Mair 6:3

[Marblehead]

The Way has attributes and evidence, but it has no action and no form.  It may be transmitted but cannot be received.  It may be apprehended but cannot be seen.  From the root, from the stock, before there was heaven or earth, for all eternity truly has it existed.  It inspirits demons and gods, gives birth to heaven and earth.  It lies above the zenith but is not high; it lies beneath the nadir but is not deep.  It is prior to heaven and earth, but it is not ancient; it is senior to high antiquity, but it is not old.

The clansman Hsiwei attained it,
and thereby demarcated heaven and earth;

The clansman Fuhsi attained it,
and thereby adjusted the breath of the mother.

 

Polaris attained it,
and has not deviated throughout the ages;

 

The sun and moon attained it,
and have never rested throughout the ages;

 

K'anp'i attained it,
and thereby inherited Mount K'unlun;
 

{{The axis of the world, located far to the west of China.}}

 

P'ingyi attained it,
and thereby wandered in the great rivers.

 

Chien Wu attained it,
and thereby dwelled on supreme Mount T'ai;

 

The Yellow Emperor attained it,
{{This is Huang Ti, whose title might also be rendered as "Yellow / Blond Deus."  According to legend, he is said to have subdued the warring tribes at the dawn of Chinese civilization and to have taught them medicine, mathematics, musical scales, and other vital aspects of culture.}}
and thereby ascended to cloud-filled heaven.

 

Chuan Hsu attained it,
and thereby dwelled in his dark palace.

 

Yiich'iang attained it,
and stands at the north pole.

 

The Queen Mother of the West attained it,
and sits at faraway Shaokuang;
no one knows her beginning,
no one knows her end.

 

Progenitor P'eng attained it,
and lived from the time of Shun
to the time of the five hegemons.
 

{{A ruler who is able to exert control over a number of competing states.  The term is applied particularly to the leaders of Ch'i, Sung, Chin, Ch'in, and Ch'u during the Warring States period.}}

 

Fu Yiieh attained it,
and thereby became minister of Wuting,
grandly in possession of all under heaven;
mounted upon Sagittarius,
riding upon Scorpio,
he joined the arrayed stars.

[Taoist Texts]

 

The Way has attributes and evidence, but it has no action and no form.  It may be transmitted but cannot be received.  

 

 

夫道，有情有信，無為無形；可傳而不可受

 

This is the Dao; there is in It emotion and sincerity, but It does nothing and has no bodily form. It may be handed down (by the teacher), but may not be received (by his scholars)

/Legge/

[Marblehead]

I don't like the "emotion and sincerity" in that.  It gives Dao human attributes.

[Stosh]

Then that excludes motherhood and all gender assignations, Yes? 

[Marblehead]

Then that excludes motherhood and all gender assignations, Yes? 

 

Yes.

 

Non-personified therefore non-gender.

[Stosh]

I'd say that too.

[Taoist Texts]

I don't like the "emotion and sincerity" in that.  It gives Dao human attributes.

Also here ZZ details his belief in the ascended gods and spirits.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Also here ZZ details his belief in the ascended gods and spirits.

 

Yeah, but in my opinion we need be careful with this and not make any assumptions.

[Stosh]

Yes ,the only assumption that should be made,is that in creative writing, one is compelled to use existing understanding to set a stage for new stuff to be grasped. Is the character tian , and is that heaven in the way we talk about the cosmos? or is it heaven in the sense that its a place in the sky where magic people live and mess around with the affairs of mortals,, like Asgard or Olympus.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

 Is the character tian , 

yes it is 天 tian

 

 

and is that heaven in the way we talk about the cosmos? or is it heaven in the sense that its a place in the sky where magic people live and mess around with the affairs of mortals,, like Asgard or Olympus.

 

 

Same thing, actually, since tian is the place where gods ride stars.

[Stosh]

yes it is 天 tian

 

 

 

Same thing, actually, since tian is the place where gods ride stars.

Never heard that before, these star riding gods , they , willfully orchestrate the lives of men? Choose winners and losers , kill folks who displease them ? cause special bounty to those who honor them like making more fruit grow or something? 

