Emptiness (sunnyata)

[taoteching99]

Greetings everyone reading the post,

 

Want to ask something here,

 

Anyone familiar of practice that will give rise to the insight of emptiness (sunnyata)? How to give rise to emptiness?

 

[ am i deluded? Is emptiness only arise when one has far advanced in the path? ]

 

My currently understanding is this :

 

 

1. Any authentic cultivation must always return to this very moment,in the here ;

 

 

(sounds crazy isnt it? for where else can it/attention go :-) , i guest what im trying to say is not being distracted by any thoughts,imagination,memories etc...being drifted into future or past),

 

 

2. And the awareness that is being here ,that is to say,in the present moment ( one should not fall into stupor/dull state),that awareness must be very alert , so that any insights can arise .Wisdom wont arise in dull ,'stupid' state.

 

 

3.If alert seems to imply energetic,or effortful,and its better to relax,then perhaps the word 'alert' can be substituted with 'clarity'.(Very)CLEAR AWARENESS and yet, RELAX.

 

 

Simply stated,

 

 

CLEAR(CLARITY),VERY ALERT(NOT SLEEPY,DULL ETC...) and 

 

 

RELAX (this part is my main obstacle) awareness grounded in the present moment.

 

 

Another condition (in this practice )that one must has is : 

 

 

Investigative attitude : this is the strong desire to know the nature of experience (in this case emptiness -groundlessness of experience/phenomena)

 

 

What else is important/missing?

 

 

Thanks 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I'd say you have three good things to start with, develop them and see what you can learn from it?

 

Emptyness practice is quite awesome and in my experience emptyness comes from studiyng something with awareness, nonjudgemental and that investigative attitude. Relaxation is important and emptyness gives relaxation as much as relaxation helps emptyness along.

Clarity, alertness, relaxation, ignoring a priori judgements/biases and investigative attitude are all skills that can be easily cultivated over time. In time emptyness will come and you can keep developing the skill and investigate the experiences.

 

Collect the data, good results, bad results, their causes, your reactions and dont take your first answer for granted.

You need clay to make bricks, lots of it, you must understand how to cook the clay, how different qualities give bricks different properties and what their potential use can be. You can make mediatation out of brick making but never forget that bricks are just bricks, but they can teach you a lot about physics, materials, work and houses.

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Good points, but clear mind effect does not come if you just want to stop all thoughts. It is like an endless river which you are trying to stop - in one moment it will tear the mind limitation and will fill in your mind with thoughts again.

The only way I know is to relax, harmonize energy flows and stabilize heart. After this your mind will become more quiet and stable with time. But this is a general direction, the methods should be tried with someone who is qualified.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Marblehead]

Good points, but clear mind effect does not come if you just want to stop all thoughts. It is like an endless river which you are trying to stop - in one moment it will tear the mind limitation and will fill in your mind with thoughts again.

The only way I know is to relax, harmonize energy flows and stabilize heart. After this your mind will become more quiet and stable with time. But this is a general direction, the methods should be tried with someone who is qualified.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

Good point and it applies to what I call "empty-minded meditation".  The brain-thoughts continue to flow just as the waters of the river.  It's really not about stopping the mind from having thoughts but more at not paying any attention to what arises and falls away.  You give the thoughts no conscious attention.

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Good point and it applies to what I call "empty-minded meditation". The brain-thoughts continue to flow just as the waters of the river. It's really not about stopping the mind from having thoughts but more at not paying any attention to what arises and falls away. You give the thoughts no conscious attention.

Yes but finally the result is a calmed essence with thoughts that are stopped in a natural way without any force. This is a result of harmonization which must correspond to the same level of harmony in the body.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Marblehead]

Oh, I do like the concept of harmony.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Well, it is of course important to consider Ilyas point about stopping thoughts alltogether and what the goal is, but the goal of thought cessation is achieved by way of practice and each step needs to be taken with dedication to the practice, afaik at least.

So carefully focusing on the task at hand is no. 1, the goals and signs will develop and are secondary.

 

A teacher is recommended. If they've already been there it's easier for them to help you stay on your path and avoid the holes and shooting roots there. Which of course is not to say you wont trip and fall at regular intervals, thats also part of it. No loss, no win.

[Phosphorose]

An interesting thing to consider is that thoughts spring forth from attachments. If you are attached to the body or mind, and identified with them, then you will be constantly trying to preserve them and to do that you will be thinking.

 

So the question is how do you identify with something that does not need to be preserved? This will remove attachments and thoughts will lose their stickiness, you can think or not think - it doesn't matter.

 

This is where people have different ways to remove these attachments. Some school work with the internal energy to actually erase them on an energetic level until you realize you are not the body and mind. Others work directly with the mind. Some work with the breath until it is detached from the body. Some go to the extreme and put their body and mind through extreme suffering.

