V is for Vegetable

[AussieTrees]

Native Bison Buffalo roamed North America in unimaginable numbers.

The sky's were once blackened by flocks of wild pigeons.

 

Forests with trunks many metres across covered the desirable meadows.

The seas changed colour with passing schools of fish.

 

Our sky's and oceans once pristine and pure.

Natives to the land were the only humans.

 

Things changed for the planet as man began to think and within few hundred years,man mostly to blame,alright all to blame.(women only got the vote one hundred years ago,so not to blame,"thanks mum")

Get more,get rich,cut it down,sell it,steam,coal,gas,petrol,electricity.

 

More people,less space,grow more veggies,crops,shoot the buffalo and carrier pigeon,we want grow cows,sheep.

Need somewhere to live,new estate,developer has clear it first,put in new road,gas,power,sewage,well in the western style first world.

 

Surely the apocalypse is coming,get to prepping,cause " you want to be ready,yeah and we gunna be ready."

 

The most inspiring article I have read about restoring the planet,

http://video.nationalgeographic.com.au/video/news/160602-us-elwha-river-dam-removal-restoration-vin

 

Humans,just hope we are as smart as we think we are,and kick a few more goals.

[dust]

Native Bison Buffalo roamed North America in unimaginable numbers.

The sky's were once blackened by flocks of wild pigeons.

 

Forests with trunks many metres across covered the desirable meadows.

The seas changed colour with passing schools of fish.

 

I liked your post though feel compelled to mention: yes there used to be many more species of animal, many that are extinct because of humans; we've hunted away large numbers, cleared forest and other habitat from large areas; etc -- and the majority of this is due to animal agriculture.

 

The bison that roamed the Americas many years ago were not so many as the cows you see now on farms (factory or pasture). A small fraction of North American forests have survived the USA. The land that is now used is devoted to meat and dairy more than anything else.

 

 

 

 

The red/pink is livestock and grain mostly fed to livestock; the light blue and yellow is livestock; the green is livestock and grain fed to livestock. The large majority of use is livestock-based.

 

If the livestock were no longer raised, much of that land could be allowed to return to native habitat.

 

 

An example from your own land:

 

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/ac10b566f38f2068ca25779e001c4809!OpenDocument

 

Almost two-thirds (63%) of land in Australia has been modified for human use, primarily grazing on natural vegetation.

 

Grazing accounts for just over half of all land use. Environmental issues associated with sheep and cattle grazing include habitat loss, surface soil loss, salinity, and soil and water quality issues.

 

 

http://www.agriculture.gov.au/abares/aclump/land-use

 

Grazing natural vegetation: 44.87%

Grazing modified pastures: 9.24%

Dryland cropping: 3.59%

 

It appears that the majority of harmful agricultural action has, also, been meat-based.

[Taomeow]

Some points to note:

 

You don't live on a tundra. You aren't an ancient human required to hunt. Your brain is not "made of" animal fat in any sense other than that you are an animal and have some fat in your brain. Fat is easily available in high quality in various plants. There is nothing the human body needs that can only be found in dead animals. You have many options available.

 

The healthiest modern people -- those with the lowest incidence of chronic disease, those who live the longest, those who live the longest with good health, and who apparently enjoy life very well -- all eat a minimal, minimal amount of meat, if any at all.

 

 

I don't participate in these discussions.   The only reason I posted my "Ahem..." was to respond to the assertion that insects and larvae were historically our Paleo sources of animal protein, and there's only so much junk science I can stomach in one sitting.  Have you noticed what I was actually talking about?  Probably not. 

 

That's OK.  I've paid my dues to the V party and I ain't paying another cent.   Happy trails.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

My mistake, then.

 

My assumption of high-meat is based on old reading about the diet. Even counting some variation, it does seem the average paleo follower eats quite a bit of meat, still?

