It`s sad to look at Westerners

[Marblehead]

 

May all sufferers get well soon. 

I love that and just wanted to repeat it.

[windwalker]

So am I to understand that we are not part of the system that you speak of.

[Taomeow]

So am I to understand that we are not part of the system that you speak of.

 

We were, always and until a second ago, in terms of our overall time on this planet.

 

Things went very wrong very recently.  I don't believe we did it to ourselves, anymore than any domesticated animal did it to itself.   We are different from other animals sharing our plight in that we were forced to build our own cages and our own slaughterhouses before (or alongside) building them for the rest of live creatures on earth.  This eventually (a few thousand years later) led us to believe that we chose to build them.  We were told we had a horrible life when we were part of the self-regulating system known as planet earth, and that we're much better off living in a zoo, or on a factory farm, except when it's built by us for for us, we call it a city, a country, an empire.  We were taught to call these developments "progress."  And now we firmly believe that's what it is.  But we're also starting to notice that something is way off with our progress, and obviously blaming ourselves, since we believe we did it to ourselves to begin with, and it was worth doing, only with some minor modifications.  E.g. electing this rather than that president would promptly return us to the shining path of progress as we think it should be.  Or changing this technology for that technology.  "Advancing" more.  Stuff like that.       

 

While I believe we are the outcome of, to quote the renowned zoologist, ornithologist, ethologist, and animal psychologist Konrad Lorenz, "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans."  

[gendao]

Natural systems are self-regulating.  There's no such thing as "overpopulation" by any species in any environment for any reason unless the environment is compromised.  Have never been.  There's peak population growth in any species finding itself at an advantageous moment, followed by decline because of multiple (thousands) self-regulating mechanisms built into the natural systems. 

 

Just one example out of thousands -- still my favorite because it was the first one I learned about, many years ago.  In nature, wild sheep eat clover; when there's plenty of clover, there's more and more sheep because they have plenty to eat.  When there's more and more sheep, clover gets overeaten and starts declining.  So then, in response to a complex system of signals and feedback loops plants and animals in nature always exchange, clover gets the message "we are being eaten too much" and responds by producing phytoestrogens that specifically inhibit reproduction in sheep.  Next season, there's still less clover to eat, but there's fewer sheep to eat it, because clover intervened in order to bring sheep fertility down for this season. Which is why no sheep starve this season, or any other.  Fewer sheep eat less clover, clover population recovers, consequently clover downregulates production of sheep-sterilizing phytoestrogens (resources on making them are not wasted when it is no longer needed), consequently next season there's more little lambs born.  And so on.  More sheep, less clover; less clover, more sterilizing phytoestrogens it packs; more sterilizing phytoestrogens, fewer sheep; fewer sheep, more clover; more clover, more sheep...  and so on and on and on.  For millions of years.  

 

I say that unmolested systems just do not follow the same disastrous paths as systems tampered with. 

 

We are a tampered with system.  To ascribe any which peculiarities (like overpopulation or poverty or pollution or sickness or what have you) of a system where no stone has been left unturned in the effort to demolish all natural self-regulatory mechanisms, of a system where everything is off, nothing is balanced or self-regulating, to any other cause than this meticulous breakage of all natural mechanisms is...

Wait, so you are now arguing that:

1.  Overpopulation only occurs when Nature's own self-regulating mechanisms (including biochemical sterilization warfare) have been compromised.

2.  Our (ecological) system has now been severely and completely compromised.

3.  Therefore, overpopulation is now entirely possible?

 

Which is exactly what I have been saying too all along...  So capiche & case closed, then?

AMURICA NUKED Bikini Atoll EVERY*FVCKING*DAY for 12 YEARS!!!!!

Edited April 4, 2017 by gendao

[windwalker]

We were, always and until a second ago, in terms of our overall time on this planet.

 

Things went very wrong very recently.  I don't believe we did it to ourselves, anymore than any domesticated animal did it to itself.   We are different from other animals sharing our plight in that we were forced to build our own cages and our own slaughterhouses before (or alongside) building them for the rest of live creatures on earth.  This eventually (a few thousand years later) led us to believe that we chose to build them.  We were told we had a horrible life when we were part of the self-regulating system known as planet earth, and that we're much better off living in a zoo, or on a factory farm, except when it's built by us for for us, we call it a city, a country, an empire.  We were taught to call these developments "progress."  And now we firmly believe that's what it is.  But we're also starting to notice that something is way off with our progress, and obviously blaming ourselves, since we believe we did it to ourselves to begin with, and it was worth doing, only with some minor modifications.  E.g. electing this rather than that president would promptly return us to the shining path of progress as we think it should be.  Or changing this technology for that technology.  "Advancing" more.  Stuff like that.       

