Forsaking yourself day by day

[taoteching99]

This is something ive been thinking ,

 

" How do you forsake yourself day by day , (or everytime this idea comes to conscious mind,how do you do it?) even moment to moment ? "

 

 

The idea comes from a recorded talk i listened some time ago,( dont recalled the specifics of the talk) the talk is abt the practice of selflessness.

 

1. How do you practice selflessness? Not just in some external ways (donating money to beggar,social service,humanitarian work etc...),that is how you ACT selfless,but how you BE selfless?

 

2. How to BE selfless as much as possible,so that over time it becomes natural ? Not just selfless in social situation,but in all,such as when you are walking alone in the park,driving, how do you (try to )be selfless?

 

DAOISM speak abt natural ,effortless living(action), is this the same thing?that is to say,the giving up of ego/self and live moment to moment from the point of view of 'reduced'self as much as possible. For a fully realized sage (or long time practitioner) this is natural, but for most of us, this may be 'effortful'? 

[thursday]

Trying to be selfless seems like gets in the way of your goal a bit, ironically.. You have got to start with where you are and for most of us that is far from being saintly, well at least speaking for myself!

 

It seems like over time you get to see more closely the results of actions taken in daily life and meditation, which gradually give you the insight to set aside "self centeredness", not because you want to fit into the spiritual idea of saintliness, but because you'll be curious enough to see what it does for you to make changes..

 

Time and time again my teacher had said that the obvious, mundane stuff has all the elements right there to progress.. It's just that we often expect special effects like in that new Marvel series Iron Fist, so we struggle because of distractions..

 

When walking, try to walk with mindfulness, notice what is there, like your body moving, heat, cold, frustration, hope, happy, sad.. Nothing special to look for and when you do look for something special, remind yourself of that as another thing that is happening, not bad or good, just there and looking further..

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If you try to leave yourself then it looks like smb fell in a hole, then ran home for the stairs to get out of the hole back... Mean that you can try to forse to refuse from your ego only using your mind... do you see? The only way to come to pure awareness that seems to me correct is to improve the body so that it is harmonized and thus stops to stimulate mind to produce spam thoughts. This have been discussed in the threads about shi shen and others.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Marblehead]

Being selfless is an empty concept.  Who is wanting to be selfless?  The self, of course.

 

To forsake one's self is rather stupid, IMO.

 

Even Saint Teresa didn't forsake herself.  She took care of herself so that she could help others.

 

You want to help others?  Get your shit together so that you have the energy and means to do so.  That means you have to be selfish for a while.

[Orion]

You already are selfless.

 

Try or don't try, the truth is the truth.

 

You're too caught up in concepts.

[Tall Panda]

I suppose that depends on what you actually mean by being selfless as, in my opinion, everyone so far has spoken on a different meaning of the word selfless. If you can would elaborate on what you actually mean as what you have written seems clouded. However I would first suggest you research different views on the matter as I believe the cloudiness comes from you yourself not being sure what you mean but rather being fixated on a vague idea introduced by another.

 

I apologize in advance if I have brought offense to anyone as I tend to be either too vague or too blunt and bring unintended offense through misunderstanding.

[Orion]

I know what Panda is trying to say about semantics... but the OP is "trying" to be selfless. All that selfless really means is that you're not coming from self when you go about your daily business. The societal definitions of selflessness are all about being kind and generous, but they are typically in self-aggrandizing ways, i.e. people do them to feel good about themselves.

 

But there is root awareness always at work that does not attach itself to anything, including a "self". We glimpse it through meditation practice when "self" is sublimated back into it. That root is always present, whether a self is taking credit or not. So "trying" to be selfless is like "trying" to be empty: you're already empty. You're already the Dao.

 

We see this dilemma when people meditate and then ask how they maintain that state of emptiness once they leave the meditation. The remedy is realizing that the meditation never ends, you just decide to focus awareness on arbitrary fixations, like how to be empty. Do you realize the irony of a self trying to be selfless? 

[Tall Panda]

"At first, I saw mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers. Then, I saw mountains were not mountains and rivers were not rivers. Finally, I see mountains again as mountains, and rivers again as rivers." - 青原惟信禪師

 

OP wants a set of instructions in order to be selfless therefore, imo, explaining the that the dao is everything and you are the dao therefore selfless is the same as a Buddhist approaching the same problem with you are a bodhisattva therefore selfless. Very few people will truly gain an understanding from that. Most imo will become frustrated and think "you taught me nothing" because well, we haven't taught them anything it's part of their dao they just need to realise it. That or they will gain a false sense of understanding.

 

In talking of semantics I was also referencing the individuals understanding and views on the singularity duality principles. I'm not sure if I'm making sence but what im referring to by understanding can be best seen in the difference between the advice given by Orion and by Marblehead where, again this is just my opinion and also very hard to word, Marblehead focuses more on the self and cultivating the means to do as you feel is needed but Orion's (is realy hard to explain with words because english wasn't made for this :'( ) is a sense of "it is" in the same meaning of the last line of the quote by 青原惟信禪師. Both have the same meaning but the difference is because they are their own personal understandings of the dao if that makes any sense.

 

What I'm trying to say is that OP and any else who have this problem and aren't automatically(that sounds like the wrong word but I can't think of better) able to understand the truth upon having it explained need to come to an understanding themselves as each person is different so how selfless they are and how and when they express it is based off their experiences and how they interpret them. So my advice would be to explore other peoples understanding while always questioning yourself on how it interacts with you and use these changes to grow and understand your dao.

[Phosphorose]

 

 

"At first, I saw mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers. Then, I saw mountains were not mountains and rivers were not rivers. Finally, I see mountains again as mountains, and rivers again as rivers." - 青原惟信禪師

 

I like that Tall Panda. Could be interpreted to mean, at first selflessness may not be natural, but then it becomes a part of you over time. A teacher of mine said that you wear your hat on your head, then as a aspirant you wear your hat upside down then as a master you wear it right side up again.

 

 

 

The remedy is realizing that the meditation never ends, you just decide to focus awareness on arbitrary fixations, like how to be empty. Do you realize the irony of a self trying to be selfless? 

 

I think you're right Orion - it takes a constant awareness to always keep some distance from thoughts that might re-identify you with the body and mind. Throughout the day it takes effort to stay selfless. It is true it is ironic, and sort of a catch 22 for the self to want to be selfless, but the effort has to start somewhere and no one knows anything beyond the ego at first.

 

Therefore motives have to start impure, but you do your best and then you start to get glimpses of identification with something beyond the body. Then selflessness starts to come naturally, with a lot of work and awareness throughout the day.

 

Nice question taoteching99.

 

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Edited March 23, 2017 by Phosphorose