 

 

I`m not really part of a paleo community (other than virtual) and have no idea how much meat the average paleo person eats. There`s a lot of hoopla about how you can eat bacon and steak with butter sauce because those are foods not commonly associated with weight loss diets -- and lots of people start any diet program to lose weight.  But I`ll bet that paleo eaters consume way more vegetables than the average person.  Most people eat a whole lot of grains (think bread and pasta) and processed food, and when you completely cut that out, well, you`ve got to eat something.  For many of us, that something is asparagus and broccoli and salad greens.

 

We`ve talked before about how vegetarians sometimes feel judged by meat eaters and meat eaters sometimes feel judged by vegetarians.  There`s plenty of judgement all round, and it`s not good for anybodies digestion.  I prefer to focus on what our different diet plans have in common -- vegetables -- rather than the meat that divides us.  Almost everyone agrees that veggies are healthy and that processed junk food is not.  If vegetarians and paleo folks came together to encourage people to eat more broccoli and drink less Coke we could start a revolution.

Edited March 16, 2017 by liminal_luke

[steviesrojas]

Been a vegetarian for about 6 months last year (June - December) because I was involved in ISKCON during that time. But after I left, I went back to eating "normally." However, I'm planning to get back into the diet because I've noticed some things that I've gained (or lost) while I was a vegetarian compared to being an omnivore.

 

Here's a list of some of them:

- Better mood.

- No body odor.

- Better sleeps at night.

- Weight loss

- Increased stamina

 

And last but definitely not the least, a moral high ground, and the ability to judge people that eat dead animals. (LOL just kidding)

 

But surely though, the pros definitely outweigh the cons, and that's why I'm working my way back to the vegetarian diet.

[MooNiNite]

I think leaving the USA can help people become more vegetarian. People in the USA eat a ridiculous amount of meat. 

 

Like every meal. 

[liminal_luke]

I think leaving the USA can help people become more vegetarian. People in the USA eat a ridiculous amount of meat. 

 

Like every meal. 

 

I know I`m tresspassing in the turnip patch like an errant aphid, but I can`t resist pointing out the not-so-hidden assumptions in the above statement.  Here are two: (1) helping people become vegetarian is a good thing, and (2) eating meat at every meal is "ridiculous."

 

Many people, myself among them, disagree with those assumptions.  I think most people are better off including some protein, some fat, and some carbohydrate in every meal.  The occasional vegetarian meal won`t hurt, but for health reasons a good deal of that protein should come from animal sources.  It doesn`t have to be beef though, and it shouldn`t be factory farmed meat.  Good sources of protein include grassfed beef, pasture-raised chickens, wild-caught salmon.  Eggs are nutritious for most, and most of the nutrition comes from the yolk.  

 

On the other hand, I also think most people --vegetarians and omnivores alike -- could benefit from eating more vegetables.  It`s not necessary to eat a great deal of meat for health, just some.  Think a big bowl of salad topped with tuna.  A warm carrot soup made with chicken stock.

 

Vegetarians largely disagree with me, I know.  If this thread is meant to be a closed-door discussion amonst Bums who already think along the same lines, I`ll bow out.  (Or allow my post to be whisked away by the OP without complaint.)  People, including myself, get very emotionally attached to our views on diet.  I doubt any minds will be changed.  I just hope we all keep in mind that there`s a great deal of controversy about this subject, even among experts, and the issues are far from settled. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by liminal_luke

[MooNiNite]

I became a vegetarian after visiting india for 2 months.

 

Sometimes immersing one's self in different cultures helps them redefine "normal."

 

And yes, I will stand by my statement that Americans eat too much meat. 

 

Out of all the countries in the world the usa ranks 8th in obesity. Meat takes a long time to digest, so it makes sense. 

[liminal_luke]

Your India trip sounds amazing, MooNiNite; Indian food is delicious!  And I agree that experiencing different cultures can open people up to new ways of thinking.

 

Not sure that America`s obesity epidemic can be blamed on the meat though. It could be the donuts.  