 

Buddha found the middle way is the best - the body is great, meant to be taken care of - but you are not the body. The mind is wonderful, it can do a myriad of things - but you are not the mind.

 

So how will you realize it? You might think you know it, but until you know it the thoughts will keep popping up. It's really interesting actually to watch them - what are they telling you about yourself? If you can't stop thinking about cars, then you must think cars are going to give you something that preserves 'you'. Same with sex, relationships etc. Why are you thinking about them so much?

 

Again, there is nothing wrong with thinking about sex.. but don't you want a choice?

 

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[exorcist_1699]

Without qi as the medium , it is extremely difficult for people to understand why Taoists and Buddhists are so fond of talking about emptiness . Besides , Buddhist way of dealing with emptiness is so inaccessible that it either presses people into some kind of mysticism or trap them in a status of pseudo-voidness ( a stagnant pool of water that can't nourish fish or a way of ' grinding brick to make it a piece mirror') .


Taoist way is much easier for with qi at hands ,in our body to sense , to counter-check ; so easy that in the past people have to deliberately blur its real meanings with strange jargons : white tiger, mercury , yellow old lady..etc .But times has been changing, and we can express it in a clearer way .

Emptiness, which exists everywhere without limitation, together with the emptied mind , which is limited to the space of a physical skull no matter how excited, how smart , how great it thinks of itself , are just two faces of the same coin : Tao , the pre-heavenly qi .Making the originally not emptied mind empty, nourishing it with qi ,and letting it meet  and have intercourse with the ubiquitous emptiness is in fact the essence of Taoist alchemy.

Edited March 23, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Ok, this post just wrote itself, i'm going to throw it out here and revisit it later, hope it's not too unclear.

 

I'd say it's very important to preserve both body and mind for they are the prerequisite for our work, our chance to move on and help others, learn and develop, pass on ways to use and live so that our own liberation isnt at the expense of those that follow.

If you focus on killing of the monkey mind all day, how can the true mind spring forth? Beware monkeys chasing monkeys. Be the tree (sorry about the fortune-cookieisms, i cant help myself lately)

 

Exorcist makes a very valid point i think.

 

For me a Taoist and Buddhist perspective give balance to each other. Develop the qi, quiet the mind, check and balance, release egoism and increase ones energy. Emptyness is an important achievement to further ones efficiency and economy of life. It's a means to express frugality and i think it's best employed caretaking of others. If emptyness is close attachments fight back less and less, which means ego isn't worrying so much about itself anymore.

 

The goals give a sense of purpose, purpose keeps the ego distracted and under the illusion that it's being fed. All the while in a subtle way you're reinforcing the neural pathways of priorities and identification towards altruism and detachment.

 

In the end, losing a leg or an arm doesnt matter because it's just a loaner anyway but the situation of cause and effect, virtue and way etc gets muddled up by putting oneself in an unprotected position. This tends to scare the ego into action and soon the loop of suffering is controlling everything again.

Dont put yourself at risk like that, it's wasteful of one's effort and gong, and the risk of giving bitterness and hopelessness a stronger grip is a sure way to fall back out of the positive vectore one fought so hard to maintain in the first place.

[Marblehead]

Taoist way is much easier for with qi at hands ,in our body to sense , to counter-check ; so easy that in the past people have to deliberately blur its real meanings with strange jargons : white tiger, mercury , yellow old lady..etc .But times has been changing, and we can express it in a clearer way .

 

Interesting post.  It actually links to the most recent section of the Mair's translation of the Chuang Tzu.

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Without qi as the medium , it is extremely difficult for people to understand why Taoists and Buddhists are so fond of talking about emptiness .

 

Emptiness, which exists everywhere without limitation, together with the emptied mind , which is limited to the space of a physical skull no matter how excited, how smart , how great it thinks of itself , are just two faces of the same coin : Tao , the pre-heavenly qi .Making the originally not emptied mind empty, nourishing it with qi ,and letting it meet and have intercourse with the ubiquitous emptiness is in fact the essence of Taoist alchemy.

It seems reasonable about qi, but the problem is to get access to preheaven qi cultivation. Whatever you do with postheaven qi, it does not lead you to the emptiness and, from the other side the preheaven qi is a matter of secret practices.

[Marblehead]

Well, not all Taoists talk about emptiness.  There are a few of us who speak rather to the concept of fullness.

 

And I have spoke about pre-heaven Chi but not much as I find few who wish to talk about this concept and really, my knowledge base is rather lacking.

 

Post-heaven Chi (our personal Chi) is much easier to talk about as most of us can actually feel (experience) this.

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And I have spoke about pre-heaven Chi but not much as I find few who wish to talk about this concept and really, my knowledge base is rather lacking.

 

Post-heaven Chi (our personal Chi) is much easier to talk about as most of us can actually feel (experience) this.

