V is for Vegetable

[dust]

A thread for discussion of diet, lifestyle, and the wild world with the condition that participants 'keep an open mind' regarding veganism/vegetarianism/plant-based living.

 

I'm not a vegan -- one day, probably -- but I do agree with the basic arguments for veganism with regard to human health, environmental concerns, and unnecessary suffering of animals. Or, to look at it another way, I have not encountered a good argument against veganism. ("Derrrr bacon taste good!" is not a good argument; human bacon probably taste good too but nobody's arguing for that.)

 

Evidence for these arguments can be forthcoming if anyone feels like participating in the topic. First I'll just start with this:

 

 

Many, including myself for a long time, have been under the assumption that eating meat is 'natural' (whatever that means) and that humans need dead animals to be healthy. Diets like the 'Paleo diet' operate strictly under this assumption, recommending that, to eat like a paleolithic person, one must consume a lot of meat and eggs and green veg but no legumes or grains or starches.

 

Leaving aside questions such as "Why is the paleolithic diet worth imitating? Were humans actually healthy back then? Didn't they all die at 30?" which can be answered elsewhere, we will assume for the moment that an early hominin diet offers an insight into how our bodies evolved and that if, for tens of thousands of years, it was good enough for the survival of a human living in a cave or mud hut with only the simplest tools and a struggle each day just to find the food, it is probably good enough for modern humans who have none of these limitations.

 

So, we assume that they all ate meat. We evolved from tree-dwelling chimp-like foragers into ground-striding upright hunters. And our close relatives, the neandertals, ate even more meat than us. Right?

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature21674.html

 

The hominins ate very differently, depending on their region: The calculus from the Neanderthal in the Belgian cave was full of meat such as woolly rhinoceros and wild sheep, which were available on the wide-open grasses of the steppe. The diet in Spain, on the other hand, had plenty of mushrooms, pine nuts and moss — the kind of menu you’d have in dense forest — and no detectable meat.

 

My takeaway here is that these guys ate what was available to them in their area. They didn't need meat, meat wasn't a 'natural' and intrinsic part of their diet; they ate it when it was the easiest option. And so at this point, it's worth noting that modern humans have everything available to us. And in the modern world, the easiest option is not meat. The cheapest, the least environmentally damaging, the easiest to cultivate, the most nutritious, are all plants.

[idquest]

The Paleo diet idea could be right, but people draw wrong conclusion from it. For whatever reason people assume that supermarkets full of eye rib cuts were available in stone age.

 

The main source of protein before people discovered agriculture were insects and larvae. Look at apes including chimps - they all eat insects all the time. Crickets and termites contain B12 along with protein percentage on the level of beef. In Middle East and South East Asia insects is a noticeable food source even now.

 

Messy truth? Sooner or later the main protein source for people on this planet is going to be insects again.

[dust]

Yeah, the 'official' Paleo diet has its good points, but as a whole it is outweighed by the fact that a low-meat high-legume diet is all but proven to be the best for longevity and overall health.. and for the environment... and obviously for not killing animals.

 

Not sure how I feel about insects (& arachnids?). Seems likely that the environmental impact of insect farming would be far less than that of cattle farming; and it's surely healthier too. As far as protein... some people need to think about that, but anyone like you or me, with access to whatever food we want, doesn't need to worry about protein intake. Eat a wide variety of food, enough calories, and there will be enough protein.

 

I've tried a variety of animals and their parts, including locusts, silkworm pupae, and scorpions.. the locusts were not bad.

Edited March 13, 2017 by dust

[rainbowvein]

From what I've learned and experienced, vegetarianism is an energetic preference.

 

Some people can rarely go a day without meat. Others can live without it. For some, meat is too rich, or not a virtuous food choice.

 

Vegetarianism can make you feel lighter. With that, a feeling of spaciness may also be present. Which may make a person choose to incorporate meat back in to their diet. With a well-rounded vegetarian diet, there is no reason to worry about the spacey feeling.

 

Being vegetarian might even assist you on your spiritual path. Or, be a consequence of your spiritual path.

 

[Brian]

Termites taste kinda like cinnamon, BTW, and they comprise a larger total biomass than humans do.

[dust]

Some people can rarely go a day without meat.

 

Do you mean that they physically can't live without it, or just prefer not to?

 

Heard this kind of thing before on TDB, but I've yet to hear an explanation beyond "because energy".

