Realize vs Experience of SELF

[taoteching99]

This is someones explanation on the difference between 'Experience of Self' vs Authentic Self realization (as im not promoting the website or author of this article,theres no need to mention the source of it.)

 

Curious....

 

1. (What does the experience of this 'eureka ' , this 'a ha! ' (that the author mentioned) feels like? Anybody going through similar experience before?

 

2. Does the " a ha"/realization stays permanently?

 

 

 

" One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence.

 

So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views".

 

Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. "

Edited March 17, 2017 by taoteching99

[3bob]

umm, this is not the Buddhist forum.  Buddhists mostly (as far as I know) and the historic Buddha pointedly reject Atman or the Self, so you may have to check at their sub-forum.

[taoteching99]

umm, this is not the Buddhist forum. Buddhists mostly (as far as I know) and the historic Buddha pointedly reject Atman or the Self, so you may have to check at their sub-forum.

 

The article i quoted explains the difference between I Am experience vs I Am realization ,since this I Am is equivalent to the Hindus Self realization, (note : the I Am is mentioned in the article i quoted as "a ha" realization)im putting it here in Hindus section.

Edited March 16, 2017 by taoteching99

[Jeff]

Im asking abt the I Am experience/realization , equivalent to the Hindus Self realization

There is no Buddhist "I am" realization. Additionally, there is no I am in the Hindu realization of Self.

[taoteching99]

There is no Buddhist "I am" realization. Additionally, there is no I am in the Hindu realization of Self.

Yes, i agree there is no I Am in Buddhism(but some Mahayana sutras? ) , but I Am =(Hindu)Self realization

Edited March 18, 2017 by taoteching99

[3bob]

I suggest reading the Upanishads for the "Hindu" pointers, for instance there one reads that mind is not Atman.  (btw, mind is a heavily used term in Buddhism.

 

have fun... 

[dwai]

If it is an experience then it is not it. The Atman/Self is not an experience at all. It is a realization and a subtle shift in perspective. How can you experience your Self? It is not possible.

[taoteching99]

If it is an experience then it is not it. The Atman/Self is not an experience at all. It is a realization and a subtle shift in perspective. How can you experience your Self? It is not possible.

Hi,

 

because it is not an experience(since experience comes and goes),is the realization or 'shift in perspective' has 'permanency' ? In other words, someone who 'realize' the Self,say, 2 years ago, do they still has this realization now?

Edited March 17, 2017 by taoteching99

[dwai]

Hi,

 

because it is not an experience(since experience comes and goes),is the realization or 'shift in perspective' has 'permanency' ? In other words, someone who 'realize' the Self,say, 2 years ago, do they still has this realization now?

Because you have always been the Self and yes the shift in perspective has permanence.

[Spotless]

The word "perspective" is perhaps not the best choice of words.

 

It is a shift of awareness in a sense - you could be sitting looking out over a lake as "you" and "other out there" in the great beauty and suddenly - and at once - vast energies that held you to position and onesidedness fall away and massive lightness, depth, stillness, calm and strength are suddenly "your" awareness - and this does not go away. Many other facets can as well be a part of this. Oneness may have arisen prior or concurrently or afterward.

 

Authentic Awakening - "Realization"

 

It is not an Ahhh Haaa moment - the conceptual has no part in it. Mind, story and position have fallen away - Presence has emerged. Some may reglue themselves and habituate back to the illusion, the mental noise and treasured positions and even for those that do not residual groves and patterns will still be found though the energy that from time to time runs in them is not attached - the true circuits of the illusion are not there any longer (some aberrations to this exist).

 

Perspective tends to be associated with point of view such as a lawyer looking from the perspective of a person being sued and the person suing. In the case of Awakening "perspective" falls away to the emergence of Presence in silence. It is both a subtle shift and a gigantic shift.

 

Experience of Presence

 

One may have a glimpse of this as an experience - it will be a tremendous gift to see some portion of Clear Presence. Even this would not generally be an Ah Ha moment - it is nothing like an epiphany.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Spotless

[3bob]

 the original cannot be caught in or by memory, but it can and does leave a trace in memory/matrix

[dwai]

The word "perspective" is perhaps not the best choice of words.

