It`s sad to look at Westerners

[MooNiNite]

Thank you.   Yes, no matter what "civilized" source you go to, the party line is always the same -- to create a picture of the blessings of civilization and perils of natural ways of life.  How else would they justify exterminating them nearly everywhere, and  thwarting and damaging them everywhere else.  My question was rhetorical.   

 

I mean they seem to die from infection. Modern hospitals probably increase life expectancy to some degree. 

 

Also, nature isn't so forgiving.

[MooNiNite]

I used to feel bad for westerners that worked salary jobs like prisoners their whole life, many dying before getting their retirement money, but then I realized many of them live in houses and have beautiful families.

[thelerner]

I used to feel bad for westerners that worked salary jobs like prisoners their whole life, many dying before getting their retirement money, but then I realized many of them live in houses and have beautiful families.

Good point.  We play the game, for our families. 

And because its (almost) the only game in town.

[Taomeow]

I mean they seem to die from infection. Modern hospitals probably increase life expectancy to some degree. 

 

Also, nature isn't so forgiving.

 

Infections that kill significant numbers of people are the result of urban living, according to paleoanthropologists.  And then urban dwellers drag them into a tribal setting and indigenous people who have no immunity to cramped-living-bred urban pathogens they'd never been exposed to proceed to die from everything the "civilized" man dragged in.  And the "civilized"  man says, see? -- you can't survive and thrive by your way of life, you need ours.  Except the moment he's there, "their" way of life is contaminated with "our" pathogens (to name just one factor) and it's a travesty to extrapolate the conditions "after" the contact onto the conditions "before."  For a quick read, check this out:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-546608/Four-members-lost-Peruvian-tribe-die-infected-common-cold-British-TV-crew.html

 

and this:

 

http://www.survivalinternational.org/articles/3106-uncontacted-tribes-the-threats

 

This tragic story has always been the same everywhere.  Something to be proud of I guess...  we have hospitals.  We no longer have people who didn't need them for a million years, but that's OK.  The important thing is, we are proud of our accomplishments and feel superior to those we wiped out. 

[silent thunder]

[MooNiNite]

Infections that kill significant numbers of people are the result of urban living, according to paleoanthropologists.  And then urban dwellers drag them into a tribal setting and indigenous people who have no immunity to cramped-living-bred urban pathogens they'd never been exposed to proceed to die from everything the "civilized" man dragged in.  And the "civilized"  man says, see? -- you can't survive and thrive by your way of life, you need ours.  Except the moment he's there, "their" way of life is contaminated with "our" pathogens (to name just one factor) and it's a travesty to extrapolate the conditions "after" the contact onto the conditions "before."  

 

So you would argue that before the human population grew, and before urban/suburban cities developed, humans were more healthy and the lifespan of humans was much longer? 

 

Western hospitals are primarily only good for emergencies.

[Marblehead]

My question was rhetorical.   

 

Here at Dao Bums all rhetorical questions will be responded to.

[Nungali]

Thank you once again Lois for shedding light on this so, so complex world we live in.  Without your thoughtful comments I would indeed be in HOT WATER.

 

Peace and love and praying for a world without petty boundaries.

 

Apech Euro-remain Social Justice for all.

 

Justice.

 

Cat justice ;

 

 

[Taomeow]

So you would argue that before the human population grew, and before urban/suburban cities developed, humans were more healthy and the lifespan of humans was much longer?

 

Yes.  If you want to take a closer look at how I arrived at this conclusion, here's the books that provided some of the first stepping stones for me, many moons ago:

 

Eco Homo: How the Human Being Emerged from the Cataclysmic History of the Earth Noel T. Boaz (ISBN 0-465-01803-3)

 

Evolving Health: The Origins of Illness and How the Modern World Is Making Us Sick by Noel T. Boaz (ISBN 0-471-35261-6)

 

The author, Noel T. Boaz, is a biological anthropologist, physician, and founder of the Virginia Museum of Natural History, the Integrative Centers for Science and Medicine, and the International Institute for Human Evolutionary Research.

