Mair 6:3

[dawei]

Reason 5: to illustrate Daoist cosmology/working of the universe? Maybe I am just overstretching. I guess it doesn't really contain any teachings; it just continues a theme, perhaps? The Dao/One/Polaris is static, never changing; Yin and Yang/moon and sun are dynamic/always moving/ always changing (or causing change).

 

I'm not sure what you meant by 'in context'? I don't think my question has any relevance to ZZ. I just saw your links and it reminded me of Eva Wong. I don't think she mentions any particular reason why they did that, although I seem to remember her including the dance steps for the shuffle.

 

I'm not familiar with Xi Wang Mu. I shall add her to my list of investigations.

 

ETA: I just saw this random snippet. I didn't realise Wu shamans appeared in ZZ although not very favourably. I'll have a bit more of a read on the subject tomorrow and see if I can find anything else.

 

 

 

http://world-news-research.com/shamanism.html

 

In context meant, Eva Wong said it.   I'd want to see further explanation before I said ZZ saw them unfavorably but that wouldn't surprise me as you would need to show me anything he saw as favorably.

 

Re-reading your post, you mentioned the 'dance'.   This may be the Pace of Yu.  I mentioned that here:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38613-3-the-xia-dynasty-2100-%E2%80%93-1600-bc/?hl=pace

 

With a link to:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu

 

Your point of static vs dynamic is noted and known.  Maybe I'm still missing what is your point.   I think these are just movement related as the ten thousand move and yet come from Dao which is unmoved.   

[morning dew]

Thanks, guys. Lots of interesting stuff for me to go over; I'm staggered as to how much decent information is on this forum.

 

 

In context meant, Eva Wong said it.   I'd want to see further explanation before I said ZZ saw them unfavorably but that wouldn't surprise me as you would need to show me anything he saw as favorably.

 

Re-reading your post, you mentioned the 'dance'.   This may be the Pace of Yu.  I mentioned that here:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/38613-3-the-xia-dynasty-2100-%E2%80%93-1600-bc/?hl=pace

 

With a link to:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu

 

Ah, sorry. With Eva Wong, it came at the beginning. I think it was chapter 1 and it was giving a history of the roots of Taoism before DDJ and ZZ.

 

Yes, it could well be the pace of Yu; it's been years since I've read her book.

 

Edward Schafer (1977:283-9, quoted by Pas 1998:294) explained the "step of Yü" as representing a walk among symbolic stars that injects supernatural energy into the practitioner. By pacing the nine stars of the Dipper, the Daoist priest is able to summon the polar deity Taiyi 太一 "Grand Monad (from which all things sprang)" to receive its power for blessing the community.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yubu#Present_day

 

This looks interesting. Sounds like an invocation of Taiyi from Polaris, rather than a journey to Polaris.
 

 

Your point of static vs dynamic is noted and known.  Maybe I'm still missing what is your point.   I think these are just movement related as the ten thousand move and yet come from Dao which is unmoved. 

 

No, that was it. You're not missing anything else. I just wanted to confirm the possibility that he was suggesting this.

Edited May 11, 2017 by morning dew

[Marblehead]

Yeah!  Don't forget to dance.

[dawei]

ETA: I just saw this random snippet. I didn't realise Wu shamans appeared in ZZ although not very favourably. I'll have a bit more of a read on the subject tomorrow and see if I can find anything else.

 

http://world-news-research.com/shamanism.html

 

Getting back to this... here are the references to 'shamans' based on Watson's translation:

 

 

 

The region of Ching-shih in Sung is fine for growing catalpas, cypresses, and mulberries. But those that are more than one or two arm-lengths around are cut down for people who want monkey perches; those that are three or four spans around are cut down for the ridgepoles of tall roofs;", and those that are seven or eight spans are cut down for the families of nobles or rich merchants who want side boards for coffins. So they never get to live out the years Heaven gave them, but are cut down in mid-journey by axes. This is the danger of being usable. In the Chieh sacrifice," oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles cannot be offered to the river. This is something all the shamans know, and hence they consider them inauspicious creatures. But the Holy Man for the same reason considers them highly auspicious.

