Jing and Qi transformation from which to which?

[Fire Dragon]

Hello all

 

From the article in the compression discusison: http://www.chikung.com/magazine.html

 

 

"For us, Chi is the energy source, Jing is the power, and Chi Kung is the method of transformation."

 

Gary J Cluman describes qigong as a way to transform

qi into jing. And in this way develop power.

 

 

 

But many traditions describe the process differently. Develop Jing transform it into Qi and then the Qi into Shen. (White tigress/Universal tao (I think).

 

Why are there a difference in the descripion of what you really do?

 

My own conclusion is that qigong is realy to develop all three of them to a high level. But what then about the meaning of transformation. Perhaps it's other things you need to develop with the transformations in an alchemic way.

 

Any ideas about this basic theme from u tao bums's

 

 

Sincerely F D

[.broken.]

Hello all

 

From the article in the compression discusison: http://www.chikung.com/magazine.html

"For us, Chi is the energy source, Jing is the power, and Chi Kung is the method of transformation."

 

Gary J Cluman describes qigong as a way to transform

qi into jing. And in this way develop power.

But many traditions describe the process differently. Develop Jing transform it into Qi and then the Qi into Shen. (White tigress/Universal tao (I think).

 

Why are there a difference in the descripion of what you really do?

 

My own conclusion is that qigong is realy to develop all three of them to a high level. But what then about the meaning of transformation. Perhaps it's other things you need to develop with the transformations in an alchemic way.

 

Any ideas about this basic theme from u tao bums's

Sincerely F D

 

I think the confusion has arisen from jing being used as a word for 'power' as well as for 'essence'. Alchemically speaking, all schools of Taoism that I have read about inform of essence being turned into chi. Chi is then used in the raising of the spirit, or shen.

 

Chi is most certainly used to develop power, the method of dispersal of which is called fa jin. I, personally, have never come across jing being translated as power.

[joeblast]

the closest wetern correlation imho is that jing essence is a catalyst for bodily processes. qi converts to jing, jing to qi, qi and jing to shen.

[Taomeow]

It's been my experience that most people who throw the terms around are transforming terms into terms, words into words, is all.

 

In a normal everyday life scenario, jing spontaneously converts into qi, and qi into shen. One can enhance or speed up or slow down this process via qigong, taiji and other non-alchemical practices. In the alchemical process, one can go backward, against the flow, and convert shen into qi and qi into jing. There's no non-alchemical processes that convert qi into jing. Think of it this way. A gardener who facilitates the growth of a seed into a tree, tending to it, watering, pruning, fertilizing, etc., is converting its jing into qi under the most favorable conditions. However, even with the best care he can't convert the tree back into the seed. Now a gardener who can get the tree to contract into a seed is indeed converting qi into jing. The former is a master; the latter, a wizard. Jing-to-qi conversions are ordinary processes that can, however, take place at a low, medium, or high level of mastery or intent. Qi-to-jing conversions are magical processes that involve a measure of control over destiny, time, and even tao. Whoever can convert qi to jing is playing with gods in their playground.

[宁]

the terms are defined by the context

[Taiji Bum]

Like .broken said it confuses people because the word jing is used for both essence and power.

 

In my experience:

You get external qi from breathing, food and external qi converts into internal essence "jing".

Then internal essence "jing" transforms into internal "qi".

Internal "qi" can transform into external power as "jing" or...

Internal qi can transform into "shen" or internal power

 

jing= essence

qi= internal energy

jing= external power

shen= internal power

[Taomeow]

The trouble with terms, Little1 et al, is that they "transform" (or should I say distort) time-sensitive processes into time-insensitive definitions. Jing, qi and shen are not nouns, not definitions -- they are descriptions of particular types of time and events associated with this kind of time. Western minds, as well as thoroughly Westernized in their cognitive practice modern Chinese ones, invariably have trouble grasping them and can't be blamed for it -- the language of our discourse is time-insensitive, things are named "once and for all" -- whereas no such once-and-for-all things exist in reality. The best time-sensitive language I know is the I Ching (not the static version that you can read but the dynamic one, the movement of the lines obtained when you introduce a time "prhaze" by throwing the coins or dividing yarrow stalks.) To understand the core notions of taoism, one can't use ANY static language. One has to introduce practice -- otherwise it all, as Alan Watts put it, boils down to "studying birdsong from a collection of stuffed nightingales."

