Do (all) enlightened masters agree on any one single thing?

[thelerner]

The definition of enlightenment isn't even clear, let alone what a group of people in this "category" would agree on. 

There's even a rate-the-guru site which names and analyzes many famous gurus, explaining why they're all such evil bastards. 

kidding.. sort of.  It's a pretty negative site. 

[Protector]

There's even a rate-the-guru site which names and analyses many famous gurus, explaining why they're all such evil bastards. 

kidding.. sort of.  It's a pretty negative site. 

 

I NEED THAT SITE 

gimme gimme lol

[Gerard]

today (those that say they are enlightened) and have a huge following, that give lecture, have written books or scriptures "and claim enlightenment"

Hi,

 

Place a big question mark to that.

 

Today I doubt it. 500 years ago plausible. 1,000 years ago definitively. 2,000 years ago 100% correct.

 

The more information that is left in this field and information available the less the need for an enlightened seeker to tell the world.

 

 

 

Note: where did you get from that enlightened people don't agree "on any single thing"?

 

If we talk about different levels of enlightenment of course there will be variations but the ultimate level: goodbye Samsara. There is no disagreement here:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

 

I vouch 100% with that categorisation with some minor adjustments but essentially it is all correct. No doubt about that! Theravada Buddhism is quite objective and they have gone deep, deep, deep, very close to what the Buddha really taught.

 

 

Note 2: Ultimate enlightenment is the natural consequence of total commitment to this path, with a fully focused mind in here-now, not seeking enlightening or you'll quickly give a chance to the mind to grasp to it and eventually settling down delusion for good. So how do you know one has attained that state...you'll know and you'll also go back to the chop wood carry water routine thing, the physical body needs to be looked after unfortunately you just can't lie down and let your body rot slowly (there is a reason for that, find out for yourself) until physical death takes place.

 

Note 3: I'm not fully enlightened and honestly not looking for anything like it (but if it happens, well so be it, and then quickly move on because letting the whole world know about it and sitting on a throne is not enlightenment) I much prefer being a humble and good person and give helpful advice to fellow beginning seekers...would much prefer to do this in real life, but the time hasn't come for that yet. Hopefully one day I'll pass on my Bagua knowledge to others. I will, I have to.

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Gerard

[thelerner]

I NEED THAT SITE 

gimme gimme lol

Can't, you'd find out I'm on it,

 

and keep all my followers locked away in the basement

forbidden from logging in and wasting time on the internet.

Many are progressing quite nicely     

[Stosh]

No reason for doubts (grave or otherwise), imo, since it's pretty easy to tell - by what comes through the words.

You claim to know someone personally , who is completely enlightened? Ok , get them on here and lets all have a chance to hear , and judge. Theres plenty who might benefit.

[rene]

Not sure it works that way, Stosh, but here is what one of them told me, a long time ago:

 

"What could I show you that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind,

just be yourself.

Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.

As a whole human,

you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,

brings everything.

 

You already know these things.

They are naturally known,

because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?"

 

warmest regards (-:

[Michael Sternbach]

Truth is one, yet it has many aspects. No particular statement is absolutely true, only in a certain context. Seeming contradictions are in fact often complementing each other. To see them as such is a matter of holistic perception.

[Prasanna]

For the sake of this post, let's assume starting from (before) Lao Tzu, Buddha, Adi Shankara, other prophets..... to ... Ramana Maharishi......  to ............. today (those that say they are enlightened) and have a huge following, that give lecture, have written books or scriptures (were written later based on their teachings), are all enlightened.

 

Now that we made that assumption, do all these enlightened masters agree on any one single thing?  If so, what is it?

 

Some say world is illusion and just like bubbles, some other say yeah it's illusion but there is one truth behind it, some say no it's no illusion, it is very real, there are many things, only this moment is true......  

Pray to one God, many Gods, don't pray to God, Just be, accept, surrender, observe, live in the present, knock and it will be opened, be still and know who you are....

- we reincarnate, all is per karma, some don't agree or the karma or reincarnation topic is not even worth talking about.....

- do practices, yoga, alchemy,  do self enquiry -- don't do any of these, they are all useless. 

Many say there is no suffering after enlightenment.  There is no unanimous agreement on this also.

 

If the enlightenment is the same state that all of them attained, then how come they all don't agree on any single thing?  If I ask this question,  then I am told, "This state can not be described by words neither can it be taught to anyone."  

 

Then why did all of these people give lecture about enlightenment, or life.  If none of them can describe or communicate it, what is the point of all these lectures, teachings and books?