[Taoist Texts]

Never heard that before, these star riding gods , they , willfully orchestrate the lives of men? Choose winners and losers , kill folks who displease them ? cause special bounty to those who honor them like making more fruit grow or something? 

Damn straight. Thats what they do.

 

As early as the Shang Dynasty (2070 B.C. – 1600 B.C.), the sky was divided into 31 regions, each consisting of a group of stars. The Three Enclosures (三垣 sānyuán) formed the centerpiece of the northern night sky, and can be observed all year around. Ancient Chinese thought of them as the residence and work place of the Jade Emperor (玉帝 Yùdì) and his ministers, as well as the busy downtown streets they governed.

 

The Jade Emperor's Birthday (天公誕) is said to be the ninth day of the first lunar month.^[9] On this day Taoist temples hold a Jade Emperor ritual (拜天公, bài Tiān Gōng, literally "heaven worship") at which priests and laymen prostrate themselves, burn incense and make food offerings.

In the morning of this birthday, Chinese and Taiwanese households set up an altar table with 3 layers: one top (containing offertories of six vegetables (六齋), noodles, fruits, cakes, tangyuan, vegetable bowls, and unripe betel, all decorated with paper lanterns) and two lower levels (containing the five sacrifices and wines) to honor the deities below the Jade Emperor.^[9] The household then kneels three times and kowtows nine times to pay homage and wish him a long life.^[9]

[Stosh]

Damn straight. Thats what they do.

 

As early as the Shang Dynasty (2070 B.C. – 1600 B.C.), the sky was divided into 31 regions, each consisting of a group of stars. The Three Enclosures (三垣 sānyuán) formed the centerpiece of the northern night sky, and can be observed all year around. Ancient Chinese thought of them as the residence and work place of the Jade Emperor (玉帝 Yùdì) and his ministers, as well as the busy downtown streets they governed.

 

The Jade Emperor's Birthday (天公誕) is said to be the ninth day of the first lunar month.^[9] On this day Taoist temples hold a Jade Emperor ritual (拜天公, bài Tiān Gōng, literally "heaven worship") at which priests and laymen prostrate themselves, burn incense and make food offerings.

In the morning of this birthday, Chinese and Taiwanese households set up an altar table with 3 layers: one top (containing offertories of six vegetables (六齋), noodles, fruits, cakes, tangyuan, vegetable bowls, and unripe betel, all decorated with paper lanterns) and two lower levels (containing the five sacrifices and wines) to honor the deities below the Jade Emperor.^[9] The household then kneels three times and kowtows nine times to pay homage and wish him a long life.^[9]

Is any of that the work of Lao or Chuang? or is this based on alternate sources whose opinions are their own. 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

  or is this based on alternate sources whose opinions are their own. 

that was from wiki)

[Stosh]

that was from wiki)

That's fine , what I am getting at is that there are schools of thought for any large religion family and the vision of meddling gods riding stars is very old Taoism .. I think..

Anyway , if one makes the assumption that Chuang and Lao are of the same opinions because other folks under the heading of taoists thought along those lines , then we still need to check if this fits with that which is espoused by Lao and Chuang.  I am thinking that there is a very clear inherent discrepancy with that assumption, and if you tear that apart , I am likely going to have to reject Daoism as a superstitious thinigie which I cant accommodate. 

[Taoist Texts]

  then we still need to check if this fits with that which is espoused by Lao and Chuang.  I am thinking that there is a very clear inherent discrepancy with that assumption, and if you tear that apart , I am likely going to have to reject Daoism as a superstitious thinigie which I cant accommodate. 

No, no i am not gonna do anything of the sort. Daoism is what it is to you. There is no feasible definition of daoism either scholarly or consensual. If i don't like religion i am just gonna say that religious daois is the fringe, while the core is some realistic philosophical exposition. Its a make your own daoism thing.)

