So what's the deal between qigongs and dreams?

[qicat]

Kitty is looking for some scientific explanation of a linkage between doing qigongs and having strange dreams the following night.  The OP is specifically interested when some random "people of the past" show up and some weird show is going on. 

 

Any thoughts or experiences?

 

1. What exactly is being triggered?

2. Why those "streams of consciousness" are interacting.

3. Is there any applied wisdom to this dimension?

 

Meow...

[Archivist]

I've had experiences that might correlate with Apeiron&Peiron's. Refining energies before bed with qigong exercises seems to result in more "productive" dreams, rather than just getting a symbolic representation of a blockage/explicit flashes. You start tapping into psychic networks, rather than just working thru your own gunk.  

 

I also tend to think that people's psychic sensitivities are increasing in general these days, so qigong before bed and then dreaming of "past people" is you peeking into the fact that they've been thinking about you recently. Lots of people are reflecting on past relationships these days, why things played out the way they did, etc. Definitely had an instance of this recently, with fairly decent anecdotal proof. Streams of consciousness are interacting and things are being triggered b/c your energies are tapping into the collective unconscious, is one possibility, I think. 

 

As for scientific explanation, this personally happens when my pituitary and pineal glands are vibrating with chi. These are hormone-regulating glands, including inducing sleepiness, and the pineal gland supposedly manufactures DMT, which is said to be the catalytic substance in entheogenic plants like ayahuasca. On those nights, I notice there are more "weird shows," as you put it, and patterning--versus, say, dreams of 'oh here I am again running from a monster... 

 

Certain Chinese herbs mixed with qigong can really do the trick, too. Like he shou wu. But applied wisdom, like lucid dreaming, is hard to do in these scenarios, in my experience. 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

My personal impression is that it is probably related to hormonal shifts during practice.

My own teacher has been researching nervous system and hormonal related subjects in his own studies and feels that there is a correlation between experiences of Qi and both the nervous system and endocrine systems, although if I understand it correctly, there is only a very small body of work available in English on the subject.

Certainly we do have a few papers that suggest long term meditation triggers production of certain types of endorphin, similar to the runners high.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I used to do a lot of dream work and kept up a very detailed dream journal. I was able to recall a significant amount of dreams each night (to the point where writing down all the detail was kind of a chore).

 

Correspondingly, in my day time practice I was becoming more aware of the thoughts I had throughout the day.

 

In the end, I realized the vast, VAST majority of my dream content was just leftover or recycled thoughts, either from that day or from the past week.

 

For example, I'd see someone in my dream and think it was a big deal... then remember I glanced at their name when scrolling through my phone contacts. Okay, just subconscious processing of stuff.

 

I've had some interesting dream phenomena from time to time. For the record, I DO think dreams can be used from a spiritual development standpoint.

 

However, I also think that you need to have spiritual development enough to be able to distinguish between, say, internally generated mental thoughts and externally generated psychic thoughts. And that takes a bit of work. 

 

If you aren't at that point (and I myself, am not) I would suggest not attaching too much to dreams, if something stands out hold it loosely in your awareness, and if something happens something happens.

 

If it's real, it will stick around/keep coming back.

[awaken]

Many years, when I was a beginner, I dreamed a lot.

 

I dreamed of flying, running, big moon, big son, explosion， buddhisatva, dancing water, fire,etc...

 

Now, I use dreams to exam my state.

 

If I dream, I know I need more meditation.

 

Because the block of the heart make me dream.

 

It is called five covers.

 

If I have no dream, I know I get better.

[[email protected]]

Dreams are produced by our mind. And there is no way to control it maybe except some practices in neidan. So the best way to avoid unnecessary and unproductive mind fluctuations is to harmonize qi and stabilize xing in daily practice.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Dioni]

It's a very interesting subjects dreams.

When I was a teenager and I was doing lot of meditation and energetic exercises I experienced lucid dreams and OBE.

I guess for Qi Gong practise is the same: where there is more energy in the body you have more dreams. Or to say it better, dreams are more powerful and there is the ability to remember them. As awaken said, another explanation could be that when you move lots of energy in the body-mind you also trigger and unlock physical-psychological blocks and tension that may be experience as dreams.

According to essene tradition dreams are a way to practice in another dimension and can be a very powerful tool in the personal growth. I don't know if the Daoist canon the dream subject has been taken into account as would be interested to know what is it's point of view of it.

[centertime]

It's a very interesting subjects dreams.

When I was a teenager and I was doing lot of meditation and energetic exercises I experienced lucid dreams and OBE.

