Shi Shen and Yuan Shen

[Bindi]

Yang Jing through alchemical reaction becomes Yuan Qi. Yuan Qi feeds the Yuan Shen. Yuan Qi transforms into Yuan Shen. Yuan Shen transmutes to the Void and the Void goes to the Tao.

 

Our job is to detach, to maintain stillness. This will cause Shi Shen to decrease and in fact you will begin to learn by letting go of the intelligence. You will cultivate spiritual intelligence. This healing is based on the development of the Yuan Shen. So learn material and then forget it.

 

https://www.wudangchen.com/blog/jing-qi-shen-transformation

 

We have to see shi shen clearly and detach from it, but to cultivate Yuan Shen requires Yuan Qi to be formed first? Comments?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Bindi

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Based on my understanding yuan shen can be cultivated after the work with yuan qi started, otherwise it will be only additionally wasted.

From the other side some preparations must be done on the earlier stage - as a xing normalization and harmonization in general.

Rgrds, Ilya

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Shi Shen:  the post heaven consciousness.  The consciousness that looks at things  (shi means to look at something or to see something).

Yuan Shen: the original consciousness, that which is latent and does not change.

 

Shi Shen is active and if overused makes people tired.  Staying silent and clear of mind allows us to deplete shi shen and reveal yuan shen.

 

The northern lineage focuses the most on developing yuan shen early in practice and that is why it is called the sudden realization school. Same with Chan.

[Bindi]

Shi Shen:  the post heaven consciousness.  The consciousness that looks at things  (shi means to look at something or to see something).

Yuan Shen: the original consciousness, that which is latent and does not change.

 

Shi Shen is active and if overused makes people tired.  Staying silent and clear of mind allows us to deplete shi shen and reveal yuan shen.

 

The northern lineage focuses the most on developing yuan shen early in practice and that is why it is called the sudden realization school. Same with Chan.

 

​Is there any alchemy involved in the equation "decrease Shi Shen -> increase Yuan Shen" though?

 

There is an interesting diagram associated with the page quoted above at

https://www.wudangchen.com/blog/jing-qi-shen-transformation which I can't post here as an image unfortunately, this represents just the idea of this one school though?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

The main difference between the Northern School and Chan is that it uses alchemical concepts to explain how to refine the post heaven into the pre heaven.   That method is called "first cultivate xing and then cultivate ming," because they believe that once people completely realize the pre heaven consciousness, life energy will naturally emerge.    A lot of northern practice is found in "martial fire and passive fire" where the mind is gradually tempered with the breath.  The main difference is that the early practice doesn't focus on the lower dantian, like the southern school.   This changed after the fourth generation when southern school theory was brought into quanzhen, so now most Quanzhen people who practice neidan are familiar with southern school methods.

I believe you can cultivate Dan without focusing on the lower dantian, but it will take a lot longer.

[Taoist Texts]

  focus on the lower dantian, like the southern school.    

Is there a quote to that effect?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Is there a quote to that effect?

 

劝君穷取生身处，返本还源是药王

quan jun qiong qu sheng shen chu, fan ben huan yuan shi yao wang:

 

"urge the gentleman to profoundly grasp the origin of the body.

Returning to the root and going back to the origin is the king of medicine."

 

生身处

sheng shen chu = Ming Men/Qi Hai.

 

返本还源

fan ben huan yuan =

Ben: root of the body, ie: navel

Yuan: emptiness/wuji.

 

There are other texts too, especially Huan Yuan Pian that are also from the Southern School which share the same ideas.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I'm not versed in Chinese language or terms but, to me, that sounds like keeping awareness in the middle of the head. (i.e. the cavity of original spirit in the head; explanations from embryology were given as to why this is supposed to be the real "origin" center; likewise "feeling" the origin of immortal breath was also described as saying that this is the root of the body)

 

this is also a type of practice in Nei Dan.  They practice the Zu qiao point, which is between the two eyebrows and inside slightly.  It is the point at which the ren and du meridians meet in the upper body.  The qi xue in the lower abdomen is the point where they meet (not quite, but close) in the lower body.   In classical Daoism, usually people will focus on the lower Dantian, but in some schools, especially Qian Feng Pai, people start by focusing on the Zu Qiao point.  Some schools also focus on the whole body, and some focus on the upper and lower dantian at the same time (from my research, Chen Tuan's school does this).

The southern School mainly focuses on the lower dantian and i can only think of one document that starts of with a practice called "Zhi yan" which starts with the eyes and then gradually moves the attention to the LDT and it is not a mainstream document.

Some people argue that Lu dongbin wrote secret of the golden flower, which has zu qiao practice, but I personally am not sure, since his other documents don't talk about this type of practice (his practice is considered closer to the northern school)

[awaken]

不識真鉛正祖宗

萬般作用枉施功

 

The people who don't know the real lead, the real origin

Any effort is all waste

 

The origion is not min door, not the place in our body

 

Min door is the place start our breath

 

The breath will encourage the qi

 

The qi will bring us to open Xiuang guan

 

But, if you don't know anything about the origin, the source

 

You think some place in the body is the 本 or 源 origin

 

You won't see the source forever.