[Brian]

Mmmmm...

 

Doughnuts...

[liminal_luke]

Forget bacon.  Give me a big plate of dal, two baskets of garlic naan, and a mango lassi.  For dessert I`ll switch back to an American mode and go with glazed donuts.  Skinny jeans here I come!

[Mandrake]

 

The healthiest modern people -- those with the lowest incidence of chronic disease, those who live the longest, those who live the longest with good health, and who apparently enjoy life very well -- all eat a minimal, minimal amount of meat, if any at all.

 

Well, the article doesn't say minimal. I would love numbers. I happen to have grown up in a blue-zone myself, and it certainly wasn't "minimal." But overall I'm not one of those that believe in a magic pill-diet.

 

 

M

[AussieTrees]

There is a local Hare Chritna farm,every Sunday they would a feast,all vegetarian foods.

Next door there lived a whole family of followers,five kids,they taught us a lot about the vegetarian diet and cuisine.

 

The food was delightful,after the Sunday feasts and offering and blessings,everyone would sit and share the food prepared.

We only went a few times,but the neighbors would bring us takeaway packs home to us,they told me that if I fed any scraps to the animals they would be born human in the next life.So I just couldn't resist feeding scraps to the chickens and then rooster,haha.

[cold]

The chickens we had were free range, and when the locust's emerged they acted like it was manna direct from heaven.

They weren't in a desert and as far as I know were of South American heritage not Middle Eastern, but a miracle is a miracle.

Rather than scratch peck, peck, it was gobble, gobble, gobble!

You could see them gain weight (almost daily)!

[thelerner]

It'd be great to raise chickens for eggs.  Sadly there are restrictions on the suburb I live at.  I loved walking around Key West and seeing proud roosters and chicks strutting around, colorful as parrots. 

[Taomeow]

It'd be great to raise chickens for eggs.  Sadly there are restrictions on the suburb I live at.  I loved walking around Key West and seeing proud roosters and chicks strutting around, colorful as parrots. 

 

Chickens are also very efficient mousers.  

 

 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

Good to know they earn there keep, from locust to mice, to fertilizer production.    Is there anything they can't do?

 

Each month I (technically my $25) sends out a flock of chickens through heifer.org to some family worldwide.   I've been doing it for years.  The hope is the family gets eggs to eat and when there flock gets larger, is asked to share new chicks with another family.  Thus the old saying, Teach a man to fish, his wife will rarely ever see him, give him chickens and the family gets eggs. 

[Brian]

Good to know they earn there keep, from locust to mice, to fertilizer production. Is there anything they can't do?

 

Each month I (technically my $25) sends out a flock of chickens through heifer.org to some family worldwide. I've been doing it for years. The hope is the family gets eggs and when there flock gets larger, is asked to share new chicks with another family. Thus the old saying, Teach a man to fish, his wife will rarely ever see him, give him chickens and the family gets eggs.

I like heifer.org, too.

 

EDIT: FWIW, chickens have lousy handwriting.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Brian

[Taomeow]

I like heifer.org, too.

 

EDIT: FWIW, chickens have lousy handwriting.

 

That's because they don't practice calligraphy.  But humans who do have superb handwriting even if their  bazi has Roosters.  They also excel at marksmanship.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Taomeow

[InfinityLooper]

I've been adhering to a strict plant based diet, zero meat, zero animal products, for about 6 months now and have been noticing many benefits: weight loss, higher energy, clearer mental focus, etc. Just reporting my experience and not saying others would experience same. Anyway, at work the other day, I overheard a co-worker talking about how protein from meat which our ancestors consumed contributed to brain development and modern man wouldn't be what it is today if we didn't eat meat. I thought he was going a little off the rails here and wanted to interject, but I thought better of it. Even if there is truth to this, once we reach the point of higher development/evolution/modern society where we are making conscious decisions about what we put into our bodies, we can simply choose to "do the least harm", as another member here eloquently put it, to ourselves, to the planet, to other sentient beings, etc. My co-worker's comments did make me want to look into it a little further and here's an interesting article on the subject.