I guess for Qi Gong practise is the same: where there is more energy in the body you have more dreams. Or to say it better, dreams are more powerful and there is the ability to remember them. As awaken said, another explanation could be that when you move lots of energy in the body-mind you also trigger and unlock physical-psychological blocks and tension that may be experience as dreams.

According to essene tradition dreams are a way to practice in another dimension and can be a very powerful tool in the personal growth. I don't know if the Daoist canon the dream subject has been taken into account as would be interested to know what is it's point of view of it.

Essene tradition?  What do they say?

[Dioni]

Essene tradition?  What do they say?

I advice you the book "The Magus of Strovolos"

[qicat]

I had a dream last night where I was told to be a vegetarian... Where have you seen vegetarian tigers??? Me either... Dreams are weird.

 

 

p.s. oh, and qigongs... last Saturday I got full dzogchen empowerment. VERY strong thing from the Tulku. And I thought you are allowed to eat meat in tantra...

Edited April 18, 2017 by qicat

[[email protected]]

I don't know if the Daoist canon the dream subject has been taken into account as would be interested to know what is it's point of view of it.

Taoists try to escape dreams and do not use them in practice because dreams are a product of our mind. Taoist approach streams to develop body and spirit but not mind and fantasies. This is Taoist approach to dreams as I heard about it.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Taoway]

I've had experiences that might correlate with Apeiron&Peiron's. Refining energies before bed with qigong exercises seems to result in more "productive" dreams, rather than just getting a symbolic representation of a blockage/explicit flashes. You start tapping into psychic networks, rather than just working thru your own gunk.

 

I also tend to think that people's psychic sensitivities are increasing in general these days, so qigong before bed and then dreaming of "past people" is you peeking into the fact that they've been thinking about you recently. Lots of people are reflecting on past relationships these days, why things played out the way they did, etc. Definitely had an instance of this recently, with fairly decent anecdotal proof. Streams of consciousness are interacting and things are being triggered b/c your energies are tapping into the collective unconscious, is one possibility, I think.

 

As for scientific explanation, this personally happens when my pituitary and pineal glands are vibrating with chi. These are hormone-regulating glands, including inducing sleepiness, and the pineal gland supposedly manufactures DMT, which is said to be the catalytic substance in entheogenic plants like ayahuasca. On those nights, I notice there are more "weird shows," as you put it, and patterning--versus, say, dreams of 'oh here I am again running from a monster...

 

Certain Chinese herbs mixed with qigong can really do the trick, too. Like he shou wu. But applied wisdom, like lucid dreaming, is hard to do in these scenarios, in my experience.

All this makes me want to get back into dream yoga.

 

When you talk about the hormones in the pituitary and pineal gland. It reminds me that when I just lower my gaze in the middle of my brow. My forehead and brain start to vibrate. Is this what you mean ?

[Taoway]

Taoists try to escape dreams and do not use them in practice because dreams are a product of our mind. Taoist approach streams to develop body and spirit but not mind and fantasies. This is Taoist approach to dreams as I heard about it.

Rgrds, Ilya

If that is so. I can't help but think that's a little foolish. I enjoy the Tibetan idea that if we learn to become lucid in dreams we can continue to be lucid during the bardo after we die. I mean wouldn't a Taoist like to work on having clear dreams at least ? I could understand not flying around at night lucidily for entertainment. But if there are subconscious hang ups do Taoists just focus on their waking practice and feel things will work them selves out in dream

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I had a dream last night where I was told to be a vegetarian... Where have you seen vegetarian tigers??? Me either... Dreams are weird.

 

 

p.s. oh, and qigongs... last Saturday I got full dzogchen empowerment. VERY strong thing from the Tulku. And I thought you are allowed to eat meat in tantra...

 

Little Tyke: True Story of a Gentle Vegetarian Lioness

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Stories/LittleTyke.htm

Edited April 21, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[qicat]

 

Little Tyke: True Story of a Gentle Vegetarian Lioness

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Stories/LittleTyke.htm

 

says the guy with a wolf on his signature....