[gendao]

at first look it would appear tribal people are so healthy,

 

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/305411/amazon-tribe-has-worlds-healthiest-arteries

 

then you realize they have a life expectancy of 42 years..

Half of all Tsimane documented deaths are from infections and parasitic disease. Most have intestinal helminths or pathogenic protozoa; anemia is highly prevalent, and physical growth is stunted.

They are used to the perils of their environment – Xina relates how his own grandmother was killed and eaten by a jaguar

World's Oldest Person Found Thriving in the Amazon

Maria Lucimar Pereira, an indigenous Amazonian belonging to the Kaxinawá tribe of western Brazil, will soon be celebrating her birthday -- her 121st birthday, to be exact. The truth behind Pereira's remarkable longevity was recently discovered by the Brazilian government while performing a routine review of birth records -- which, in her case, date back to 1890 -- making her the world's oldest living person. And the best part of all? Pereira credits her long-life to an all-natural diet derived wholly from the Amazon

The centenarian, who will turn 121 years old on Saturday, lives in a remote corner of the Amazon, in the Brazilian state of Acre, where she practices a traditional way of life that stretches back for centuries, free of many modern amenities many people half her age often think they cannot live without.

Pereira credits her long-life to an active, healthy lifestyle, in addition to a diet rich in locally grown meats, fruits, and vegetables gathered in the forests around her home -- free of the extra salt, sugar, and preservatives so commonly found in foods around the world. Her all-natural diet, along with frequent walks around town, has allowed Pereira to thrive while others, many years her junior, do not.

"All too often we witness the negative effects forced change can have on indigenous peoples," says Stephen Corry of Survival International. "It is refreshing to see a community that has retained strong links to its ancestral land and enjoyed the undeniable benefits of this."

Because of their natural lifestyles, their innate health seems to be superb.  However, their harsh environments full of pathogens and predators are usually what eventually do them in.

 

But, this is also why indigenous natives never overpopulate, degenerate, and destroy their local ecosystems, much less the world...  It seems to WEIRD humans that overpopulation of any species can be a problem - except for...humans, lmao...

[Taomeow]

Overpopulation is yet another myth...

 

https://wearechange.org/overpopulation-myth/

 

Quote: "Today, there is approximately 7,268,730,000 people on earth. The landmass of Texas is 268,820 square miles (7,494,271,488,000 square feet). If we divide 7,494,271,488,000 square feet by 7,268,730,000 people, we get 1031 square feet per person. This is enough space for everyone on earth to live in a townhouse while altogether fitting on a landmass the size of Texas.  And we’re not even accounting for the average four-person family who would most likely share a home." 

 

It's not an overpopulated planet.  It's a planet overburdened by mismanagement of unimaginable magnitude.  The recipients of this mismanagement have had too much wool pulled over their eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gendao]

Overpopulation is yet another myth...

 

https://wearechange.org/overpopulation-myth/

 

Quote: "Today, there is approximately 7,268,730,000 people on earth. The landmass of Texas is 268,820 square miles (7,494,271,488,000 square feet). If we divide 7,494,271,488,000 square feet by 7,268,730,000 people, we get 1031 square feet per person. This is enough space for everyone on earth to live in a townhouse while altogether fitting on a landmass the size of Texas.  And we’re not even accounting for the average four-person family who would most likely share a home." 

 

It's not an overpopulated planet.  It's a planet overburdened by mismanagement of unimaginable magnitude.  The recipients of this mismanagement have had too much wool pulled over their eyes.

LMFAO - based on some dumfvck WEIRD scientists calculating living spaces like people are stackable cargo boxes...

 

Based on their calculations, each person could live entirely enclosed within a 1031 sqft biosphere?