The reason is that we can not feel the preheaven qi being in usual limited conditions. This is an ideal substance while we are not, that is a rational why we don't feel it. And if we don't feel it then how can we discus or try to practice with it without being mistaken?

 

Rgrds, Ilya

[Walker]

This thread contains the word sunyata, a helpful pointer that is worth following up on. Sunyata is an especially important concept with notable variations in its elucidation in Buddhism; it is also a concept that made its way deep into Daoist thinking. Sunyata is not necessary the same as what you might make of Laozi's comments about emptiness, and it's important to know that when Daoists write of 空 they're probably directly referencing Buddhist teachings on sunyata, whereas if they say 虛 or 無 they may be talking about something other than sunyata.

 

In the Buddhist lexicon one finds living intermingled with Daoism in China, if one asks about sunyata/空, one will invariably start a conversation that touches upon the Heart Sutra. This text is of course of massive importance to Chinese Mahayanists and Quanzhen Daoists, but in its brevity it doesn't explain the particulars of emptiness in this context--much confusion and imaginative analogies about the empty space in atoms is a frequent result that misses the point. An important point we must grasp is that these teachings are telling us that all objects and phenomena (事物; also, dharmas with a lowercase d/i.e. 法) are "empty of" something we tend to mistakenly behave as though all objects and phenomena possess. Indeed, physical objects might be empty of solidity just like physics seems to inform us, but that insight does not resolve the questions of birth and death, correct? So what are the things Buddhism wants us to realize that objects and phenomena lack so that we will free our minds from the falsehoods that prevent us from resolving the issue of birth and death? They are:

 

-An independent self

 

-An independent origination

 

Sunyata teachings go further to elucidate the ephemeral and non-independent nature of all phenomena in a variety of ways--all of this is worth studying. To all of us here, none of these concepts will seem too hard to wrap a philosophical mind around; most of us have already heard these teachings or close variations. The key, from a cultivator's standpoint, is to meditate upon them such that they go from being understood concepts to being an expression of an actual shift in your cognition. When that happens to you it may become clear what the relationship between these concepts and actual practice could be. To put this another way, if one sets out to "empty the mind" without realizing that the mind, by very nature of being full of phenomena that are inherently empty is therefore itself also already empty then one is going to be frustrated by finding it impossible to use an imaginary broom to try and sweep up illusory dust in a non-existent room. So, best just to do nothing, no?

 

@Marblehead: of whom, other than yourself, do you speak, when it comes to Daoists who talk about "fullness?"

Edited March 28, 2017 by Walker

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Very interesting, thanks for the thoughts!

The question I have unsolved yet is what is the next step after one reaches lets call it emptiness? Or is it the final step itself? But if so, then what to do with the body untill it is alive (I think when death comes there are much fewer options smile).

My understanding is that any conditions of emptiness you feel are not enough to achieve solid results - to prolong existence instead of dying. This is because we depend on our body cry much, and untill we find a way to develop it all other practices like mind or heart stabilization, emptiness etc will be only a necessary but not sufficient part of development.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Jeff]

Very interesting, thanks for the thoughts!

The question I have unsolved yet is what is the next step after one reaches lets call it emptiness? Or is it the final step itself? But if so, then what to do with the body untill it is alive (I think when death comes there are much fewer options smile).

My understanding is that any conditions of emptiness you feel are not enough to achieve solid results - to prolong existence instead of dying. This is because we depend on our body cry much, and untill we find a way to develop it all other practices like mind or heart stabilization, emptiness etc will be only a necessary but not sufficient part of development.

Rgrds, Ilya

I think there may be some confusion on what (buddhist) emptiness is or is not. It is not really step, but more like a quantum shift. The ultimate realization of emptiness would translate to "being the valley of the universe" in Taoism. There is no such thing as a body (or dying) with the realization of emptiness, so if one continues on the next step would be "returning to the state of the uncarved block". The state of the uncarved block has no attachment to form.

[Marblehead]

@Marblehead: of whom, other than yourself, do you speak, when it comes to Daoists who talk about "fullness?"

No names come to mind at the moment.  However, I have been in discussions a number of times when the concept of emptiness has been brought up in a Daoist discussion and I will always invoke the concept of fullness. 

 

And, of course, that is why I invoked it into this thread.

 

Fullness but empty of any permanent unchanging existence.

 

The Dynamic Dao!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Ooh, i saw what you did there, smooth!

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All this words about a shift and new level are just words, but we still depend on the body even if we think we don't. This means - for me - that when a body dies afterlife existence is under a big-big question, whatever you think about emptiness and going out of "mind limitations".