 

 

 

In Cheng there was a shaman of the gods named Chi Hsien. He could tell whether men would live or die, survive or perish, be fortunate or unfortunate, live a long time or die young, and he would predict the year, month, week,8 and day as though he were a god himself. When the people of Cheng saw him, they dropped everything and ran out of his way. Lieh Tzu went to see him and was completely intoxicated. Returning, he said to Hu Tzu,9 "I used to think, Master, that your Way was perfect. But now I see there is something even higher!"

 

Hu Tzu said, "I have already showed you all the outward forms, but I haven't yet showed you the substance-and do you really think you have mastered this Way of mine? There may be a flock of hens but, if there is no rooster, how can they lay fertile eggs? You take what you know of the Way and wave it in the face of the world, expecting to be believed! This is the reason men can see right through you. Try bringing your shaman along next time and letting him get a look at me."

 

The next day Lieh Tzu brought the shaman to see Hu Tzu. When they had left the room, the shaman said, "I'm so sorry - your master is dying! There's no life left in him - he won't last the week. I saw something very strange-something like wet ashes!"

 

Lieh Tzu went back into the room, weeping and drenching the collar of his robe with tears, and reported this to Hu. Tzu.

 

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him with the Pattern of Earth - still and silent, nothing moving, nothing standing up. He probably saw in me the Workings of Virtue Closed Off.10 Try bringing him around again."

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "It certainly was lucky that your master met me! He's going to get better - he has all the signs of life! I could see the stirring of what had been closed off!"

 

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

 

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Heaven and Earth - no name or substance to it, but still the workings, coming up from the heels. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Good One.11 Try bringing him again."

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "Your master is never the same! I have no way to physiognomize him! If he will try to steady himself, then I will come and examine him again."

 

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

 

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as the Great Vastness Where Nothing Wins Out. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Balanced Breaths. Where the swirling waves12 gather there is an abyss; where the still waters gather there is an abyss; where the running waters gather there is an abyss. The abyss has nine names and I have shown him three.13 Try bringing him again."

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, but before the shaman had even come to a halt before Hu Tzu, his wits left him and he fled.

 

"Run after him!" said Hu Tzu, but though Lieh Tzu ran after him, he could not catch up. Returning, he reported to Hu Tzu, "He's vanished! He's disappeared! I couldn't catch up with him."

 

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Not Yet Emerged from My Source. I came at him empty, wriggling and turning, not knowing anything about `who' or `what,' now dipping and bending, now flowing in waves - that's why he ran away."

[flowing hands]

I like the rendition of Feng and English of this part of Zhuang Shi. Some of it I would change to make it more logical and realistic, but this part is principally about realising the Dao and the various entities that have obtained this realisation. It is somewhat a more descriptive verse than Lei Erh's very strong references to the obtainment of Immortality. One has to remember with Zhuang Shi, he was not mystical in his teachings and would not leave his reader comparatively to be misled by his writings, unlike Lei Erh, as we have seen, from the many emanations of what folks think he is saying in his verses. Shamans and Holymen are very much a part of ZS's writings, although he appears to think that the purer cultivator in his estimation came from those that studied true internal cultivation. But all these things are linked; many shamans were Holymen and many Holymen were shamans and many cultivators were shamans etc.

 

Daoists of course believe that many stars have a spirit attached to them and so have great significance to their practice. I have practiced for many years what is called 'star cultivation' and a whole lot of shamanistic and cultivator arts are linked to the stars depending on what sect you are.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by flowing hands

[dawei]

I like the rendition of Feng and English of this part of Zhuang Shi. Some of it I would change to make it more logical and realistic, but this part is principally about realising the Dao and the various entities that have obtained this realisation. It is somewhat a more descriptive verse than Lei Erh's very strong references to the obtainment of Immortality. One has to remember with Zhuang Shi, he was not mystical in his teachings and would not leave his reader comparatively to be misled by his writings, unlike Lei Erh, as we have seen, from the many emanations of what folks think he is saying in his verses. Shamans and Holymen are very much a part of ZS's writings, although he appears to think that the purer cultivator in his estimation came from those that studied true internal cultivation. But all these things are linked; many shamans were Holymen and many Holymen were shamans and many cultivators were shamans etc.