 

It is a shift of awareness in a sense - you could be sitting looking out over a lake as "you" and "other out there" in the great beauty and suddenly - and at once - vast energies that held you to position and onesidedness fall away and massive lightness, depth, stillness, calm and strength are suddenly "your" awareness - and this does not go away. Many other facets can as well be a part of this. Oneness may have arisen prior or concurrently or afterward.

 

Authentic Awakening - "Realization"

 

It is not an Ahhh Haaa moment - the conceptual has no part in it. Mind, story and position have fallen away - Presence has emerged. Some may reglue themselves and habituate back to the illusion, the mental noise and treasured positions and even for those that do not residual groves and patterns will still be found though the energy that from time to time runs in them is not attached - the true circuits of the illusion are not there any longer (some aberrations to this exist).

 

Perspective tends to be associated with point of view such as a lawyer looking from the perspective of a person being sued and the person suing. In the case of Awakening "perspective" falls away to the emergence of Presence in silence. It is both a subtle shift and a gigantic shift.

 

Experience of Presence

 

One may have a glimpse of this as an experience - it will be a tremendous gift to see some portion of Clear Presence. Even this would not generally be an Ah Ha moment - it is nothing like an epiphany.

Is Presence an experience at all? Or is Presence the real thing with experiences appearing as past and future?

 

There is something surprisingly understated with direct realization, almost anti-climactic when juxtaposed against the romanticism that is the lore surrounding it.

[3bob]

"that" is so profoundly simple and pure that it completely blows the head off,  thus can not really be put into a neat and stated formula for said head trying to deal with the radical aftermath.

Edited March 17, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

"that" is so profoundly simple and pure that it completely blows the head off,  thus can not really be put into a neat and stated formula for said head trying to deal with the radical aftermath.

 

That's why Jnana (knowledge) is important. It could be staring someone in the face for years, and yet they suffer because their jnana is not complete.

 

I struggled for years with this, not fully understanding what is it that the contents of my mind-stream being exposed to me, meant! What it implied...

[Jeff]

That's why Jnana (knowledge) is important. It could be staring someone in the face for years, and yet they suffer because their jnana is not complete.

 

I struggled for years with this, not fully understanding what is it that the contents of my mind-stream being exposed to me, meant! What it implied...

 

 

Is there not also danger with such knowledge?  Like you have a predefined/expected answer, and so the you fit it to the situation/experience.

[Spotless]

"that" is so profoundly simple and pure that it completely blows the head off,  thus can not really be put into a neat and stated formula for said head trying to deal with the radical aftermath.

Said head does not generally try to deal with the aftermath - and it is not "blown off" but I understand what you are getting at.

If the head goes back to work trying to figure it out - presence is generally replaced by the illusion and what is left is the experience however long or brief.

[dwai]

Is there not also danger with such knowledge?  Like you have a predefined/expected answer, and so the you fit it to the situation/experience.

 

That's why practice and knowledge go hand in hand. 

 

Edit: adding more context.

 

Jnana doesn't necessarily need to come only via reading scriptures or  books. Even these exchanges on Daobums have had a profound impact on my spiritual practice (and I'm sure others will vouch for the same). Daobums is mainly Satsang (company of spiritual people) for me, as that too take us further down the path of Self-realization. Even those who don't agree with me. 

 

My arguments with many a buddha bum helped me study both aspects (Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism) in greater detail, and with more rigor.

Edited March 17, 2017 by dwai

[Jeff]

That's why practice and knowledge go hand in hand. 

 

 

My experience has been that practice naturally clears away what had been obscuring the knowledge.  Or, I never truly understood the text, until I had personally experienced/realized what it was talking about.

[Brian]

My experience has been that practice naturally clears away what had been obscuring the knowledge. Or, I never truly understood the text, until I had personally experienced/realized what it was talking about.

This is what I have found.

[neti neti]

For me the experience nearly always precedes the understanding, and I then end up being shown the text explaining what occurred after the fact. For example, dwai posted his experience of his "mind dropping down into the heart" shortly after it had occurred to me(!)  It was wonderful to read his take on it just when I was about to dismiss it all.... I was then led to Ramana Maharshi's material on the subject which I had somehow remained unaware of. Double dose!

 

There seems to be a very undeniable veil over certain texts which prevent understanding until the appointed time. I suppose the mystery makes for a more joyous discovery... first the what, and then the how.

Edited March 18, 2017 by neti neti