 

IN REALITY, you also have to take into account natural waterways and water supplies, land required to grow and support food, enough space to dilute all our waste streams, etc, etc...  Not to mention the VAST amount of additional resources required to build all the technology WEIRDos use in life.  It's not simply a matter of where you lay your head at night, ffs.

 

Sure, I can SLEEP in just a little tent.  But, I can't get enough clean water, bathe, grow/catch food, build a fire & cook, eat, sleep, piss, sh*t, etc all in a little tent!  Not to mention live a full-on WEIRD lifestyle!

 

Just for comparison, another apex predator like a tiger needs around...

A tiger’s home range size can vary a lot depending on the place you’re looking at. One study in Thailand found that male tigers’ ranges were around 267–294 km (166-183 mi) and female’s ranges were around 70–84 km⁷ (44-52 mi).  But a study in Bangladesh found that a couple females had an average home range of 14.2 km² (5.5 mi²), which is much smaller.

And as you said earlier, the higher the population density, the greater the filth and diseases too...  So basically, more space is always better because it's all a zero-sum pie on this planet.

 

Or are you arguing that NO species can overpopulate any area? 

Or...is it only somehow impossible for humans to...but not any other species?

Rise in deer population and their grazing habits prevent forests from maturing, researchers have found.

The study, conducted by researchers at Cornell University, found that deer prefer seeds of native woody plants and reject invasive ones. This selective eating leads to loss of native vegetation and helps foreign plants take over forest land.

Grasses establish themselves in a piece of land. As the forest grows, Small herbs and shrubs replace grasses. Later, woody plants and trees take over the area. Researchers have now found that deer prevent the growth of woody plants.

"Deer are slowing down forest succession or natural establishment. In fact, the deer are preventing forests from establishing,"

Edited March 28, 2017 by gendao

[MooNiNite]

Yes.  If you want to take a closer look at how I arrived at this conclusion, here's the books that provided some of the first stepping stones for me, many moons ago:

Museum of Natural History, the Integrative Centers for Science and Medicine, and the International Institute for Human Evolutionary Research.

 

I think sleeping grounded to the earth, the idea of yin chi, to be most important. It would seem they are always grounded.

Overwork probably isn't good either.  I mean, most of my money goes towards rent. So getting rid of that would just open up so much time.. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by MooNiNite

[mvingon]

Hi Lois. I agree. The Mahatma said, "When the whole world understands that enough is enough, the whole world will have enough."

 

Thanks for reminding me of the material wealth I have, yet. I do hope my fellow compatriots understand that wealth isn't solely material.

[Marblehead]

 

 

 

Yes!  Very Nietzschean!

[silent thunder]

Found this link in my email this morning...
 
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170317132004.htm
 
 

[Taomeow]

LMFAO - based on some dumfvck WEIRD scientists calculating living spaces like people are stackable cargo boxes...

 

Based on their calculations, each person could live entirely enclosed within a 1031 sqft biosphere?

 

IN REALITY, you also have to take into account natural waterways and water supplies, land required to grow and support food, enough space to dilute all our waste streams, etc, etc...  Not to mention the VAST amount of additional resources required to build all the technology WEIRDos use in life.  It's not simply a matter of where you lay your head at night, ffs.

 

Sure, I can SLEEP in just a little tent.  But, I can't get enough clean water, bathe, grow/catch food, build a fire & cook, eat, sleep, piss, sh*t, etc all in a little tent!  Not to mention live a full-on WEIRD lifestyle!

 

Just for comparison, another apex predator like a tiger needs around...

And as you said earlier, the higher the population density, the greater the filth and diseases too...  So basically, more space is always better because it's all a zero-sum pie on this planet.

 

Or are you arguing that NO species can overpopulate any area? 

Or...is it only somehow impossible for humans to...but not any other species?

 

Don't strain yourself into being amused.  Sometimes it's easier to just get the message intended to illustrate a point.  You did understand that it wasn't a literal invitation to herd the population of the earth into Texas, didn't you?..   C'mon, admit it.  You are a bright guy. 