 

While I believe we are the outcome of, to quote the renowned zoologist, ornithologist, ethologist, and animal psychologist Konrad Lorenz, "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans."  

 

 

You post is very confused. Your speaking of times and  places you've never lived in nor have experienced.  You'r posting from a device that is a product of the tech. that has allowed more people

to live a better and longer life than at any other time in history.

 

If you feel so strongly about building your own "cage" nothings  preventing you or anyone else from escaping it, returning to the mythical garden of Eden that some may feel once was.... Yes, reading some of the postings here seems many have become domesticated, hopefully the new Presidents administration can help to change this.   

 

It may be already to late

Edited April 4, 2017 by windwalker

[windwalker]

 

always find memes like this odd.

Who would be this "us" to note what the world be with out. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by windwalker

[Taomeow]

Wait, so you are now arguing that:

1.  Overpopulation only occurs when Nature's own self-regulating mechanisms (including biochemical sterilization warfare) have been compromised.

2.  Our (ecological) system has now been severely and completely compromised.

3.  Therefore, overpopulation is now entirely possible?

 

Which is exactly what I have been saying too all along...  So capiche & case closed, then?

 

 

 

 

  No, it's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying it's another mythological problem aimed to distract from the real problem.  The real problem is, the earth will be unlivable for any number of people, seven billion or seven million or seven thousand, if the real problem is not fixed.  And removing any number of people from the face of the earth will not fix it.  And fixing it would allow a vast larger number to live a high quality life than are currently present on the planet.  That's what I'm saying. 

 

I need to end this conversation, especially now that windwalker has chimed in, I feel guilty for wasting my time on tackling something this big via a medium so ill-equipped to contain it.  May I reference a couple of books instead?  How about "A Language Older Than Words," by Derrick Jensen -- I read it a long time ago, and explored its themes quite extensively since then, so instead of me trying to post the unpostable, why don't I leave you with this reading suggestion.  Oh, and the latest that made quite an impression that concerns itself with sustainability and can give you some new ideas as to how many people, animals and plants the earth is really equipped to support if not mismanaged so vilely, was "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith (don't worry about the title implying it's of interest only to vegetarians or anti-vegetarians -- that story is  just the springboard from which it dives into some greater depths worth exploring...) 

[windwalker]

 

 

I need to end this conversation, especially now that windwalker has chimed in,

No need, we all have view points even if they'er different. 

Why not just address issues that some have brought forward that others 

may or may not agree with....

 

Of course if its a "waste of time"  then by all means "time" is not something that 

any one should waste...

 

I hope all are doing something that they enjoy or find interesting with the time they have....

Edited April 4, 2017 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

Ironically, the song "No Time" by Guess Who just started playing.

 

But let's be real here, it's not only the West that is having problems.  China has over 2 billion people, India has over 1 billion people, the geology and environment in many parts of Africa cannot support the human populations.

 

And yes, the info gendao posted is valid in this discussion.  The planet's resources are finite.  Population growth seems to be infinite.  Something is going to break.

[Brian]

 

always find memes like this odd.

Who would be this "us" to note what the world be with out.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Brian

[windwalker]

"But let's be real here, it's not only the West that is having problems.  China has over 2 billion people, India has over 1 billion people, the geology and environment in many parts of Africa cannot support the human populations."

 

Of the the 3  mentioned China is really not having the same problems as the other 2,  India and Africa,,,

 

Think about why this is so,,,,nothing to really to do with the geology or environment...

 

Lets keep it real

Edited April 4, 2017 by windwalker

[ralis]

"But let's be real here, it's not only the West that is having problems.  China has over 2 billion people, India has over 1 billion people, the geology and environment in many parts of Africa cannot support the human populations."

 

Of the the 3  mentioned China is really not having the same problems as the other 2,  India and Africa,,,

 

Think about why this is so,,,,nothing to really to do with the geology or environment...

 

Lets keep it real

 

 

China's population is 1.357 billion.