 

Sorry to be blunt, but other than a couple of rare illnesses (problems digesting fibrous foods or some such), I see no rational reason that a person cannot go without meat for any amount of time.

Edited March 13, 2017 by dust

[thelerner]

I'm not a veggie, but I've always had friends and kids who are.  I admire the diet, but 'because energy' some people can't stay on it.  For some as they get older the diet robs them of 'juice', they have less and get more susceptible to colds and such.  They add some meat, and they feel better, have less illness and more..vitality (there are many, undoubtedly more, stories that go the other way too).  Maybe its psychological but these are people were hard core. 

 

Probably the majority can do very well on a vegetarian diet, but since I know people who've crashed on it.  I worry that there is some sizeable minority it's not compatible with, and instead of having a little meat or fish a week, they see being meatless as a religious duty and it hurts there life quality. 

 

 

addon> fwiw just made a pot of delicious veggie minestrone soup.  The ultimate peasant garbage kitchen sink soup.

[rainbowvein]

Some people can rarely go a day without meat.

 

Do you mean that they physically can't live without it, or just prefer not to?

 

Heard this kind of thing before on TDB, but I've yet to hear an explanation beyond "because energy".

 

Sorry to be blunt, but other than a couple of rare illnesses (problems digesting fibrous foods or some such), I see no rational reason that a person cannot go without meat for any amount of time.

 

If you can separate physicality from energy, then maybe it is simply a preference.

 

However, if preferences do stem from your energy profile, then one can understand how much of a challenge it is to make new and different choices.

Edited March 13, 2017 by rainbowvein

[MooNiNite]

Been a vegetarian for a long time. I also avoid milk.

 

Avoiding meat prevents one from becoming tired and allows them to stay in concentration consistently.

The food is lighter.

That is probably the major reason I dont eat meat.

 

I have noticed my joints are a little wonky, so fish oil might be a good supplement. 

 

I might try eating raw liver though. Supposed to be amazingly nutritious..

http s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4cVFeMZI90&t=215s

Edited March 13, 2017 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

Ultimately there isnt a separation between meat and vegetables. 

 

From certain perspectives we even look like them. 

 

[AussieTrees]

Quote Dust.

I'm not a vegan -- one day, probably -- but I do agree with the basic arguments for veganism with regard to human health, environmental concerns, and unnecessary suffering of animals. Or, to look at it another way, I have not encountered a good argument against veganism. ("Derrrr bacon taste good!" is not a good argument; human bacon probably taste good too but nobody's arguing for that.)

 

Hi Dust,

 

If crops (vegetarian food) are to be grown,then at some point natural bushland needs to be cleared of trees and all vegetation,burning after bulldozing scrubland is common,killing everything native plants and animals,insects,all the way down to the microflora and micro fauna.

 

Native habitat is lost,no more nesting birds nothing but vegetarian food crops,rarely are these areas restored to a native habitat.

Then they spray,weedicide,herbicide,further polluting and corrupting the environment,even out to sea.

 

Good crops need fertiliser,produced often by extracting nitrogen from natural gas.

Good for crops,not so good for waterways of nature.

 

Yeah I have eaten veggies diet,for about two years in mid twenties,reasoning was like yourself concern for animal welfare and environmental damage.

The truth is, the realisation that food production of any sort it at a cost of displaced species and pollution to the environment.

 

Where did we go wrong?

 

We changed habits from hunter gathering to supermarket ease of getting food.

We decided to grow animals that are good to eat instead of chasing them and capture/slaughter.

 

Eat veggies that's a choice,but this does not protect the environment nor does it protect animals from abuse and loss of habitat.

[thelerner]

The truth is, the realisation that food production of any sort it at a cost of displaced species and pollution to the environment.

 

Where did we go wrong?

 

We changed habits from hunter gathering to supermarket ease of getting food.

We decided to grow animals that are good to eat instead of chasing them and capture/slaughter.

 

Eat veggies that's a choice,but this does not protect the environment nor does it protect animals from abuse and loss of habitat.

One of my first girl friends was vegetarian and inspired by the simple credo: Do the least harm.

 

In general, when all factors are added in (land, water, resources, waste),  vegetarian diet does less harm and creates less cruelty in the world then eating meat does.  Certainly in the quantities we do in the West. 

 

Not in all cases, but in total, it is imo a more ethical diet.  And without some big collapse, we're not going back to hunter/gatherer days.  (many of them were destructive enough that they had to move around)

[AussieTrees]

Duck season is approaching,rice farmers are inviting shooters to their properties for the annual cull.