[mvingon]

Good point.  We play the game, for our families. 

And because its (almost) the only game in town.

A kid local to my new place of residence recently tossed out the adage, "hate the game, not the player."

 

"Without the player, there would be no game," I observed.

 

Anyone here read <u>Cat's Cradle</u>? It was written to illustrate another point, but it nicely illustrates this one, too.

[mvingon]

Good point.  We play the game, for our families. 

And because its (almost) the only game in town.

A kid local to my new place of residence recently tossed out the adage, "hate the game, not the player."

 

"Without the player, there would be no game," I observed.

 

Anyone here read Cat's Cradle? It was written to illustrate another point, but it nicely illustrates this one, too.

[Marblehead]

Don't hate.  It causes stress, stress causes heart attacks.

[thelerner]

A kid local to my new place of residence recently tossed out the adage, "hate the game, not the player."

 

"Without the player, there would be no game," I observed.

Are there many realistic avenues in the U.S, if you want to avoid the game of Capitalism.  Not many, few good ones.  If you don't play the game, how exactly do you get food, shelter, etc. in our society?   Government welfare, live off the street, communes,..?  Few choices.  

 

I read about a very 'Zen' man who lived in California, had a small hut, did odd jobs when he wanted, other then that hung out with friends, lived cheaply, spouted lots of philosophy, not a bad life.  Easier to do in a warm climate.  Without the talent for odd jobs it would be hard.  I picked up hitch hiker who was a hobo.  We had a great talk, he was migrating to Southern California for the winter, but he had hard life. 

 

I don't think there's anything bad or evil about working for a living.  Probably most systems/games require it.  The west might have too much emphasis on chasing money. 

[Brian]

Are there many realistic avenues in the U.S, if you want to avoid the game of Capitalism.  Not many, few good ones.  If you don't play the game, how exactly do you get food, shelter, etc. in our society?   Government welfare, live off the street, communes,..?  Few choices.  

 

I read about a very 'Zen' man who lived in California, had a small hut, did odd jobs when he wanted, other then that hung out with friends, lived cheaply, spouted lots of philosophy, not a bad life.  Easier to do in a warm climate.  Without the talent for odd jobs it would be hard.  I picked up hitch hiker who was a hobo.  We had a great talk, he was migrating to Southern California for the winter, but he had hard life. 

 

I don't think there's anything bad or evil about working for a living.  Probably most systems/games require it.  The west might have too much emphasis on chasing money.

It's easy to do if you really have your heart set on it! Problem is, most people who say they want that life also want "stuff." Move with the weather or live in public housing, use public health facilities, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, Medicaid, SNAP, state/county/municipal programs, join a commune/convent/monastery -- lots of options! Heck, you can still get a free "Obamaphone" and Internet access is available at most public libraries. Might have to be disabled or take some sort of vows to continue some of these options indefinitely but there are lots of options. You can just walk into a national forest, for that matter, and live off the land. That's just in the US, of course -- there are lots of nations which claim to be "Socialist" for those who are willing to travel...

 

Thing is, though, most people are gonna want more goods & services provided to them at someone else's expense (just like in "real anti-capitalism").

Edited March 28, 2017 by Brian

[Brian]

As an FYI, as of 2010, the Census Bureau was reporting about 20% of Americans were disabled and about half of them were severely disabled. Since then, numbers are hard to come by but we know that the SSI disability rolls have increased dramatically and the Federal government currently pays out in the neighborhood of a quarter-trillion a year.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Brian

[thelerner]

True, sponging off Capitalism, is still taking part in it.  Matter of fact its making yourself even more reliant on the system.

[C T]

imagine in years to come, the term 'citizen' could be replaced by the awful-sounding 'economic dependent'. 

 

Economic dependentship. Wouldn't be too surprised because nowadays being a citizen confers nothing unless one is also contributing to the economy in order to be means-tested to receive something back. I reckon this is now a reality in many first-world countries. Its been shaping 21st century Ireland anyway.