 

poke poke poke

Edited April 21, 2017 by qicat

[Golden Dragon Shining]

It's a transcendental wolf, non-earthly

Edited April 22, 2017 by Golden Dragon Shining

[silent thunder]

the essence of wolf, is the pack and the hunt

glorious, sacred and healing

 

and all about love, especially the hunt

love beyond measure

[[email protected]]

If that is so. I can't help but think that's a little foolish. I enjoy the Tibetan idea that if we learn to become lucid in dreams we can continue to be lucid during the bardo after we die. I mean wouldn't a Taoist like to work on having clear dreams at least ? I could understand not flying around at night lucidily for entertainment. But if there are subconscious hang ups do Taoists just focus on their waking practice and feel things will work them selves out in dream

Tibetan practice of bardo helpes to reach the level of so called ghost immortal after death. This level is described by Zhunly Zhuan when he teached Liu Dongbin. Taoist try to escape this level because it is like a trap when a being can't reach higher levels due to lack of energy, absence of any body and also can't return to physical world.

So from this point dreams will not lead you to any solid results.

Rgrds, Ilya

[doc benway]

Kitty is looking for some scientific explanation of a linkage between doing qigongs and having strange dreams the following night.  The OP is specifically interested when some random "people of the past" show up and some weird show is going on. 

 

Any thoughts or experiences?

 

1. What exactly is being triggered?

2. Why those "streams of consciousness" are interacting.

3. Is there any applied wisdom to this dimension?

 

Meow...

 

Hi qicat, I'm happy to share some thoughts.

 

Our minds generate everything we see, everything we think, everything we are, in their interaction with surrounding conditions.

If I pay attention, I notice all sorts of thoughts, images, impression, and internal dialogues arising throughout the day.

Even how we interpret and experience things we assume are 'outside' ourselves - sights, sounds, smells, tastes...

It's all a reflection of our mind.

Where does this all come from? Our experience, desires, aversions, memories, unresolved conflict, and so forth.

Same thing for dreams - they are just that same activity of the mind occurring during sleep. Everything we encounter, everything that affects us, will play out in our dreams.

 

Meditation and qigong both open us to a deeper connection to ourselves - repressed and suppressed emotion and memories will come up as our practice deepens and strengthens. My Daoist meditation master said one of the benefits of practicing meditation is that it allows us to face and work through this stuff while we are young and healthy. He said that eventually everyone must face it all and most people face it without training or preparation when they are frail, sick, and close to death. He used to attribute the extremely high rate of suicide in the elderly to this part, in part.

 

So I would suggest that it is normal to dream and it is expected that your dreams will reflect your daily life. Adding meditation and qigong to your life will potentially lead to richer, more intense dreams, and it is likely that you will face deeper and potentially more disturbing things that you've hidden away. Over time, if your daily life becomes more well-adjusted, more peaceful, more at ease through these practices, your dreams will as well. 

 

I practice yogas of dream and sleep. In dream yoga, we train ourselves to recognize we are dreaming in the dream and to take control of the dreamscape. In learning to be in control in our dreams, we can similarly be in control of, and make changes in, our waking lives, often in ways we would not have thought possible. Sleep yoga focuses more on examining and experiencing the process of transition between waking and sleep. It usually passes in an instant, in ignorance, with no memory, and yet as we learn to observe the transition it is seen to be a gradual, multi-layered, and fascinating process of dissolution of the self. It is thought to be somewhat similar to the dissolution experienced at the time of death. With practice, we can ride our awareness right into sleep and rest in the experience of perfect clarity and awareness in deep sleep, in the absence of dreams. This is thought to be very similar to the first Bardo encountered in death (there are several). Recognizing this in sleep can make us more likely to recognize our true face in death which is said to be a door to liberation from the cycles of samsara.

 

Edited to add a few words about energy - 

One explanation from the Tibetan tradition is that the genesis of a dream is a combination of a subtle "wind" (Tibetans use the word wind, subtle movement of energy, to describe what others call prana or qi) interacting with an energy center or chakra. Since we carry our emotional life in our chakra system, the chakra that is stimulated will determine the nature of the dream. In practicing dream yoga, one method is to focus on specific chakras and generate visualizations in that chakra as we fall asleep. This allows us to influence the type of dream we are likely to have (this is divided into categories like peaceful, wrathful, and powerful). So as our energetic life changes through qigong, naturally our dreams will reflect this. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by steve

[[email protected]]

In dream yoga, we train ourselves to recognize we are dreaming in the dream and to take control of the dreamscape. In learning to be in control in our dreams, we can similarly be in control of, and make changes in, our waking lives, often in ways we would not have thought possible.

I had similar practice some time ago, but every time I managed to realize that I am dreaming in that particular moment, smth made me slowly awake without a possibility to stay in a dream. This practice was very interesting to do because every evening I was guessing if I awake inside the dream or not. But I guess this practice leads us from reality to some unreal worlds.