Culling,is killing animals mostly to prevent crop damage.

 

Cull the galahs,cockatoos,kangaroos,wallabies,possums,rats and mice,feral pigs,goats,deer,rabbits,horses,donkeys,camels,as well as dogs,dingos and foxes,just cull them all.

 

Cause we want to eat vegetarian food,and that will create the illusion of caring for animals and the environment.

[cold]

H is for hunger.

A is for anxiety worrying about food (a Major concern to many humans, too many children, way too many children!).

P is for port ( Any port in a storm. Eat what's available, in moderation and with gratitude when ever possible.)

P is for the peaceful feeling from a full stomach (not to be confused with a stomach ache).

Y is for youch the discomfort I caused upon awakening and embracing the day destroying the spiders web as I stretched.

 

Do I buy organic food or local food?

What affects my choices?

What are my choices effect on me physically and mentally?

 

Do my prayers / intentions transform transmute my sins?

I certainly hope so!!!

 

In fact I try to act as if my life (or peace ) depends on it.

I often fail.

I awaken and embrace the new day with knowledge of my past failures, and the hope that I have learnt from them.

[thelerner]

I don't think its an illusion.  Looking at the amount of animals we slaughter, is far far far beyond what is gotten through culling or hunting.  I have no problem with those.  Hell I'm a meat eater, I like venison.  Nothing wrong with hunting. 

 

What I'm getting at is for present society, if you look at the incredible amounts of animals slaughtered yearly, the amount of wild animals hunted is minuscule.  I don't think you can justify killing 50 Billion Chickens a year (in US) because some rice farmers invite hunters to shoot ducks on there property.  Good for the rice farmers, and all farmers who protect there crops.

 

I don't think that justifies the waste, and inefficiencies, and plain cruelty in the ways billions of farmed animals are treated.  Course that makes me a bit of a hypocrite, but that's how I feel. 

 

 

I dislike militant vegetarians, but but.. I'm kinda glad they're around for balance.

[cold]

Hmm

I abhor waste! I always have!

The son of depression era children it seems to be genetic.

 

Having spent nearly fifty years in agriculture I have spent many an hour trying to get blood from a turnip.

As an airplane pilot for nearly thirty years I know better than to stretch a glide...

I don't know much, knowing what I don't know is my greatest wisdom.

 

Followed by leaving the smallest foot print possible, leave no trace take nothing but memories ...

[gendao]

I've tried a variety of animals and their parts, including locusts, silkworm pupae, and scorpions.. the locusts were not bad.

Never tried locusts, but fried scorpions tasted like hash browns.  Silkworm pupae were too gushy inside for my taste.  Never had "cinnamon" termites (sounds rather delish!), but I did try a live ant once.  Didn't have much taste to it, it was so small...  Ants are a top supplement in Chinese medicine, though.

Polyrhachis Ant are profound adaptogens that can fundamentally improve our stress response, preventing the loss of Jing to stress.

Bugs would probably be a good nutritional supplement for our diets, although they might be hard to gather in enough quantity to supply our overall caloric needs?

 

AussieTrees does have a great point about how culling invasive species could be a win-win for both people and the environment.  Wild hogs, for example, are becoming invasive everywhere and the largest ones can reach 800 lbs.  So, I'm sure just one of those could feed several families for an entire year!

And deer tend to overpopulate many areas too.  Not to mention Asian carp near the Great Lakes, Burmese pythons in Florida, etc, etc.  It would actually be GREAT if these species were widely-hunted IN THE WILD and added to dinner plates everywhere!

 

If you do go vegetarian, some nutrients you may eventually start falling short of over the long run (years) are B12 (methylcobalamin) and iron.  You can simply buy some supplements of them, though.

Edited March 14, 2017 by gendao

[AussieTrees]

Hi all,

 

We need to eat,farming produces food,not only for farmers,they feed many as well,so we can work in other fields.

Does not matter what you eat,hunted,fished,slaughtered or grown,they all have cost in suffering and pollution.

 

Cruelty is no promoted but it still happens.

Pollution from modern farming is not our goal but it still happens.

 

Be at peace with yourself and others.

Enjoy whatever you eat it is essential for life.

 

There are many problems to solve with the world experiencing the current population explosion.

Man has become the pest species,invading and defiling all continents,mmm culling?

[dust]

If crops (vegetarian food) are to be grown,then at some point natural bushland needs to be cleared of trees and all vegetation,burning after bulldozing scrubland is common,killing everything native plants and animals,insects,all the way down to the microflora and micro fauna.