Therefore a good qi/ming practice is one of the solutions.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Walker]

The body can have marked reactions to this "shift," i.e., cessation of the (perceptible) breath, and I know not what else. I suspect that you are right that the body is important, and that we may be able to some extent gauge whether we have entered into the philosophy or just grasped it intellectually by some of the ways the body reacts to shifts in consciousness. Furthermore, many classics (things I've read from 劉一明 白玉蟾 recently spring to mind) seem to suggest that a qi/ming gong that can resolve the questions you allude to is based on a mind that has made this "shift."

 

Then again, 開口便錯, eh...

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This question about qi or mind looks like a question what was earlier - a hen or an egg... I think that qi and mind develop mutually, it is difficult to suppose a person with great qi and poor mind at the same time and vise versa. This is a principal of harmony - mutual development of all parts of ourselves.

Rgrds, Ilya

[qicat]

 

Simply stated,

 

 

CLEAR(CLARITY),VERY ALERT(NOT SLEEPY,DULL ETC...) and 

 

 

RELAX (this part is my main obstacle) awareness grounded in the present moment.

 

 

 

Over the years, I have found that many practices give me this "Open.Clear.Awake" state. It is different from "yoga high" /"qigong high" states.

What worked for me:

1. Kryia yoga ( 45  min +)

2. Qigong certain sets ( ones that go into emptiness, not "spiritual highness"). 

3. Buddhist Puja's  ( i.e mantra->prostration->mandala offering->mantra) at the temple. 

 

It's a different state than intentional "fire burning". It's a different state of getting "high" on kundalini yoga. It's exactly what it states -> clarity,alertness,awakeness ( even if it is 5am or 11pm).

[Wayfarer]

The OP is like a trick question.  You are in effect asking people how you can become what you already are.  The fact you haven't realised this already does not change anything.  Emptiness and fullness is the same no-thing.  Daoists speak of no-thingness.  

 

So, for instance, I read on an earlier post "you are not the body", "you are not the mind" then if you are not this, there is duality.  If you think you are this and not something else, there is duality.

 

You are That which is non-dual.  The Nameless Dao is both Empty and Full, it is both mind and body, not-mind and not-body.  The Middle Way of Buddhism is the Dao of Middle Oneness - both thoughts of emptiness and fullness are forgotten (as they are extremes) both body and not-body is forgotten, as they are extremes.

 

You are like a man making lots of effort because you wish to be a man however you are one already; one day, you will Realise and laugh at all the effort to become what you were already.  So, how to realise?  Stillness, letting thoughts drift away without attention to them, watching life without attentively observing it and when a thought of one extreme or another comes, let it go.

 

Read the first three lessons here from Chongxuan Dao:

 

https://chongxuandao.com/teachings-one/

 

[doc benway]

Greetings everyone reading the post,

 

Want to ask something here,

 

Anyone familiar of practice that will give rise to the insight of emptiness (sunnyata)? How to give rise to emptiness?

 

[ am i deluded? Is emptiness only arise when one has far advanced in the path? ]

 

My currently understanding is this :

 

 

1. Any authentic cultivation must always return to this very moment,in the here ;

 

 

(sounds crazy isnt it? for where else can it/attention go :-) , i guest what im trying to say is not being distracted by any thoughts,imagination,memories etc...being drifted into future or past),

 

 

2. And the awareness that is being here ,that is to say,in the present moment ( one should not fall into stupor/dull state),that awareness must be very alert , so that any insights can arise .Wisdom wont arise in dull ,'stupid' state.

 

 

3.If alert seems to imply energetic,or effortful,and its better to relax,then perhaps the word 'alert' can be substituted with 'clarity'.(Very)CLEAR AWARENESS and yet, RELAX.

 

 

Simply stated,

 

 

CLEAR(CLARITY),VERY ALERT(NOT SLEEPY,DULL ETC...) and 

 

 

RELAX (this part is my main obstacle) awareness grounded in the present moment.

 

 

Another condition (in this practice )that one must has is : 

 

 

Investigative attitude : this is the strong desire to know the nature of experience (in this case emptiness -groundlessness of experience/phenomena)

 

 

What else is important/missing?

 

 

Thanks 

 

How to give rise?

Get out of the way!

It happens of itself.

It already is... it is the 'you' that is in the way.

 

You have touched upon the important mechanics of meditation.

There is presence, clarity, and relaxing (I prefer words like resting, opening, letting go).

 

It is important that the 'investigative attitude' not be a part of the meditation.

It is valuable before and after meditation to motivate and integrate the experience.

If it is a part of the meditation, it simply blocks the letting go of the one who is the obstacle.

 

Above all, it takes time (for most), patience, and persistence.

Some would add that things like faith, devotion, trust, and prayer are extremely helpful.

I think this is because it transcends cause and effect - a lifetime of skillful practice may not yield fruit while it may emerge in an instant for a non-practitioner. There is that quality of grace or blessing.

It all depends on your unique constitution and conditioning, I think.