 

Why?

 

It's very difficult to tell someone who don't see themselves back

 

If you chase the things outside, you can't see inside

 

I try to use the words to tell you, but I know it very hard for you to know

 

-------

The stuffs that can be awared are all not the origin.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

There are other texts too, especially Huan Yuan Pian that are also from the Southern School which share the same ideas.

存神闭息，运眉问之思.......，皆易遇而难成。

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

There are so many posts worth answering, so I have to do a few separate posts:

 

Apeiron&peiron:

t'su qiao and zu qiao are the same point.  It sounds like what you practice is similar to Chen Tuan's practice, where zu qiao and lower dantian are connected together.   It is a type of practice in Nei Dan for sure. It is a very big school.

 

 

Awaken:  you are talking about xuan guan yi qiao, but remember that that idea was not well developed until the Yaun dynasty in the book Zhong He Ji, even then nobody explained that idea very well until Huang Yuanji much later.  Even Huang Yuanji also says to focus on the lower Dan Tian in the first chapter of his book Dao De Jing Chan Wei.

 

 

不識真鉛正祖宗

 

refers to yuan jing/ming.

Ming = Yuan Jing and yuan qi.  It originates in the kidneys regardless of pre or post heaven.  Related to ancestor Qi which is originally transmitted from the mother during gestation.  

You should understand that Nei Dan has both xian and hou tian practice, especially nanzong.  If you only try to practice Xian Tian practice, you will not get the physical benefit of Neidan.  you also need to practice post heaven, and most people cannot do Neidan if they don't cultivate hou tian practice first, at least for many years.   I agree that later people should just practice pure emptiness, but at the early stages, most cannot do this.

Edited March 18, 2017 by sillybearhappyhoneyeater

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

存神闭息，运眉问之思.......，皆易遇而难成。

I completely agree.

Edited March 18, 2017 by sillybearhappyhoneyeater

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

虚心实腹义俱深，

xu xin shi fu yi zhu shen:

empty the heart, fill the belly has deep principle in its use.

只为虚心要识心。

zhi wei xu xin yao shi xin:

trying to empty the mind by first observing the mind

不若炼铅先实腹，

bu ruo lian qian xian shi fu:

is not as good as refining lead by first filling the belly.

且教守取满堂金。

qie jiao shou qu man tang jin:

and this teaches how to collect the palace full of gold.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Zhang Boduan's three biggest influences were:

Laozi

Li Quan

and Chen Xiyi.

So of course he follows their practices.

 

Actually, Texts, I agree with you because of course you are right.  Aiperon has a good teacher for sure.  Awaken is very confused because she cannot separate Ming dynasty practice from Tang and Northern Song.   Typical problem in Taiwan from my experience. They do not read enough.

[Brian]

 

For convenience...

[Mudfoot]

Fish?

[Brian]

Don't ask me! I was just trying to help by posting the image someone else had trouble with.

 

I think, though, that there is more to the story than is included in that one image (like maybe Dragon Gate and Dragon...)

Edited March 18, 2017 by Brian

[cheya]

  Probably make more sense as "Fire" ...

 

And thanks, Brian... I couldn't get that to post either.

Edited March 18, 2017 by cheya

[Taoist Texts]

不識真鉛正祖宗

萬般作用枉施功 

The people who don't know the real lead, the real origin Any effort is all waste The origion is not min door, not the place in our body 

 

People will always misunderstand alchemy as to be some kind qigong. 没有办法. Nothing doing.

[Taoist Texts]

Fish?

 

you know what they say “You give a poor man a fish and you feed him for a day. But if you teach him to sell neidan  seminars...." Its a proverb.

[Taoist Texts]

虚心实腹义俱深，

xu xin shi fu yi zhu shen:

empty the heart, fill the belly has deep principle in its use.

只为虚心要识心。

zhi wei xu xin yao shi xin:

trying to empty the mind by first observing the mind

不若炼铅先实腹，

bu ruo lian qian xian shi fu:

is not as good as refining lead by first filling the belly.

且教守取满堂金。

qie jiao shou qu man tang jin:

and this teaches how to collect the palace full of gold. 

 

Paul Crowe renders this as

 

Empty the mind and fill the belly; the meaning of this is truly profound;

simply put, to make the mind empty [you] must understand the mind.

There is nothing better than filling the belly before refining the lead;

[this] causes [one] to preserve and gather gold which fills the hall.55

 

 

 

Whereas the line 只为虚心要识心 actually means 'merely emptying mind is but a work of the knowing-heart ( knowing-spirit 识心)', i.e inadequate by itself.

 

 

〔4〕识神:识,识心。

Edited March 19, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

The point is, every major Nei Dan school except the Northern school says that you must use emptying the mind and filling the belly to 虛其心以養性，實其腹以立命；知先天一氣 (huang yuan ji, dao de jing chan wei).

 

Here are a list of quotes to support my thesis (please note I am translating on the fly, so don't expect it to be perfect).