...

 

Eat veggies that's a choice,but this does not protect the environment nor does it protect animals from abuse and loss of habitat.

 

I'm sorry to be so blunt again, but this is wrong.

 

It's really quite simple.

 

Crops > cows > humans

 

Crops > humans

 

Which is more efficient?

 

 

When we raise animals in large numbers, they need a LOT of food. Worldwide, 40% of grain is fed to cattle. In the USA, 70%. The USA could feed way more than their entire population with that. But instead it's fed to cows and pigs, and so much energy is wasted, and so much extra pollution is created.

 

In the extreme situation: if we just grew crops, and no livestock, overall we would need less land. We would not need to feed the cattle, and could crow a much more diverse range of crops for our own consumption. Fewer trees would be cleared, much less habitat would be destroyed.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-would-happen-if-everyone-stopped-eating-meat-a6844811.html

 

 

 

 

Duck season is approaching,rice farmers are inviting shooters to their properties for the annual cull.

Culling,is killing animals mostly to prevent crop damage.

 

Cull the galahs,cockatoos,kangaroos,wallabies,possums,rats and mice,feral pigs,goats,deer,rabbits,horses,donkeys,camels,as well as dogs,dingos and foxes,just cull them all.

 

Cause we want to eat vegetarian food,and that will create the illusion of caring for animals and the environment.

 

And species that threaten livestock don't get killed?

 

This is a condition of farming, not just farming plants.

 

And again, if we ate less/no livestock, we would use less land, and fewer animals would be killed to protect the land.

 

 

So far your position is untenable. I hope you will provide evidence for your claims.

Edited March 15, 2017 by dust

[Michael Sternbach]

I've been a vegetarian for 43 years, that is since age four. Before that, I quite enjoyed eating it; the cleaner frequenting our house even jokingly nick named me "meat tiger."

 

That was until I watched a short documentary featuring a sausage factory as part of a children show (something like 'sesame street'). I subsequently stopped eating meat and fish completely.

 

I do believe that following a vegetarian diet is preferable to reduce cruelty towards animals as well as for reasons of health and spirituality.

[liminal_luke]

 Diets like the 'Paleo diet' operate strictly under this assumption, recommending that, to eat like a paleolithic person, one must consume a lot of meat and eggs and green veg but no legumes or grains or starches.

 

 

Hi Dust,

 

I`d just like to add a sidenote about the paleo diet  It`s a very common misconception that this is necessarily a high meat diet.  Lots of people do it that way, it`s true, but there is plenty of variation among paleo eaters.  It`s possible to eat a very low meat version of paleo.  Or a seafood only version of paleo.  There are even people who attempt to eat a vegetarian paleo diet, though most would say some animal protein is important for optimal health.  

 

It`s not so different from vegetarianism: there are a lot of different approaches.  One vegetarian might eat mostly raw fruit, another a lot of rice and beans, another lots of fake meat products.  People advocating a paleo approach are similarly diverse.

Edited March 15, 2017 by liminal_luke

[AussieTrees]

quote name="dust"

 So far your position is untenable. I hope you will provide evidence for your claims.

 

Hi Dust,

 

Position tenable,no pros or cons,that's just the way it is,growing meat or crops.

 

Even in back yard veggie garden,there is need to protect plants from pests.

Slug bait,rodent bait,insecticides,as well as herbicides are all common,farming has all these plus culling after land clearing.

 

What evidence would you like?

Can you not see for yourself?

 

"If we,or hope we all become vegetarians",doesn't change anything,even the refugee Tibetan farmers relocating to India after fleeing Tibet had to come to terms with,being the cause of land clearing and burning the remnant native vegetation along what remained of the native flora and fauna,when establishing their new homes and gardens.

[Taomeow]

The Paleo diet idea could be right, but people draw wrong conclusion from it. For whatever reason people assume that supermarkets full of eye rib cuts were available in stone age.

 

The main source of protein before people discovered agriculture were insects and larvae. Look at apes including chimps - they all eat insects all the time. Crickets and termites contain B12 along with protein percentage on the level of beef. In Middle East and South East Asia insects is a noticeable food source even now.

 

Messy truth? Sooner or later the main protein source for people on this planet is going to be insects again.

 

 

Ahem...

