[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 5

[dawei]

Legge

 

5 

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be 

benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt 

with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they 

deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.

May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a 

bellows?

'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 

'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more. 

Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see; 

Your inner being guard, and keep it free. 

 

 

Lau

 

5 

Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; 

the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.

Is not the space between heaven and earth like a bellows? 

It is empty without being exhausted: 

The more it works the more comes out.

Much speech leads inevitably to silence. 

Better to hold fast to the void. 

 

 

Feng/English

 

5

Heaven and Earth are impartial; 

They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs. 

The wise are impartial; 

They see the people as straw dogs.

The space between heaven and Earth is like a bellows. 

The shape changes but not the form; 

The more it moves, the more it yields. 

More words count less. 

Hold fast to the center.

 

 

Bill Porter (Red Pine)

 

5

Heaven and Earth are heartless 

treating creatures like straw dogs

sages are heartless too

they treat people like straw dogs

between Heaven and Earth 

how like a bellows

empty but inexhaustible

each stroke produces more

talking only wastes it

better to protect what's inside

 

 

Jonathan Star

 

5

Heaven and Earth have no permanence

A man may choose one over another but to Heaven and Earth all are the same

The high, the low, the great, the small – all are given light all get a place to rest

The Sage is like Heaven and Earth

To him none are especially dear or is there anyone he disfavours

He gives and gives without condition offering his treasure to everyone

The universe is like a bellows

It stays empty yet is never exhausted

It gives out yet always brings forth more

Man is not like this

When he blows out air like a bellows he becomes exhausted

Man was not made to blow out air

He was made to sit quietly and find the truth within

 

 

[Marblehead]

I actually see three concepts spoken to in this chapter but they are loosely linked.

 

Even though Jonathan Star likely did some transliteration here I think his presentation is perhaps the most complete and descriptive.

[dust]

No idea where the first half of Star's came from. Not just linguistically. I generally don't love Red Pine's translations but he hits much closer imo.

 

What are the three ideas you see?

 

 

 

 

Comparing to the Guodian, we can see that parts of it were likely added over time. The GD says simply,

 

 

Henricks:

 

天地之间，
其猷橐龠与。
虚而不屈，
动而愈出

The space between heaven and earth -
Is it not like a bellows?
Though it is empty it does not collapse;
When put into motion it sends forth all the more.

 

 

It's preceded by 25 and followed by 16 (or, the GD versions of these chapters -- they're also somewhat different to the received). They are not directly linked on the slips, divided by markers or a new slip, but the order makes good sense; if we put 5 and 16 together,

 

 

The space between heaven and earth -
Is it not like a bellows?
Though it is empty it does not collapse;
When put into motion it sends forth all the more.

 

Take emptiness to the limit;
Cautiously guard the void.

The ten thousand things, side by side they arise;
Sitting still we await their return.
Now, the forms come forth in great numbers,
But each returns to its root.

[Marblehead]

 

What are the three ideas you see?

 

 

1.  The processes of nature.

2.  The concept of energy.

3.  Man should listen more and talk less.

[Jeff]

To me, chapter 5 says...

 

Heaven and Earth are impartial and see through the concept of individual nature,

with all things being part of a greater integrated structure.

 

A Sage is wise and sees all people as part of that same integrated structure.

 

The difference between heaven and earth is formless (like the air between too sides of a bellows).

But, this formless space, also has form in a way, as it is the underlying energy/light;

And the greater the movement of it, the greater the manifest potential.

 

Talking and thinking about it is of no value,

One should simply be and reside in this underlying energy/light (center of the bellows).

[Kara_mia]

Thanks again for the interesting discussion!

Heaven and Earth are impartial;
They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.
The wise are impartial.

To me Chapter 5 says about the utmost importance of self-cultivation. If people do not cultivate the Dao -no matter how young and healthy they are, no matter how rich they are, death is inevitable -C'est la vie. That's why here ii is said that Heaven and Earth are impartial or ruthless and see all us as straw dogs - lets recall that straw dogs here are related to the tradition of burning straw dogs at the funeral.

[dawei]

Thanks again for the interesting discussion!

 

Heaven and Earth are impartial;

They see the ten thousand things as straw dogs.

The wise are impartial.

 

To me Chapter 5 says about the utmost importance of self-cultivation. If people do not cultivate the Dao -no matter how young and healthy they are, no matter how rich they are, death is inevitable -C'est la vie. That's why here ii is said that Heaven and Earth are impartial or ruthless and see all us as straw dogs - lets recall that straw dogs here are related to the tradition of burning straw dogs at the funeral.

 

You're leaving out part of the straw dog story... why were they burnt ?    You're neglecting to show how their 'existence' ends in burning.

[Taoist Texts]

Lau 5 Heaven and earth are ruthless,

 

Bill Porter (Red Pine) 5 Heaven and Earth are heartless 

 

 

This is  ignorant mistranslation, because....

 

天将救之，以慈卫之

Heaven saves us, protecting us with mercy

/DDJ 67/

 

or

 

天道无亲，常与善人。

In the Way of Heaven, there is no partiality; it is always on the side of the good man.