 

Daoists of course believe that many stars have a spirit attached to them and so have great significance to their practice. I have practiced for many years what is called 'star cultivation' and a whole lot of shamanistic and cultivator arts are linked to the stars depending on what sect you are.  

 

You have said much that I want to ask

 

1. Many are said in this section to have 'attained Dao'.   How would you define or describe what that means?

2. You said ZZ was not mystical.  I think most say he was more mystical and LZ was more earthly.   How would you describe the two of them in some detail?

3. Can you give LZ verses on obtaining enlightenment?  If this is asking too much here, we can maybe make it a separate thread.

4. you said:  "Shamans and Holymen are very much a part of ZS's writings, although he appears to think that the purer cultivator in his estimation came from those that studied true internal cultivation."

 

This seems a separate topic but I have to ask: In that time period of 300 BC, what was 'internal cultivation' ?  

 

How do you see the difference between Shamans and Holymen? 

 

5. Can you explain 'Star Cultivation' more ?  Maybe we should create another topic but this is something I have encountered over and over in my interest in Daoist cosmology. 

[morning dew]

The region of Ching-shih in Sung is fine for growing catalpas, cypresses, and mulberries. But those that are more than one or two arm-lengths around are cut down for people who want monkey perches; those that are three or four spans around are cut down for the ridgepoles of tall roofs;", and those that are seven or eight spans are cut down for the families of nobles or rich merchants who want side boards for coffins. So they never get to live out the years Heaven gave them, but are cut down in mid-journey by axes. This is the danger of being usable. In the Chieh sacrifice," oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles cannot be offered to the river. This is something all the shamans know, and hence they consider them inauspicious creatures. But the Holy Man for the same reason considers them highly auspicious.

 

I had a feeling if I looked up a different translation I would see a different word used for 'shaman'. 'Shaman(ism)' (like 'witch' and 'daoism' and 'pagan', etc.) is one of those words that seems to have all sorts of different meanings to different people, especially these days with the Internet.

 

Here, Legge translates the character 巫 ( wū wú ) as 'wizards':

 

In the same way the Jie (book) specifies oxen that have white foreheads, pigs that have turned-up snouts, and men that are suffering from piles, and forbids their being sacrificed to the Ho. The wizards know them by these peculiarities and consider them to be inauspicious, but spirit-like men consider them on this account to be very fortunate.

 

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=41964

 

Do we have any thoughts from Chinese readers as to the interpretation of this character?

 

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E5%B7%AB

 

 

You have said much that I want to ask

 

And you have asked much that I wanted to ask of flowing hands, especially star cultivation.

Edited May 12, 2017 by morning dew

[dawei]

I had a feeling if I looked up a different translation I would see a different word used for 'shaman'. 'Shaman(ism)' (like 'witch' and 'daoism' and 'pagan', etc.) is one of those words that seems to have all sorts of different meanings to different people, especially these days with the Internet.

 

I think you'll find these threads interesting... 

 

 

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

 

Heng (恒/恆) - Original Use in Ancient Times

 

Origin of Ru 儒 or Scholars (Confucian)

 

2. Xia Dynasty Background 2205 BC - 2117 BC

 

 

 

 

[flowing hands]

'Wu' actually really refers to a female witch, but the term is widely used to describe any persons who practice the arts associated with mediumship and the like. But also a designation is used afterwards to describe the type of witch for instance 'Wu nan'. Although in recent times there has been the emergence of the 'Tand Ki' in temples. But I like the reference of the word 'Fang Shi', which best described a 'dancing spirit possessed shaman', who pronounced the oracle.

I will endeavour to answer your questions when I have a little more time to give you a full consideration.

[morning dew]

 

I think you'll find these threads interesting... 