1: Li Xiyue, Three Carts Secret Method:

凝神調息，是下手功夫。
Collecting the spirit and adjusting the breath is how to begin practice.
凝神者，是收已清之心而入其內也。
Collecting the spirit is in containing clarity in one's mind and entering into its inside.
心未清時，眼勿內閉。
Before the mind is clear, don't close the eyes inward.
先要自勸自勉，收他回來，清涼恬淡，始行收入氣穴，乃曰凝神。
First you should fortify yourself and discipline yourself, collect outward apparatus inward, quietly and clearly placid without personal aspirations.  Beginning its movement, collect it into the cavity of Qi (qi xue point).  This is collecting the spirit.
坐虛無中，不 偏不倚，即是凝神於虛。
Sitting in emptiness and nothingness, don't lean and don't rise, this is how collecting the spirit meets emptiness.

 

2: Da Cheng Jie Yao:

 

 

外无所着，内无所思，空空 洞洞，虚虚灵灵，心不得随缘而放驰也。
 

The outside affects nothing, the inside contains no thoughts, most empty, and wide open, utterly void, and completely illuminated, the mind does not follow its destiny and must stop from galloping away.
 

昔日逢师传口诀，只教凝神入气穴，正谓此也。
 

In ancient times, the teachers passed on these poems, and taught how to collect the spirit in the “Qi cave.” This is the correct way:
 

气穴即命门，正在脊骨第七节之下，脐后肾前，前七分，后三分，两肾中

间，左属水，右属火。
The “Cave of qi” is also the “life gate.” It is under the seventh vertebrae of the spine, behind the navel and in front of the kidneys. In front by seven measures and behind by three measures, in the centre between the two kidneys. Left represents water, right represents fire.

 

沈亚夫

shen ye wei:
 

性有巧拙，可以伏藏。

夫人巧拙之性，坎离之象，巧则既济，拙则未济，故伏藏於丹田。丹田者，精炁之元也。

He who has a clever and dull mind has water and fire's image. Clever means he will cross the river. Dull means he has not yet crossed. Place it in the dan tian. The dantian is the source of jing and qi.

 

There are so many documents which say exactly the same thing, at least 100 if not more.   This is a non controversial subject in Nei Dan and is the standard interpretation.  The early interpretation of the Quanzhen school is the non standard one, and it even got replaced after the fourth generation.   Focusing on emptiness and oneness, while hiding the mind in the lower dantian is the correct way of entering into Nei Dan practice from the gate of "first cultivate ming and then cultivate xing."  If people want to first cultivate Xing and then cultivate ming, they should focus on northern school methods, which is basically what Awaken is talking about.  They are two different methods of beginning practice.  In the end, either way, both of them must arrive at 收一 otherwise 丹不成

This is how my teacher was taught by Cao Zhenyang, this is how Chen Yingning taught his disciples, this is how Jiang Weiqiao taught his disciples and so on.  This is how Nei Dan works.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

btw. there was a mistake in my above post:

Chen ye wei = Chen Ye Fu. 

Sorry for the confusion.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Awaken,

 

抱歉您，我不要和您找碴了。当然我十分同意您讲的“玄关妙窍”的内容。收入先天丹法的理论对学生来说是特别重要。不过我们也要注意内丹的经文是怎么写的，而且它从什么道术原来发生的了。比如看张紫阳的悟真篇，应该清楚他的丹法从和合先后天的气结合在一起。南宗本来是一个“收黑知百”和“将心为无为”的理论方法。但这个方法是从“先有为后无为”的基础开始。我很相信萧廷之言的“上品丹法，以神为炉，以性为药，以定为火，以慧为火。中品丹法，以神为炉，以气为药，以日为火，以月为水。下品丹法，以身为炉，以气为药，以心为火，以肾为水。又有偃月炉、玉炉。”

不过，每个人的能力不一样了。基本上我还是相信内丹的方法是一层一层学习的，所以原来要主动一些基本功以后要更注意收先天性。如果是玄关一窍，或清净无为，或伏藏气学，这些入门都可。我们不要辨哪种最好，因为每个人身体的状况不一样。不同方法适合不同的人。

这个是我到底怎么想的。等您回答。

谢谢。您的关心。

[awaken]

I don't think the high level way of Dan is fit for everyone.

 

It is just for few people.

 

But people has the right to know it and not be misleads by the low level of Dan.

 

I don't think Xiuang guan is for the bigginger.

 

I have practiced for many years to know what the Xiuang guan is.

 

I think we should give people a chance to know the high level way of Dan.

 

I have thought maybe I spent too much time to tell everyone the top secret way of Dan.

 

If you are the Daoist, you should now Jin is very important.

 

When we write too much, we will hurt our Jin.

 

It is very difficult to cultivate Xiuang guan to create immortals.

 

We must spend many years for a little progress.

 

The more progress we made , the less we can keep on going.

 

心死神活

 

The ego heart die, the yuan Shen live.

 

It is very difficult to cross this.

 

Hope every Daoist practicers can walk the right way.

 

Don't waste too much time in the low level way of Dan.

 

If you only can understand the low level way, please don't attack the people who would like to share the high level.

[awaken]

 

For convenience...

Shi Shen die--> yuan Shen wake up --> void --> golden Dan ---> immortals