/DDJ 79/

Edited March 21, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

But the contradiction remains.

 

We like to hope for the best but it doesn't always happen.

[dawei]

This is  ignorant mistranslation, because....

 

I am surprised at how many go this direction... it just doesn't pass the 'does it make sense' test.

 

Interesting that Legge's wordiness does at least work and his 'dogs of grass' follows some of the oldest commentators.

 

I'm partial to impartial and more aligned with 'not humane' to follow Bu Ren, as Ren is an important Confucian term and I can see LZ trying to say.... it ain't about that...

[Kara_mia]

You're leaving out part of the straw dog story... why were they burnt ?    You're neglecting to show how their 'existence' ends in burning.

 

I believe that understanding why they are burnt does not directly impact understanding of this verse. The straw dogs are burnt at funerals in order to avert evil spirits. However, lets recall the figurative meaning of "straw dog" that means something unwanted or useless thing. Hence in DDJ it is said about the importance of cultivation. And the thesis is emphasized by usage of the "straw dog" expression in its figurative meaning, at the same time in a sense of a pun exploiting its literal relation to the funeral, i.e. pointing to the Death that is awaited everyone who is not cultivating Tao.

[Starjumper]

Straw dogs are used for an annual celebration in Taoist temples.  Everyone makes a show of respecting the straw dogs but later they are burned.

 

The space between heaven and Earth means living beings, like people.

 

Heaven in Taoism means sky.

 

So this is what the chapter means in plain English:

 

-----------------------

 

The sky and Earth treat you nicely but they don't really give a shit.

 

The sage treats you nicely but she doesn't really give a shit.

 

People are always making a big fuss about things but nothing really comes of it.

 

Religion is bullshit.

 

Keep your mouth shut and meditate, not thinking.

 

 

I should write a version of the TTC =)

 

Edited for correctness.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[dawei]

I believe that understanding why they are burnt does not directly impact understanding of this verse. The straw dogs are burnt at funerals in order to avert evil spirits. However, lets recall the figurative meaning of "straw dog" that means something unwanted or useless thing. Hence in DDJ it is said about the importance of cultivation. And the thesis is emphasized by usage of the "straw dog" expression in its figurative meaning, at the same time in a sense of a pun exploiting its literal relation to the funeral, i.e. pointing to the Death that is awaited everyone who is not cultivating Tao.

 

Their 'uselessness' only has meaning because of their [previous] 'usefulness'.

 

It has nothing to do with those not cultivating Dao.

 

The space (formless) between Heaven and Earth (form) is also an analogy.   Form only has meaning due to previous formlessness, to which form will return. 

 

So even this ceremonial act reveals the processes of nature; the recycle reveals in a sense, Form=Void.  It is just the perspective that changes.

[Taoist Texts]

 as Ren is an important Confucian term and I can see LZ trying to say.... it ain't about that...

of course not. it is about the universal love between the sage and the people, the same people the ignoramuses would us to believe the sage is 'ruthless' to.

 

百姓皆注其耳目，圣人皆孩之。

The people all keep their eyes and ears directed to him, and he deals with them all as his children.

/49/

[Wu Ming Jen]

Someday i will be like heaven without a thought or act of kindness I will show kindness to all things. Someday I will be like earth without a thought or act of care I will care for all things.

 

Someday I will breath in and contact the root of earth and breath out and contact the root of heaven much like a bellows,   empty and able to move the unseen, unlimited power. 

 

Someday I will guard my vital energy, the one energy that regulates all things

Words have no meaning to my vital energy so I  will be quite.

 

Straw dogs are not born out of love or burned to death out of hate to think so is to be a child of circumstance.

 

Someday I will invest time in my vital energy, birth and death have no meaning to my vital energy,

 

Someday I will realize Yin and Yang are one

[Marblehead]

Reminded me of the song "Tomorrow Never Comes".

 

I have a "roundtuit" that I keep in perfect operating condition.

[opendao]

I believe that understanding why they are burnt does not directly impact understanding of this verse. The straw dogs are burnt at funerals in order to avert evil spirits. However, lets recall the figurative meaning of "straw dog" that means something unwanted or useless thing. Hence in DDJ it is said about the importance of cultivation. And the thesis is emphasized by usage of the "straw dog" expression in its figurative meaning, at the same time in a sense of a pun exploiting its literal relation to the funeral, i.e. pointing to the Death that is awaited everyone who is not cultivating Tao.

 

Right. Live, struggle and die is useless. Live and obtain Dao - stop being a straw dog 

 

Some people don't get how to be strict and love at the same time. But isn't it how good parents raise their children?

Heaven and earth are strict to people the same way and for the same purpose...

[flowing hands]

No this is the wrong understanding of the verse. In living, all things have to suffer to survive as it is perceived by us. The forces of Heaven and earth have made us and yet we work like nuts, along with other life, to be able to survive. To us this might seem that these creative forces don't care and are "ruthless". But how can they care when they just exist as inert energies. A wise person therefore understands this and the Dao and will treat all things in the same way.