 

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter

[Brian]

That's because they don't practice calligraphy. But humans who do have superb handwriting even if their bazi has Roosters. They also excel at marksmanship.

My handwriting is atrocious but my marksmanship isn't. Of course​, you know my chart...

[dust]

I don't participate in these discussions.   The only reason I posted my "Ahem..." was to respond to the assertion that insects and larvae were historically our Paleo sources of animal protein, and there's only so much junk science I can stomach in one sitting.  Have you noticed what I was actually talking about?  Probably not.

 

Your post contained various beliefs that, I believe, need to be shown to be wrong. And under this topic, in particular, it is important to address such bizarre statements as "the human brain is predominantly made of animal fat"

 

 

If vegetarians and paleo folks came together to encourage people to eat more broccoli and drink less Coke we could start a revolution.

 

The revolution would not be good enough.

 

 

Many people, myself among them, disagree with those assumptions.  I think most people are better off including some protein, some fat, and some carbohydrate in every meal.  The occasional vegetarian meal won`t hurt, but for health reasons a good deal of that protein should come from animal sources.

 

WHY?!

 

Any solid scientific literature that proves this claim?

 

Here are some that don't:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27479196

High animal protein intake was positively associated with cardiovascular mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with all-cause and cardiovascular mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source.

 

 

Yes, I agree with you that we all need proteins, fats, and carbs. This is not debatable, it's as true and accepted as anything. But it has little to do with eating meat. I get a lot of protein and fat. A LOT. A really really big lot. And none of it comes from dead animals...

 

 

Vegetarians largely disagree with me, I know.  If this thread is meant to be a closed-door discussion amonst Bums who already think along the same lines, I`ll bow out.  (Or allow my post to be whisked away by the OP without complaint.)  People, including myself, get very emotionally attached to our views on diet.  I doubt any minds will be changed.  I just hope we all keep in mind that there`s a great deal of controversy about this subject, even among experts, and the issues are far from settled. 

 

It's for open-minded discussion leaning towards vegetarianism.

 

There are clearly a bunch of people here who do not have any kind of open mind regarding a no-dead-animal diet, and despite my plea in the OP, there's obviously no way to make you all keep an open mind. Scientific consensus obviously doesn't work to convince people. You just repeatedly claim that the issue isn't settled...even though it is. Even though the data regarding health, environment, and not being cruel to animals overwhelmingly supports not eating meat.

 

So.. I'm at a loss. Deleting posts won't help. I will reserve that for anyone doing a Trump and repeatedly making false claims in the face of evidence.

Edited April 4, 2017 by dust

[dust]

Well, the article doesn't say minimal. I would love numbers. I happen to have grown up in a blue-zone myself, and it certainly wasn't "minimal."

 

Well, scanning it again, it says that the trend is "a plant-based diet", which suggests a minimal amount of meat. Either way, any other article you might read about the Blue Zones will agree that the meat consumption is minimal, even if not using that exact wording.

 

Where did you grow up? Not to pry into your personal life, but if you are going to make that claim and have it taken seriously, you're going to need to provide something more than "I lived there and I say so"...

 

I haven't been to any of these places, but everything I have read about them suggests that they do not eat much meat. Either way, it's easy to find information oneself if one is so inclined. I think the reason many people don't, that almost nobody is talking about this, is because they don't want to. They want to keep their head in the sand.

 

 

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/the-seventh-day-adventist-position-statement-on-vegetarian-diets

 

The vegetarian diet recommended by Seventh-day Adventists includes the generous use of whole grain breads, cereals and pastas, a liberal use of fresh vegetables and fruits, a moderate use of legumes, nuts, seeds. It can also include low fat dairy products such as milk, yogurt and cheeses and eggs. It is best to avoid high saturated fat and cholesterol foods such as: beef, lamb, pork, chicken, fish and seafood. Coffee, tea and alcoholic beverages provide few nutrients and may interfere with the absorption of essential nutrients.