[Apech]

According to this article in the Economist the growing population is masking the opposite - a fall in birth rate starting with the more prosperous countries and gradually spreading world wide until in around 2020 we will reach only replacement levels (2.1) globally:

 

http://www.economist.com/node/14743589

 

SOMETIME in the next few years (if it hasn't happened already) the world will reach a milestone: half of humanity will be having only enough children to replace itself. That is, the fertility rate of half the world will be 2.1 or below. This is the “replacement level of fertility”, the magic number that causes a country's population to slow down and eventually to stabilise. According to the United Nations population division, 2.9 billion people out of a total of 6.5 billion were living in countries at or below this point in 2000-05. The number will rise to 3.4 billion out of 7 billion in the early 2010s and to over 50% in the middle of the next decade. The countries include not only Russia and Japan but Brazil, Indonesia, China and even south India.

 

The move to replacement-level fertility is one of the most dramatic social changes in history. It manifested itself in the violent demonstrations by students against their clerical rulers in Iran this year. It almost certainly contributed to the rising numbers of middle-class voters who backed the incumbent governments of Indonesia and India. It shows up in rural Malaysia in richer, emptier villages surrounded by mechanised farms. And everywhere, it is changing traditional family life by enabling women to work and children to be educated. At a time when Malthusian alarms are ringing because of environmental pressures, falling fertility may even provide a measure of reassurance about global population trends.

 

The fertility rate is a hypothetical, almost conjectural number. It is not the same as the birth rate, which is the number of children born in a year as a share of the total population. Rather, it represents the number of children an average woman is likely to have during her childbearing years, conventionally taken to be 15-49.

 

 

If there were no early deaths, the replacement rate would be 2.0 (actually, fractionally higher because fewer girls are born than boys). Two parents are replaced by two children. But a daughter may die before her childbearing years, so the figure has to allow for early mortality. Since child mortality is higher in poor countries, the replacement fertility rate is higher there, too. In rich countries it is about 2.1. In poor ones it can go over 3.0. The global average is 2.33. By about 2020, the global fertility rate will dip below the global replacement rate for the first time.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Apech

[C T]

China's population is 1.357 billion.

Thats the 2013 figure. Currently stands at 1.386 billion... and counting 

 

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/

[gendao]

No, it's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying it's another mythological problem aimed to distract from the real problem.  The real problem is, the earth will be unlivable for any number of people, seven billion or seven million or seven thousand, if the real problem is not fixed.  And removing any number of people from the face of the earth will not fix it.  And fixing it would allow a vast larger number to live a high quality life than are currently present on the planet.  That's what I'm saying. 

 

I need to end this conversation, especially now that windwalker has chimed in, I feel guilty for wasting my time on tackling something this big via a medium so ill-equipped to contain it.  May I reference a couple of books instead?  How about "A Language Older Than Words," by Derrick Jensen -- I read it a long time ago, and explored its themes quite extensively since then, so instead of me trying to post the unpostable, why don't I leave you with this reading suggestion.  Oh, and the latest that made quite an impression that concerns itself with sustainability and can give you some new ideas as to how many people, animals and plants the earth is really equipped to support if not mismanaged so vilely, was "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith (don't worry about the title implying it's of interest only to vegetarians or anti-vegetarians -- that story is  just the springboard from which it dives into some greater depths worth exploring...) 

In the main premise of Jensen's book, he compares and connects the abuse that he endured in his childhood home to the abuse that takes place in the world as a whole. He discusses what causes abuse as well as some of the reasons why abuse continues to occur. Jensen also talks of the ways that those who are abused protect themselves from their feeling that the world has deceived them.

Jensen goes on the write about the path he has traveled to his own recovery. This path has led him close to a world that has also been abused and continues to be abused. As a result of their similar abuses, Jensen forms a connection with the world and its inhabitants. Jensen traces the thoughts that have caused men to take advantage of the earth and abuse others as they have.

this controversial examination exposes the destructive history of agriculture—causing the devastation of prairies and forests, driving countless species extinct, altering the climate, and destroying the topsoil

Hmm, based on their synopses, it sounds like you believe it's just unnatural, "civilized" lifestyles that are the problem, and not humans ourselves, per se?

 

Well I've already repeatedly stated that WEIRD lifestyles ARE a big part of the problem - but that is also not mutually-exclusive with human overpopulation (see non-WEIRD Africa, India, etc).  Especially given that most of us are NEVER VOLUNTARILY GOING BACK to ecologically-sustainable hunter/gatherer lifestyles.  In fact, we keep on progressing further and further away from that at breakneck pace now (already entering synthetic digital/GMO dystopia).