[Stosh]

You'd be saving me a lot of time , Look , if it Is a Rorschach blot, silly ramblings of a hallucinating mystic , and one can make of it what one will, then I would be the one weaving rationality into IT , So there is nothing for me to gain From it , the rational worldview is one I Already hold.

On the other hand , if IT has a rational core , meaning of its own , a message,, well then there is something to be gained.

 

From stuff you already said , I figure you see it as ,, essentially ,, cultural fairy tales,, interesting as a poetic piece , influential document , a maguffin.

All along I've argued the other side , that its the origins of scientific style thought .. essentially how the rationale of the world looks when one removes the arbitrary whimsy of Gods , and replaces that irrationality -with principles which can be trusted  learned and employed by humanity , to progress. 

Balking, you deprive me of the opportunity to show where these lines of thought diverge , or you deprive me of seeing my own silly yarn spinning. 

I am quite ready to accept either way. 

[dawei]

夫道，有情有信，無為無形；可傳而不可受

 

This is the Dao; there is in It emotion and sincerity, but It does nothing and has no bodily form. It may be handed down (by the teacher), but may not be received (by his scholars)

/Legge/

 

But Legge's translation is as difficult to accept; to transmit implies receiving.   To hand down is to imply received [before or after]

[Taoist Texts]

But Legge's translation is as difficult to accept; to transmit implies receiving.   To hand down is to imply received [before or after]

Very good point. Ironically its 不可 again haha). Yes zhuan 傳 is understood as transmission (give-receive) but it is more of a broadcast 转播. Only those specially attuned receive.

 

Another option is 可傳而不可受 'can be given but can not be taken (unilaterally)'

Edited March 22, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

On the other hand , if IT has a rational core , meaning of its own , a message,, well then there is something to be gained.

 

Well of course there is. Thats why 'taoism' is right next to self-help in the bookstore.

 

 

From stuff you already said , I figure you see it as ,, essentially ,, cultural fairy tales,, interesting as a poetic piece , influential document , a maguffin.

 

Kudos on the maguffin, very apt. But no, for me it is a religion of which i am a true believer.

 

All along I've argued the other side , that its the origins of scientific style thought .. essentially how the rationale of the world looks when one removes the arbitrary whimsy of Gods , and replaces that irrationality -with principles which can be trusted  learned and employed by humanity , to progress. 

 

'arbitrary whimsy of Gods'. Hmm but you see the whole purpose of the idea of God is to impose rationality on the irrational universe. You be good to god - god is good to you. A pinnacle of rationality, no?

 

 opportunity to show where these lines of thought diverge ,  

 Let the games begin.)

Edited March 22, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Stosh]

You honestly think that stars go where they do because theres guys riding around on them? bull. And theres no gods to be anything to. But letting games begin ,indicates bad things.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Yes the idea of gods is supposed to explain why certain kinds of things happen, but for a true believer , the god would exist regardless of whether they appeared to impose rationality , their presence 'explained' things , or not. This suggestion of there being a purpose to the idea of gods is the mindset of the non-believer. 

So with your dual angled approach claiming one , but using the logic of the other , I cant make heads or tails other then to think that the sentiment held is one of an 'adversarial' attitude. I've seen thousands of web threads , and there's just no way to strong arm someone into intellectual honesty, its either present or its not. True investigation has got to be cooperative in some respects. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

And contradictions are freely offered.

[Taoist Texts]

Yes the idea of gods is supposed to explain why certain kinds of things happen, but for a true believer , the god would exist regardless of whether they appeared to impose rationality , their presence 'explained' things , or not.  

I honestly disagree. 

 

You honestly think that stars go where they do because theres guys riding around on them?

 

 

I honestly think that it is a possibility.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/27/physicists-universe-giant-brain_n_2196346.html

[Stosh]

I honestly disagree. 

 

 

I honestly think that it is a possibility.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/27/physicists-universe-giant-brain_n_2196346.html

Ok well , look at this from my perspective, I tell you I'm willing to give your perspective a fair shake, grant credibility,, and right off the bat you're arguing that there's guys driving the stars around like go-karts, and the universe is a giant brain..