 

Has there been any research?

 

Since 1954 more than 250 articles have been published in scientific journals on the Seventh-day Adventist lifestyle and health. In the 1960s, Loma Linda University, in cooperation with the National Cancer Institute, began to study the health of SDAs. Later, in the 1970s and 1980s, data on the Seventh-day Adventist lifestyle was collected and analyzed under contract with the National Institutes of Health.

 

SDAs in general, have 50% less risk of heart disease, certain types of cancers, strokes, and diabetes. More specifically, recent data suggests that vegetarian men under 40 can expect to live more than eight years longer and women more than seven years longer then the general population. SDA vegetarian men live more than three years longer than SDA men who eat meat.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11434797

 

California Adventists have higher life expectancies at the age of 30 years than other white Californians by 7.28 years (95% confidence interval, 6.59-7.97 years) in men and by 4.42 years (95% confidence interval, 3.96-4.88 years) in women, giving them perhaps the highest life expectancy of any formally described population.

[dust]

Link dump

 

(Pertaining to: eating meat / animal agriculture / overfishing is very bad for the environment)

 

 

Worldwatch Report:

http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock%20and%20Climate%20Change.pdf

FAO report:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

25% Land Carbon Sequestration by Amazon:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/11/151124-paris-climate-talks-forest-carbon-amazon-congo/

70% of Amazon Destruction from Livestock:
https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/handle/10986/15060

Vegan diet lowest carbon footprint:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-014-1169-1

30% of land and 1/3 of freshwater used by livestock:
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/52/20888.full

"Almost 50 percent of the grains produced in the world are fed to livestock"

http://www.fao.org/docrep/v8180t/v8180t07.htm

39 billion humans worth of solid waste each year in the US alone:

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1999/rc99205.pdf

48% of the carbon sequestered in the ocean:
https://science.nasa.gov/earth-science/oceanography/ocean-earth-system/ocean-carbon-cycle

Killing whales prevents sequestration study:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/277/1699/3527

Livestock leading cause of species extinction study:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969715303697

Edited April 5, 2017 by dust

[liminal_luke]

 

WHY?!

 

Any solid scientific literature that proves this claim?

 

Here are some that don't:

 

It's for open-minded discussion leaning towards vegetarianism.

 

There are clearly a bunch of people here who do not have any kind of open mind regarding a no-dead-animal diet, and despite my plea in the OP, there's obviously no way to make you all keep an open mind. Scientific consensus obviously doesn't work to convince people. You just repeatedly claim that the issue isn't settled...even though it is. Even though the data regarding health, environment, and not being cruel to animals overwhelmingly supports not eating meat.

 

So.. I'm at a loss. Deleting posts won't help. I will reserve that for anyone doing a Trump and repeatedly making false claims in the face of evidence.

 

Why eat meat?  For the nutrtion.  Here`s an article that explains some of the nutritional benefits of meat eating.  

 

https://paleoleap.com/meat-protein/

 

Here`s a link specifically about the health benifits of the much maligned "red meat."

 

https://chriskresser.com/red-meat-it-does-a-body-good/

 

I personally believe that different people need different things, and we`re all better off tuning into our own bodies.  For some, a vegetarian diet may indeed be useful or, at least, OK.  But I believe that most people are nutritionally better off with at least some animal products.  Of course quality matters; I`m not taking processed bologna.  Grass fed beef.  Wild salmon.  Eggs from free-range chickens.

 

These aren`t scientific studies, just articles from the popular literature.  But I think it shows that there are intelligent knowledgable people who don`t toe the vegetarian line.  It`s far from a settled question.  

Edited April 7, 2017 by liminal_luke