 

Some of my musings on jing from an alchemist's perspective can be found here if anyone is interested:

 

http://www.skymountain.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=831

[Andrei]

I am not sure that is the same word, maybe it is a different character with different pronunciation, but definitely they are words with totally different meaning

 

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordl...le&audio=on

[Taomeow]

I am not sure that is the same word, maybe it is a different character with different pronunciation, but definitely they are words with totally different meaning

 

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordl...le&audio=on

 

 

Keep in mind that Chinese words have different tones. We're talking first tone jīng (精; essence), which can (but shouldn't) be confused with a few related and a few unrelated words also of the first tone. Once you know both the character and the pronunciation, you don't confuse it (as martialists and qigongsters occasionally do) with a related but distinctly different word that means "power," jin, or some such.

[Fire Dragon]

Thanks all

 

This was much helpful. Interesting about Jing and time and love! I will think more about that consept.

 

 

Sincerely F D

[林愛偉]

I think the confusion has arisen from jing being used as a word for 'power' as well as for 'essence'. Alchemically speaking, all schools of Taoism that I have read about inform of essence being turned into chi. Chi is then used in the raising of the spirit, or shen.

 

Chi is most certainly used to develop power, the method of dispersal of which is called fa jin. I, personally, have never come across jing being translated as power.

 

 

Jing , Qi, Shen. Jing hua Qi. Qi hua Shen. Shen huan Xu. = San Hua Jv Ding.

 

Jing changes to Qi. Qi changes to Shen. Replace weakness(xu) with Shen. Once this is complete, one has completed all three Jing Qi Shen, they all transform to complete the transformation of each other, and rise to the top of the head; Ding= top.

 

Yet, it also refers to the cultivation of Ren Mai, Du Mai, and Zhong Mai. Zhong Mai (middle channel) is the channel going directly from the hui yin to the bai hui, and it is inside the body, in the middle of it, as a straight line up and down.

 

After much cultivation, energy doesn't only flow from back to front, but in all directions once these three channels have been cultivated extensively.

 

San Hua Jv Ding.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited December 21, 2007 by 林愛偉

[onebir]

Keep in mind that Chinese words have different tones. We're talking first tone jīng (精; essence), which can (but shouldn't) be confused with a few related and a few unrelated words also of the first tone. Once you know both the character and the pronunciation, you don't confuse it (as martialists and qigongsters occasionally do) with a related but distinctly different word that means "power," jin, or some such.

 

I think there's even a different pronounciation for the words at the root of the confusion::

jing1 = 精 = essence (or semen - 精液)

jin4 = 劲 = strength/power (as in mo1jin4 - 摸劲, small movements in yiquan zhan zhuang, aka 'feeling for strength/power' ie whole body connection, or fa1jin4 发劲 - emitting strength/power)

 

As people have said above, in the alchemical systems, it's jing1->qi4->shen1.

 

I don't think the martial arts systems are so interested in shen1. Once you've developed qi4, they see its main advantage is perceived to be physical power (jin4) - which you can emit suddenly (fa1jin4).

 

(Otherwise, when martial artists fajing, they could be emitting semen. Messy business, fighting )

[Taomeow]

I think there's even a different pronounciation for the words at the root of the confusion::

jing1 = 精 = essence (or semen - 精液)

jin4 = 劲 = strength/power (as in mo1jin4 - 摸劲, small movements in yiquan zhan zhuang, aka 'feeling for strength/power' ie whole body connection, or fa1jin4 发劲 - emitting strength/power)

 

As people have said above, in the alchemical systems, it's jing1->qi4->shen1.

 

I don't think the martial arts systems are so interested in shen1. Once you've developed qi4, they see its main advantage is perceived to be physical power (jin4) - which you can emit suddenly (fa1jin4).