These creative forces are 'empty', but all things depend upon them (they are given form in the shape of life etc.). To a wise person, they understand the value of the 'empty' or 'formless' qualities which have given life. Therefore a wise person applies the same principles.

Edited March 28, 2017 by flowing hands

[silent thunder]

Sun shines in all directions, to the entire universe.

It shines on all people, animals and insects, no matter their courage, morality, or behaviors.

It is beneficial and grows our food, yet it will give me third degree burns if I linger in it for more than an hour or two and kill me outright if I linger in it for weeks.

 

Rain falls on without distinction.

It is beneficial and begets all life on our planet, yet in a torrent, it floods and kills everything in its path.

Wiping the slate without remorse or thought.  Which is good or bad?

 

It is me who continually strives and makes distinctions between good and bad, helpful and harmful.

 

In the entire history of time, not a single blade of grass has grown in the wrong spot. 

 

There are no accidents.

[Gerry]

No this is the wrong understanding of the verse. In living, all things have to suffer to survive as it is perceived by us. The forces of Heaven and earth have made us and yet we work like nuts, along with other life, to be able to survive. To us this might seem that these creative forces don't care and are "ruthless". But how can they care when they just exist as inert energies. A wise person therefore understands this and the Dao and will treat all things in the same way.

These creative forces are 'empty', but all things depend upon them (they are given form in the shape of life etc.). To a wise person, they understand the value of the 'empty' or 'formless' qualities which have given life. Therefore a wise person applies the same principles.

As with all these ancient renderings of the source of how we came to be and how we stand in this universe, I try to see them through the prism of who we are today.  How are these ancient renderings of truth affected by the matrix of what was understood then and what is understood today. The world, the audience, they were communicating with is socially and spiritually to distant to render meaning, for me, into their translations.

 

Today we have a vastly different idiomatic understanding of the Universe and its emergence.  A materialist knows these things but does not allow this understanding to color the Tao. As a Taoist Materialist I do my best to reject false narratives, straw dogs if you must.  These narratives are the musings of awareness proselytizing itself. 

 

I would say the wise man understands this and knows such anthropomorphous explanations are not the Tao.

[flowing hands]

Depends on what ones definition of the Dao is. Some think it is this and some that. Whether it is today a 1000 years to come or 1000 years in the past, the Dao is just the same, so are the creative forces that sustain all life. Knowing this is the wisdom of what Lao Tzu is talking about and how a wise person can see this and use this as a means of being wise in all of their actions.

[Gerry]

[... ]Knowing this is the wisdom of what Lao Tzu is talking about and how a wise person can see this and use this as a means of being wise in all of their actions.

I believe I was saying more or less the same thing.  But we today lack a context for the language usage  of individuals living 2500 years ago. What is understood as the Tao by the wise man then and today differs less than the language used to express that understanding.  I do not understand any form of Chinese be it ancient or contemporary.  But what is clearly true is language defines and nurtures the way consciousnesses experiences and interprets  the world.

 

If I were to call myself a Taoist and to claim I have a personal experience of the Tao, I would not be claiming to have had the same experience of the world as an ancient which led him to express his experience of the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu's relationship to the natural world is significantly different that ours, mine.  The cultural structure of his world is beyond our ken.

 

This is from the Jane English translation of ch. 5:

 

The space between heaven and Earth is like a bellows.

The shape changes but not the form;

The more it moves, the more it yields.

More words count less.

Hold fast to the center.

 

The sense of breath is clear.  We breathe in and we breath out.  The bellows of Tao are creative and destructive, but no-thing is born nor is it extinguished.  The Tao that we acknowledge  is as "More words count less." .  What man, as the awareness of the "ten thousand things"  and as the consciousness of being that awareness via language/ words, may experience is neither the "anthropomorphous explanations" nor the "ten thousand things".

 

In so far as this is the experience of the ancient sage or a fool in modernity, what they apprehend is the same.

[flowing hands]

No what one experiences Dao today or in any other time will be the same as it was at the very beginning. Living Dao is the experience, philosophical Dao is just in books and eluded to and misguided by language.

[Gerry]

Can you explain what you mean by "Living Dao is the experience"?

 

It is not just "philosophical Dao" that is misguided.  To converse about the Tao is misguided or at least lacking in knowing.  Make that "knowing" more of lacking clarity or as being expressive.  But whether or not [one] seeks to know the "Living Dao [as] the experience, or they snicker at the notion, the Tao in no less present.  The knowledge of the presence, the "living Tao", is irrelevant.  The Tao is.

 

We all come to the Tao, or some sense of the Tao through language, but that language stains on  our consciousness with it limitations and it preconceptions.  [Here I mean the innate preconceptions built into our given language.]  What 50 years ago I understood as the Tao I was clearly influenced by that, but I also developed upon reflection an apprehension of the Tao that is neither  being  nor Being.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Gerry

[silent thunder]

aye, tao is eternal, unborn, ephemeral and undying

 

words are shifting, adapting and constantly trying to encapsulate that which lies beyond their ken