Rgrds, Ilya

[qicat]

I had similar practice some time ago, but every time I managed to realize that I am dreaming in that particular moment, smth made me slowly awake without a possibility to stay in a dream. This practice was very interesting to do because every evening I was guessing if I awake inside the dream or not. But I guess this practice leads us from reality to some unreal worlds.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

you are lucky

try jumping of the buildings in those states...

It makes you REALLY believe that you are sleeping even if everything is "very real". My reasoning is simple: heck, if I am sleeping and controlling my dream, then I can jump of the building and nothing will happen. And if I am not sleeping and at the rooftop in "real life", well, perhaps that's the "end of the road". Happily for me so far it had been dreams... 

 

I wonder where Matrix movie got their ideas... Is it like a common test or something?

[[email protected]]

you are lucky

try jumping of the buildings in those states...

 

I wonder where Matrix movie got their ideas... Is it like a common test or something?

I am afraid I'm not ready to test whether I am sleeping or not jumping out of buildings :).

Speaking seriously, I never managed to stay in a dream after understanding that its a dream for more then several seconds. And in addition, successful cases when I awaked were rare. So I stopped this practice because it seemed me useless.

[doc benway]

I had similar practice some time ago, but every time I managed to realize that I am dreaming in that particular moment, smth made me slowly awake without a possibility to stay in a dream. This practice was very interesting to do because every evening I was guessing if I awake inside the dream or not. But I guess this practice leads us from reality to some unreal worlds.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

 

I am afraid I'm not ready to test whether I am sleeping or not jumping out of buildings :).

Speaking seriously, I never managed to stay in a dream after understanding that its a dream for more then several seconds. And in addition, successful cases when I awaked were rare. So I stopped this practice because it seemed me useless.

 

Most people who practice run in to that obstacle. The realization that "I am dreaming" leads to excitement which destabilizes the  realization and we either wake up or find ourselves in another dream. Since we have to sleep every night, there's nothing to lose by continuing the practice! These practices are far from useless but they do take an enormous amount of patience and dedication, especially for those of us not living in monastic circumstances. I think it also helps a great deal to have transmission from a lineage master. 

[allinone]

Most people who practice run in to that obstacle. The realization that "I am dreaming" leads to excitement which destabilizes the  realization and we either wake up or find ourselves in another dream. Since we have to sleep every night, there's nothing to lose by continuing the practice! These practices are far from useless but they do take an enormous amount of patience and dedication, especially for those of us not living in monastic circumstances. I think it also helps a great deal to have transmission from a lineage master. 

 

The lucid dream is for a reason after it ends. So if you cultivate then the lucid dream comes it lasts a moment, couple seconds that long it requiers to be and if not get done then you repeat and well don't get stuck with the same stuff.

Cultivation is the fundamental side or technical side, you require only the lucid dream xp itself not what you do there in or "meditate in dream".

Is it worth to separately wish for lucid dreams?..or is it more worth to improve fundamentals so the lucid dream what is it build of--the conditions change; it is more useful to cultivate that way that lucid dream is one equal part of entire circle of different other points, so that lucid dream separately to practice is inferior.

 

edit: lucid dream xp , if it is even fraction of second, it has to be experienced, remembered. It is even before breathing exercises, there is no point doing breathing work if not xp lucid dream once.

Lucid dream opens spiritual thinking.

If first timer, then to wish lucid dram, you must have gotten knowledge of its existence, from internet or books, and the instruction: it is usually to when in dream look at the hands to induce coming aware, + there is vibrations, what can be even painful.

If you get level up, you at some point experience different kind of lucid dream and some fundamental part of nature of reality it is learned there.

Edited April 24, 2017 by allinone

[doc benway]

Not sure I fully understand your post allinone, my apologies.

 

One point seems to be the importance of combining dream practice with foundational spiritual practices. I agree with that. Dream practice is a 24 hour cycle and incorporates morning, daytime, evening, and sleep components. In addition, it is meant to be one part of a more comprehensive tantric spiritual practice.

 

You mention that "you require only the lucid dream xp itself not what you do there in or "meditate in dream." I do not agree fully with this point. As Ilya mentioned, the lucid dream experience can be very unstable and it is only through practicing with the lucidity that we can stabilize the practice, make it more predictable, and learn how to effectively manipulate the dream environment. We can learn to change things, make the larger, smaller, multiply things, visit places, seek teachings, and so forth. For the dream practitioner this is all very worthwhile and requires a lot of patience and practice.