 

(Otherwise, when martial artists fajing, they could be emitting semen. Messy business, fighting )

 

Of course there's no confusion if one cultivates jing, qi and shen. How could I confuse jing with jin when I know my jing and know that I have only one jing, the one and only... but many, many different jins and many ways to fajin. You can fajin as a "squirt," by the way -- if you're packed with qi under pressure like a water balloon, anyone just pokes you and your jin squirts out spontaneously -- indeed, you don't have to use your shen, nor even your yi, for this to happen. Or you can use a deliberate there-and-back jin -- lightning fast, as though touching a red hot iron. Or you can suddenly release a coiled spring. And so on. Many jins, one jing. Rule of thumb so as to avoid confusion:

jin, power, is derived from qi;

whereas jing, essence (or, to use a better translation, vitality), is what qi is derived from.

[seadog]

Of course there's no confusion if one cultivates jing, qi and shen. How could I confuse jing with jin when I know my jing and know that I have only one jing, the one and only... but many, many different jins and many ways to fajin. You can fajin as a "squirt," by the way -- if you're packed with qi under pressure like a water balloon, anyone just pokes you and your jin squirts out spontaneously -- indeed, you don't have to use your shen, nor even your yi, for this to happen. Or you can use a deliberate there-and-back jin -- lightning fast, as though touching a red hot iron. Or you can suddenly release a coiled spring. And so on. Many jins, one jing. Rule of thumb so as to avoid confusion:

jin, power, is derived from qi;

whereas jing, essence (or, to use a better translation, vitality), is what qi is derived from.

I agree.In traditional chinese medicine jing is the foundation on which chi is built.jing is attributed to the kidneys, in tcm kidneys govern the essence.It is traditionally beleived that after the age of forty ones kidney essence or jing begins to subside.This process can be slowed or the kidneys essence can be benifitted by moxibustion of the key points st36,cv6,gv4.on a daily basis.

according to tcm jing has two sources pre heaven and post heaven.One is from your parents,the other is from what you acquire-i.e food,water,air.

The quality of ones chi is directly related to the quality of ones jing,and the quality of ones shen is dependented on the foundation of jing and chi.

[freeform]

Taomeow, as always you're stimulating some very interesting thoughts.

 

I wanted to ask you your oppinion on this:

 

we consider jing in amounts - you have a finite amount that you use/burn up etc. But as always when using a fuel or power source there is the consideration of efficiency. There are vehicles that can run more than 200 miles per gallon, and there are some that only do a few miles per gallon. So the simple model of having x amount of jing equating with y amount of 'vitality' or lifeforce or whatever becomes obsolete...

 

So there is efficiency in use (i suspect qi gong makes your body more efficient at using jing) and then there is the paradigm shift, where if you get deeper into jing a complete transformation occurs - the rules kind of change - like with homeopathy or nuclear fusion. where with a tiny amount of the raw fuel you can create incredible amounts of energy.

 

not sure what my question is but maybe you can pick up my train of thought..?

 

(lol as I typed 'train of thought', a train rode past my office window, on a very rarely used train line)

[gendao]

jing1 = 精 = essence (or semen - 精液)

jin4 = 劲 = strength/power (as in mo1jin4 - 摸劲, small movements in yiquan zhan zhuang, aka 'feeling for strength/power' ie whole body connection, or fa1jin4 发劲 - emitting strength/power)

 

As people have said above, in the alchemical systems, it's jing1->qi4->shen1.

 

I don't think the martial arts systems are so interested in shen1. Once you've developed qi4, they see its main advantage is perceived to be physical power (jin4) - which you can emit suddenly (fa1jin4).

Great clarification.

 

Aside from the tones, "jing" and "jin" are also pronounced slightly differently (hence the different sp) - although do sound very similar.

 

And for martial artists, their goal is probably more jing1->qi4->jin4.

Rule of thumb so as to avoid confusion:

jin, power, is derived from qi;

whereas jing, essence (or, to use a better translation, vitality), is what qi is derived from.

Bingo! Edited December 23, 2007 by vortex

[Taomeow]

Taomeow, as always you're stimulating some very interesting thoughts.

 

I wanted to ask you your oppinion on this:

 

we consider jing in amounts - you have a finite amount that you use/burn up etc. But as always when using a fuel or power source there is the consideration of efficiency. There are vehicles that can run more than 200 miles per gallon, and there are some that only do a few miles per gallon. So the simple model of having x amount of jing equating with y amount of 'vitality' or lifeforce or whatever becomes obsolete...

