousness because I see it as similar to vibration and space----it requires a complement; there is no consciousness before the complement of consciousness; consciousness gives rise to nothing; consciousness exists as a receptive accompanying factor to its complement. This mysterious quality is at the heart of yin and yang and part of the inneffablity of Tao.

 

**quantum used in an adjectival rather than technical sense

Why does consciousness need a complement? If we consider the primary stuff of the universe to be pure objectless consciousness or awareness, does that help resolve?

 

People seem to have a problem with this because they presuppose that matter exists, and consciousness happens to it. Yet matter wouldn't exist if there was no consciousness. You could argue, that might not be the case. Yet there is no way for us to know unless we were conscious...

[Brian]

I was quite the pedantic physicist when I joined the forum. In the intervening years, beginning very soon after I become part of the Stillness-Movement lineage, I have had the privilege of gaining certain bits of experiential knowledge which have substantially expanded my perspective.

 

[Bindi]

It is the same thing vibrating in different frequencies

 

 

This.

 

This makes sense to me, with the different frequencies. And the frequency matters.

 

A few questions...

 

I suspect different paths create different vibration frequencies, which would appear as completely different energy patterns?

 

How does matter relate to vibration frequency? If frequency is increased/refined in a person, this would be expressed as physical health for example?

 

What would creating an immortal spirit look like in energy terms, the same vibration as 'the source', or still a variation, differentiated?

 

Incease/refinement of vibration would require a very specific action as it is working against entropy?

Edited March 14, 2017 by Bindi

[dwai]

This makes sense to me, with the different frequencies. And the frequency matters.

 

A few questions...

 

I suspect different paths create different vibration frequencies, which would appear as completely different energy patterns?

 

How does matter relate to vibration frequency? If frequency is increased/refined in a person, this would be expressed as physical health for example?

 

What would creating an immortal spirit look like in energy terms, the same vibration as 'the source', or still a variation, differentiated?

 

Incease/refinement of vibration would require a very specific action as it is working against entropy?

Matter is just energy vibrating at a lower frequency (within a specific range).

 

Immortal spirit would be a slightly differentiated yet at higher frequency than "your or me"..

 

What I've experienced is that it is all a continuum...we are just a continuum of a cloud of energy, where then bodies etc are just more dense clouds than that which exists in nature.

 

EDIT: clarification -- by immortal spirit I mean the daoist spiritual embryo type concept, not Atman

Edited March 14, 2017 by dwai

[3bob]

Atman and or Spirit is not created in the sense of constructing something, whereas a matrix for Spirit is constructed (or woven and maintained so to speak) and can last a very, very long time - for instance millions of earth years.  Btw, if Hindu text is referenced Lord Brahma the creator, lasts for the entire cosmic cycle of many billions of years.  If Buddhist text is referenced the historic Buddha is quoted as saying that he could have remained (per what I assume would have been in a subtle body by whatever name the Buddhist may call it) for the rest of the cosmic cycle - which he directly alluded to when asking Ananda about it. There are many more detailed descriptions along these lines for various matrix's.  (which Taoist practitioner's could go into)  

[3bob]

Another point to consider is that the energy that is can not be gained or lost...further and from a spiritual pov. the "One" can not gain or loose from the One.

 

thus thinking about and exercising the effort to gain Self or enlightenment is problematic - being that the Self does not and can not gain or lose the Self; there is also the saying, "nothing ventured, nothing gained" yet that has to be rewritten for spiritual practice since it doesn't really apply to it in the same way. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by 3bob

[allinone]

hindu units of time For Brahma[edit]

• 1000 Mahā-Yugas = 1 Kalpa = 1 day (day only) of Brahma

(2 Kalpas constitute a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion human years)

• 30 days of Brahma = 1 month of Brahma (259.2 billion human years)
• 12 months of Brahma = 1 year of Brahma (3.1104 trillion human years)
• 50 years of Brahma = 1 Parārdha
• 2 parardhas = 100 years of Brahma = 1 Para = 1 Mahā-Kalpa (the lifespan of Brahma) (311.04 trillion human years)

[Jeff]

Another point to consider is that the energy that is can not be gained or lost...further and from a spiritual pov. the "One" can not gain or loose from the One.

 

thus thinking about and exercising the effort to gain Self or enlightenment is problematic - being that the Self does not and can not gain or lose the Self; there is also the saying, "nothing ventured, nothing gained" yet that has to be rewritten for spiritual practice since it doesn't really apply to it in the same way. 

 

 

While I would agree relative to the hindu framework of "Self", this concept is not accurate relative to the "One" in taoism.  The one emerges from the Dao and is not limited to (or locked in) like the Self. The One can change residing in the Dao. Additionally, this concept does not map to buddhism as emptiness and the dharmakaya of a buddha has no such limitations. No such thing as fixed energy.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Jeff