 

We spent 400,000 years of our latest evolution chiefly in the ice ages lasting an average of 70,000 years each (quite a few of them longer) with interludes of warmer climates (interglacials) lasting an average of 10,000 years (some of them shorter).   Not many insects available, not many larvae -- to be precise, zero availability for stretches of tens of thousands of years at a time formidably exceeding in duration the stretch of our current end-of-interglacial civilization.  So the non-eating of those goodies is not a modern idea arising in a local supermarket.  We just couldn't lay our hands on them, much as we would like to, for the bulk of our developmental history as a species.  We hunted, not for what comes easy in interglacials, but for what we had to get in order to survive as a species during the ice age: not just large animals, but invariably the largest and fattest animal in the environment.  Such as the whale and the woolly mammoth.

 

I've been to a market in the Amazon rain forest.  You get there by boat only, there's no roads.  You get to meet sellers from remote villages and tribal settlements and sample their fares.  Yes, a couple of them sold grubs, skewered shish kabob style, but there was also a whole row of giant tortoises, some as big as bathtubs, and many kinds of fish and octopi and squid and a whole wild animal looking like a pig-sized rat whose meat is reportedly the tastiest on earth.  A vegetailsta shaman will observe a special diet (very complex for some of the plants they work with, way more complex than the ayahuasca diet), and someone very poor will subside on plantains and potatoes and an occasional chicken egg -- but voluntary vegetarianism invariably means a particular specific period in shamanic training with various entheogenic and magical plants, and the idea of doing it for any other reason is simply nonexistent.

 

I am planning to get back to paleo-style eating (with some individual modifications), and I can assure you that if I lived in the tundra or in the rain forest, I wouldn't shop for my meat at a local HFS as I do now, but the human brain is predominantly made of animal fat, and that's why it is so smart and can think up a way to adapt.  I have to adapt to not having any whales handy.  So, grass-fed pasture animals are my current adaptation.  

 

But not for long.  Winter is coming.       

[dust]

Hi Dust,

 

I`d just like to add a sidenote about the paleo diet  It`s a very common misconception that this is necessarily a high meat diet.  Lots of people do it that way, it`s true, but there is plenty of variation among paleo eaters.  It`s possible to eat a very low meat version of paleo.  Or a seafood only version of paleo.  There are even people who attempt to eat a vegetarian paleo diet, though most would say some animal protein is important for optimal health.  

 

It`s not so different from vegetarianism: there are a lot of different approaches.  One vegetarian might eat mostly raw fruit, another a lot of rice and beans, another lots of fake meat products.  People advocating a paleo approach are similarly diverse.

 

My mistake, then.

 

My assumption of high-meat is based on old reading about the diet. Even counting some variation, it does seem the average paleo follower eats quite a bit of meat, still?

 

I suppose this finding of "vegetarian neandertal" actually goes some way to proving both sides -- some paleolithic guys ate meat, some didn't.

 

 

 

quote name="dust"

 So far your position is untenable. I hope you will provide evidence for your claims.

 

Hi Dust,

 

Position tenable,no pros or cons,that's just the way it is,growing meat or crops.

 

Even in back yard veggie garden,there is need to protect plants from pests.

Slug bait,rodent bait,insecticides,as well as herbicides are all common,farming has all these plus culling after land clearing.

 

What evidence would you like?

Can you not see for yourself?

 

"If we,or hope we all become vegetarians",doesn't change anything,even the refugee Tibetan farmers relocating to India after fleeing Tibet had to come to terms with,being the cause of land clearing and burning the remnant native vegetation along what remained of the native flora and fauna,when establishing their new homes and gardens.

 

 

To be clear: Raising animals means more crops and therefore more pesticides and land clearing

 

I do not expect everyone to become vegan. It would be better, but I'm not so silly as to expect it. If everyone did, many problems would be fixed. But even if only a fraction did, and we were to cut down on the amount of livestock raised, the very problems you speak of would be improved. I do not expect humans to stop farming. But with less animal farming, crop farming would also become less of a problem. It's a win-win for humans and other animals

Edited March 16, 2017 by dust

[dust]

Ahem...

 

Some points to note:

 

You don't live on a tundra. You aren't an ancient human required to hunt. Your brain is not "made of" animal fat in any sense other than that you are an animal and have some fat in your brain. Fat is easily available in high quality in various plants. There is nothing the human body needs that can only be found in dead animals. You have many options available.

 

The healthiest modern people -- those with the lowest incidence of chronic disease, those who live the longest, those who live the longest with good health, and who apparently enjoy life very well -- all eat a minimal, minimal amount of meat, if any at all.