 

So there is efficiency in use (i suspect qi gong makes your body more efficient at using jing) and then there is the paradigm shift, where if you get deeper into jing a complete transformation occurs - the rules kind of change - like with homeopathy or nuclear fusion. where with a tiny amount of the raw fuel you can create incredible amounts of energy.

 

not sure what my question is but maybe you can pick up my train of thought..?

 

(lol as I typed 'train of thought', a train rode past my office window, on a very rarely used train line)

If your question is whether I agree with your take on efficiency of jing use making or breaking a life -- my answer is, yes.

 

The best thing to do is to get plenty from mom and dad to begin with. One reason jing is so difficult to control is that it's not YOUR doing, the amount and quality you have. It's the hand you've been dealt. But then, one can play a good hand poorly, and by the same token, one can play a poor hand well... how we play our jing matters.

 

Pretty much everything we do from the moment we're born dips into jing, but some things burn it like there's no tomorrow while others conserve it and a rare few replenish it. (No, not food-water-air, these replenish postnatal jing known as qi, here's another potential confusion point... postnatal, Later Heaven jing, is qi. Jing proper is prenatal, Earlier Heaven jing. You can replenish your postnatal jing, aka qi, with food-water-air-light-darkness-pracitce-freedom-purpose-love. However, you can only replenish your prenatal jing with some concoctions that communicate with it -- talking straight to your DNA -- and internal-alchemical practices.)

 

Freeform, no matter where I lived, I've almost always lived close to a train station, for some reason. Perhaps a "train of thought" is something one learns from a train -- linear thought, step-by-step thought? -- 'cause mine are not "naturally" like that, so a train might be a learning tool that some railway spirit sends our way when that's what we need to learn?... just a thought on a train... no wait, there's also a song I like, by Phish:

home on a train,

why'd you send my monkey on a train?

The day that you've arrived

my sleeping monkey is revived

but you sent him home on a train!

 

I don't know where this train is going, so I better stop...

[宁]

thank you 'meow

[seadog]

Postnatal jing (hou-tian-zhi-jing) is the second source and aspect of jing.It is derived from the purified parts of ingested food.The posnatal jing constantly adds vitality to the prenatal jing,they comprise the overall jing of the body.Ted J.Kaptchuk.The web that has no weaver.

 

"Original essence is the fountainhead and root of your life.As you absorb the jing of food and air,you convert their jings into qi to supply your bodys need."Qigong meditation DR Yang,Jwing-Ming

 

Jing is restored,replenished, and accumulated by regulating the body through the practes of fasing,ingesting herbs,maintaining a certain diet and exercises.Master li ching-yuan (reported to have lived to 250 years)

 

The chinese character for jing is comprised of the main radical mi,which symboliizes uncooked rice.It also contains the radical sheng,which holds the meanings of life and birth.Lastly the radical tan is employed meaning essence of life.This sequence of radical which comprise the jing, clearly illustrate the dual products of pre and post natal jing.

[onebir]

The chinese character for jing is comprised of the main radical mi,which symboliizes uncooked rice.It also contains the radical sheng,which holds the meanings of life and birth.Lastly the radical tan is employed meaning essence of life.This sequence of radical which comprise the jing, clearly illustrate the dual products of pre and post natal jing.

 

That's an interesting interpretation of the character, but probably doesn't reflect its etymology. According to zhongwen.com, 精 is a sound-meaning character, with the meaning coming from rice (米 - perhaps because alcohol, 酒精, a kind of essence, was distilled from rice?) and the sound from 青 (now pronounced qing1, but pronounciations have changed a bit over the last few thousand years)

 

So attributing meanings to the upper & lower halves of the 青 element is a bit of a stretch; meaning-meaning characters only seem to have two parts - as far as I can remember.

 

Having said though the Zhongwen.com etymologies are based on the 2,200 year old Shuowen Jiezi and "subsequent research by traditional etymologists", they aren't definitive.