 

 

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

 

Heng (恒/恆) - Original Use in Ancient Times

 

Origin of Ru 儒 or Scholars (Confucian)

 

2. Xia Dynasty Background 2205 BC - 2117 BC

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, these look awesome. I'm slowly working my way through them.

 

 

'Wu' actually really refers to a female witch, but the term is widely used to describe any persons who practice the arts associated with mediumship and the like. But also a designation is used afterwards to describe the type of witch for instance 'Wu nan'. Although in recent times there has been the emergence of the 'Tand Ki' in temples. But I like the reference of the word 'Fang Shi', which best described a 'dancing spirit possessed shaman', who pronounced the oracle.

I will endeavour to answer your questions when I have a little more time to give you a full consideration.

 

Thanks, this is fascinating.

 

When you get a chance to answer the questions, I'd be interested to hear what number(s) the mediumship and possession of the Chinese shamans correspond to in this article: 

 

http://www.northernshamanism.org/levels-of-deity-assumption.html

Edited May 13, 2017 by morning dew

[flowing hands]

Virtually all of them!

[flowing hands]

On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 9:43 PM, dawei said:

 

You have said much that I want to ask

 

1. Many are said in this section to have 'attained Dao'.   How would you define or describe what that means?

2. You said ZZ was not mystical.  I think most say he was more mystical and LZ was more earthly.   How would you describe the two of them in some detail?

3. Can you give LZ verses on obtaining enlightenment?  If this is asking too much here, we can maybe make it a separate thread.

4. you said:  "Shamans and Holymen are very much a part of ZS's writings, although he appears to think that the purer cultivator in his estimation came from those that studied true internal cultivation."

 

This seems a separate topic but I have to ask: In that time period of 300 BC, what was 'internal cultivation' ?  

 

How do you see the difference between Shamans and Holymen? 

 

5. Can you explain 'Star Cultivation' more ?  Maybe we should create another topic but this is something I have encountered over and over in my interest in Daoist cosmology. 

 

1 I think this saying is a misguided use of words. One can obtain Dao in lots of things but it doesn't mean one has become an Immortal. What this section means is that they are fully 'realised', enlightened and have passed from the mortal world to pure energy.

2 Zhuang Shi was mystical in what he knew and believed and showed a lot of paradox in the world and how we perceive the world. How he explained this was straight forward. Lei Erh in his writings tries to get to the very bottom of spiritual Daoism and uses phrases and words that are not easily accessible to many and so this is widely misunderstood and interpreted in all different ways, so the meaning is lost. Although some would say that this was the point, but it is not the original intention.

3 Many verses, this is where deep knowledge comes in of Daoist self cultivation practices. If one hasn't practiced them, then it will be wasted words.

4 Holymen/women often lived alone in the mountains and were cultivators and could be shamans as well, having a spirit teacher. Shamans also did this, but most often lived within a village or just outside. Therefore they could use their practices to help the people of that village.

5 Star cultivation is a secret Daoist cultivation technique.

[Taoist Texts]

On 5/11/2017 at 1:46 PM, morning dew said:

Thanks, guys. Lots of interesting stuff for me to go over; I'm staggered as to how much decent information is on this forum.

 

 

This looks interesting. Sounds like an invocation of Taiyi from Polaris,

CASSIUS (kneeling)   Pardon, Caesar. Caesar, pardon. As low as to thy foot doth Cassius fall To beg enfranchisement for Publius Cimber.

65 70 75

CAESAR I could be well moved if I were as you. If I could pray to move, prayers would move me. But I am constant as the northern star, Of whose true-fixed and resting quality There is no fellow in the firmament. The skies are painted with unnumbered sparks. They are all fire and every one doth shine, But there’s but one in all doth hold his place. So in the world. 'Tis furnished well with men, And men are flesh and blood, and apprehensive, Yet in the number I do know but one That unassailable holds on his rank, Unshaked of motion. And that I am he Let me a little show it even in this: That I was constant Cimber should be banished, And constant do remain to keep him so.