What could pass for a dystopian vision of the workplace is almost routine at the Swedish startup hub Epicenter. The company offers to implant its workers and startup members with microchips the size of grains of rice that function as swipe cards: to open doors, operate printers, or buy smoothies with a wave of the hand.

The injections have become so popular that workers at Epicenter hold parties for those willing to get implanted.

"People ask me; 'Are you chipped?' and I say; 'Yes, why not,'" said Fredric Kaijser, 47, the chief experience officer at Epicenter.

And for me it's just a matter of I like to try new things and just see it as more of an enabler and what that would bring into the future."

The implants have become so popular that Epicenter workers stage monthly events where attendees have the option of being "chipped" for free.

Sandra Haglof, 25, who works for Eventomatic, an events company that works with Epicenter, has had three piercings before, and her left hand barely shakes as Osterlund injects the small chip.

"I want to be part of the future," she laughs.

And even if we all magically did revert back to hunter/gatherer lifestyles - our planet wouldn't be able to sustain our current population as-is in balance with the rest of Nature.  If we suddenly pulled the plug on all our technological interference - we'd find out what the true, natural carrying capacity of our environment is!  Because this rock is simply not designed to support an INFINITE number of humans - even if we were all living like indigenous animals!

 

Therefore, human overpopulation and WEIRD lifestyles ARE both clearly of grave concern to the rest of this planet, now.  If a locale is overpopulated with non-WEIRD humans - that's an environmental problem.  If a locale has just a few WEIRD humans with massive ecological footprints - that's also an environmental problem.  If a locale is overpopulated with a huge number of WEIRD humans - that's a MASSIVE environmental DOUBLE WHAMMY!

Edited April 5, 2017 by gendao

[Taomeow]

I never said there's hope.  Not via any "scientific materialist" methods anyway.  A one-way ticket is a one-way ticket. 

 

I only stated what happened. 

 

Hope may be the next chapter only if what got us into this one-way pickle is somehow (miraculously?) removed.  Or if we remove ourselves from the haunted house with trillions of ghosts of tortured creatures whose lives have been used up toward desecrating and sterilizing this planet currently constituting its main, albeit invisible, population. 

 

Personally, since I'm not ready to give up hope and have a very clear (cellular level, soul level, genetic memory level, cognitive level...  systemic, in other words) understanding of what kind of human life is worth living to begin with, I'm looking to the multiverse for any chance of a solution.  That's a long shot, I know.  But this-here earth is done for I'm afraid. 

 

My other worry, besides it being a long shot, is that if our "modern" people drag what they are into any other world, they will infect it with that, with exactly the thing this one has been terminally infected with.  Self-similarity is the ironclad law of any reality -- which is why it is not feasible to "convert" anyone to a lifestyle that is "normal" if that's not the lifestyle that created them.  It's not a numbers game.  One is an epidemic if what he has is a contagious terminal disease of the soul.

 

They will replicate the abnormality anywhere, by whatever local means.  They don't have a different pattern built in, they don't know how to be human, they only know how to be domesticated automatons.

 

So, don't tell me there's a right and a wrong solution to our problems.  I believe there's only the right and the wrong cognitive process to comprehend what happened to us, and it's absolutely imperative to travel that road beginning to end to change your own built-in pattern.  So that we don't drag this one anywhere else if some great mystery gives us a chance elsewhere in the multiverse.  Of which I'm not entirely sure.  The only thing I'm sure of is, if such a chance presents itself, I'm bent on not being among those who'd blow it all over again because their understanding of what happened here never came.

 

I can't stop them from stepping on the same pitchfork if they're bent on stepping on it for all eternity.  All I can do is try to remember for all eternity where it is, and step around it next time around.  

 

Working on it. 

[Marblehead]

"But let's be real here, it's not only the West that is having problems.  China has over 2 billion people, India has over 1 billion people, the geology and environment in many parts of Africa cannot support the human populations."

 

Of the the 3  mentioned China is really not having the same problems as the other 2,  India and Africa,,,

 

Think about why this is so,,,,nothing to really to do with the geology or environment...

 

Lets keep it real

 

While the problems may be different they are problems none-the-less.  Too many people and not enough resources.

 

And yes, it has to do with geology and environment and resources.

 

The expanding human populations are causing the extinction of other species.

 

The destruction of rain forests is causing the earth to be less efficient at cleaning up after us.

 

There are so many problems in other parts of the world that it make the problems of the West to be insignificant.