[Taomeow]

Postnatal jing (hou-tian-zhi-jing) is the second source and aspect of jing.It is derived from the purified parts of ingested food.The posnatal jing constantly adds vitality to the prenatal jing,they comprise the overall jing of the body.Ted J.Kaptchuk.The web that has no weaver.

 

"Original essence is the fountainhead and root of your life.As you absorb the jing of food and air,you convert their jings into qi to supply your bodys need."Qigong meditation DR Yang,Jwing-Ming

 

Jing is restored,replenished, and accumulated by regulating the body through the practes of fasing,ingesting herbs,maintaining a certain diet and exercises.Master li ching-yuan (reported to have lived to 250 years)

 

The chinese character for jing is comprised of the main radical mi,which symboliizes uncooked rice.It also contains the radical sheng,which holds the meanings of life and birth.Lastly the radical tan is employed meaning essence of life.This sequence of radical which comprise the jing, clearly illustrate the dual products of pre and post natal jing.

 

Well... trimming quotes just so that they fit the argument of one's choice is a method whereby anyone can prove anything. However, Kaptchuk, in the same paragraph you trim-quoted, asserts that "Postnatal Essence allows for modification of Prenatal Essence." He never asserts that it "replenishes" Prenatal Essence anywhere in the book. That's because "modify" and "replenish" are not the same thing at all! The page you've been looking at continues with a famous quote from the Nei Jing, by the way, which links jing to the one and only real player in its "amount": time. Check it out, see if it has anything to say about "maintaing a certain diet and exercise." (Aside from The Web/No Weaver, the other two quotes are unfortunate profanations -- or else poor translations.)

 

I submit that jing can't be understood without understanding taoist cosmology, and taoist cosmology can't be understood without understanding time, timing, timeliness... There's no non-classical book that "got it right" that I'm aware of. And the classical ones assert exactly what I said...

[宁]

will you please be a darling and refer to some of the classical you are referring to

 

the timing reffers the same to practicioners and nonpracticioners?

 

what is time?

 

i guess i should ask what time is (it)

[seadog]

Well... trimming quotes just so that they fit the argument of one's choice is a method whereby anyone can prove anything. However, Kaptchuk, in the same paragraph you trim-quoted, asserts that "Postnatal Essence allows for modification of Prenatal Essence." He never asserts that it "replenishes" Prenatal Essence anywhere in the book. That's because "modify" and "replenish" are not the same thing at all! The page you've been looking at continues with a famous quote from the Nei Jing, by the way, which links jing to the one and only real player in its "amount": time. Check it out, see if it has anything to say about "maintaing a certain diet and exercise." (Aside from The Web/No Weaver, the other two quotes are unfortunate profanations -- or else poor translations.)

 

I submit that jing can't be understood without understanding taoist cosmology, and taoist cosmology can't be understood without understanding time, timing, timeliness... There's no non-classical book that "got it right" that I'm aware of. And the classical ones assert exactly what I said...

Hmmm

First off I'am not trying to fit an argument of my choice or anyone elses, nor am I trying to prove anything.I'am simply curious.

We must have different copies of Kaptchuk book because I can't find the your quote above"Postnatal Essence allows for modification of prenatal essence."

Agreed that Nei Jing quote only speaks of jing in terms of amount and time.

Following the Nei Jing quote Kaptchuk states the following.

"Qi helps transform food into Postnatal Jing,thereby maintaining and expanding that life.

As for the other quotes they are both by highly respected teachers.And I have no reason to doubt them.

 

From my understanding, Jing is the concept of time as it pertains to the material world. The process of birth growth maturation decline and death.This is a circular path,the whole from which the foudations of all life run their course.

Do you beleive that there is no thing called postnatal Jing?

One teacher I had stated that what your parents gave you, is all you got, and the best you can do is maintenance.

Yet another believed, that what we put into our mouth and eyes and ears can indeed replenish or destroy our prenatal jing.

 

This discrepancy seems to to be at the heart of what your stating.

No doubt you would have to agree that the term prenatal jing does figure in current tcm and taoist literature.As to its correctness-well I look forward to your reply.

[Taomeow]

will you please be a darling and refer to some of the classical you are referring to

 

the timing reffers the same to practicioners and nonpracticioners?

 

what is time?

 

i guess i should ask what time is (it)

 

 

Little1, I don't know what you know! -- if I were to assume that you want something "from scratch," not that I'm assuming it mind you, , I would recommend meditating a bit (or better a lot) on Hetu, Luoshu, the circular I Ching, and studying a couple of good versions of the linear I Ching and Ta Chuan and the Ten Wings for a foundation in taoist cosmology. If you want something that pertains to jing specifically -- The Yellow Emperor's Classic is a good starting point. If you want a good intro to alchemical literature, I suggest The Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu. If you want more... of course there's lots more. But a good start would be, imo, to just look and look and look at the circular I Ching -- till you see how tao procreates. Till you "see" jing. Maybe it's not the best method but that's how I "got it" -- I mean the part that I got from printed visual aids. There's other ways to "get it" of course. To me, jing is one of the absolutely greatest fascinations in the whole taoist deal. Everything is connected to it... the "immortal fetus" is a manifestation, the lotus pose is a tool... the shape of the miao tao, the mysterious border between yin and yang, is a signature. (Mona Lisa has this line between her lips, hence the mystery of her smile... The pagoda roofs follow this line, and the sea horses, one of the few food sources for replenishing jing, ditto... )

 

"Time" is different for practitioners and non-practitioners. For non-practitioners, it is pretty straightforward. For practitioners... well, it depends on the practice. Alchemists of some schools reverse the sequence and go back, shen to qi to jing -- and this is only possible with a measure of control of time.

 

The "changes" of the I Ching, the word itself -- it's originally a picture of a chameleon (not lizard, as modern sources usually assert). A chameleon is a good metaphor for the kind of changes jing is the root of: unlimited modifications of the outward manifestations which do not change anything about the essence except its outermost, most visible yet least "essential" layer. It is actually mind-blowing... jing is nearly everything you are plus absolutely everything you were before you were born -- how can anyone control it without controlling "everything?" A master of jing is a master who "roams the root of Heaven and Earth." Look and look at the Circular I Ching, see if you see what I mean...

 

 

Seadog,

 

thanks for your balanced take, I felt a bit uneasy about my own wording -- I sounded harsher and more categorical than I intended, sorry.

 

My take is as in the "chameleon" above -- postnatal jing is the "color-changing" layer of the whole jing enchilada, the yang, most visible, least essential part. Jing, as we know (we do, right? ), is yin compared to qi and (of course) shen, but as there's "some yang within yin" always, that's what postnatal jing is -- know the yin-yang symbol, that little black dot on white, little white dot on black, the eye of the fish? -- so postnatal jing is that yang eye of the yin fish, it's there, but it's not what the fish (no wait, enchilada? I'm running my metaphors head on, looks like) is all about.

 

So, yes, you can "modify" the color of the chameleon with multiple environmental influences, but that's as far as the change will go. If you want to change the chameleon itself into a different species... will diet and exercise do it d'you reckon? You can overfeed it or starve it, it may grow fat or skinny... but this won't cause it to grow backward in time, nor turn into a tiger. You want to change a chameleon into a tiger, you need a different approach than just painting stripes on it...

So, OK, prenatal jing is something that is very difficult to change into a younger chameleon or a tiger or even a frog for that matter. Postnatal jing -- this you can play with, but it's a minor game. The major game is Xian Tian jing. I mean, theoretically, people can be Olympic champions, but how many do qualify in actuality?.. With Xian Tian jing, the game is Olympic level at the very least...

Edited December 24, 2007 by Taomeow

[宁]

'Meow, the book you pointed me to was, curiously, the one I had in mind when I asked...

 

The postnatal jing has a couple of aspects, does the same apply to the prenatal...

 

For me time is a repeating movement, this is the most abstract way i can think of it. Maybe "repeating" would be the inner core of it...

 

The prenatal seems to me that is more related with some type of shen, creating spirit, a tendency to manifest

 

How did you feel this prenatal jing, creative power, when you were pregnant, for example

 

You must forgive us if we get too nosey, but this seems an issue for us men that we really need to understand, and rarely we do have an opportunity to hear the take of a Woman on it

Edited December 24, 2007 by Little1