Beautiful topic worth discussing. Actually the list of masters you quoted are all saints and sages. Yes they all agree on one thing that Ego and desires of the Mind are the cause of pain and suffering in humans. They all agree that worldly pursuits are futile since they cannot give the absolute happiness that we are unconsciously craving for through our experiences in life. But, there is one more thing I would like to add. The list of enlightened souls that you have provided is not comprehensive. Even in our scriptures, there are instances which describe that the list of enlightened souls are not confined to saints and sages but people from all walks of life. King Janaka, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Bhaktha Prahladha, Bhaktha Dhruva, etc. are good examples of enlightened souls who were not sages but people involved in worldly affairs. You might have heard about the story of Jabali who is a butcher by profession, but an enlightened soul.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Prasanna

[s1va]

 Many do not agree.  Which is one reason why Buddhist Lama's and Hindu Sat Guru's seldom if ever get together for a tofu cook-out - they are 180 degrees off in certain key teachings and or doctrine although they tend to be polite about it, or never really say anything about it while sticking to their own system, group, or sect.  (and traditions)

 

Though our mind wants to believe otherwise, and tries to find common things among all these, bottomline 'Many do not agree', as you stated.

I guess, it's better we face this reality of 'disagreement' rather than trying to find commonalities. 

 

What is even more shocking is, that many would not accept that there are other approaches to reach that state.  Many say this is the right path.  When questioned about other ways, some of them, outright disagree or say it is not effective.

[s1va]

First, there are not complete works that cover all topics for every 'enlightened master'. As such the best one can say without also being an enlightened master is if there are any things that are covered by many of the works we do have that are not contradicted by the works of another master. Even so , we don't know how accurately what is recorded reflects what those masters actually taught.

 

I suggest a few truths that might qualify:

-Self awareness leads to a better quality of life

-Your state of being affects how you act and respond to the world

-You are not your body

-Human beings are a single species

-Words can not convey the 'deeper mysteries'

-One is not limited to their physical capabilites

-All life is connected

 

I think this addresses the question really well.  To me, it seems almost all of them would agree on that list, except if I were to write that list, I would take out the "-Human beings are a single species".

[s1va]

hohohoo, I hear that truth will set you free

But, what is enlightenment, indeed? Maybe it was a made up concept all along and not something that can be achieved.

Something that people from stories can achieve but normal people can't.

What if you met someone whom you thought to be an enlightened master but you made a mistake. Without knowing the truth you went ahead with their practice. You wanted an enlightened master and you made one yourself in their image. You wanted to do this yourself and it was your choice to go along with them.

But is there really freedom in a delusion like that? How much time would you waste on them until you realize something? What if the right person was someone else but you couldn't tell the difference? How should masters be judged? What is the test to to find one? 

There are so many thing protecting phonies that are taken for granted. The are so powerful, but they're too humble to show their power. They are unique, but they don't stand out. They have knowledge they want to share, but they seclude themselves. I'm basically describing mo pai, but everyone is tired of talking about that lol

But better than defense, they have the best offence.

Imagine this, you're walking on the streets in India and you see a half-naked old man sitting by the side of the road. You see him there every day and you conclude that he has nowhere else to go. Maybe he is homeless and really has nothing. But if he has nothing, then why does he look happy every time you see him? Maybe he has something that makes him happy. If he really has nothing, than that something isn't material. He can be happy with nothing but you can be happy while having something. Being in India also fits the enlightened stereotype.

And just like that you must know his secret.

This is the fun part, you ask him and he teaches you. If he is a fraud, he might take something from you and leave. You are confident that you can catch him if that happens. But what if you never catch him and you take his place as the half-naked old man on the side of the road? What if you sit there and never in your life know that you've been scammed? What if someone approaches you like you once did and that person takes your place? What if that cycle continues until someone catches one of the old men and exposes the fraud?

The fraud is real, but the person performing it doesn't know it. Thus we have 3 types of master: True enlightened one, Fraud one, and The Victim.

The victim is way scarier than the fraud, he has the technique with no results but it creates dedication in the person doing it to keep doing it. There are so many practices flying all over the forum but can you be sure most of them are real? What if you already taught someone something that is not real? I have a few suspicions here and there but I don't want to move without knowing the truth.

What is fake and what is the truth?

Truth is the most important thing, but the masters can only reveal it in prose and weird double talk. What they say has two meaning and maybe more. It's not their job to reveal it, but for us to find it. All they can do is point the finger in the right direction, then it's our job to begin the journey and earn the truth ourselves. What if we are pointed in the wrong direction but find the right answer? It's right because we worked so hard to find it and it feels so good to finally have it. It's all worth it even if we were pointed into the abyss. We're falling to our death but it's still true. Other people don't understand it because they haven't been through what we've been. If only we haven't took the journey we would have known that this is death. If it wasn't us, then it would be them falling. But we're no different from them, everyone thinks they're special and would never be caught by the old man.

But he's still there.

BEWAAAAAAAAAAARE!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

just sayin 

Wow.  I am glad I read through that whole thing.

[Stosh]

Not sure it works that way, Stosh, but here is what one of them told me, a long time ago:

What more could I say that would be of any use?"

warmest regards (-:

Even The useless is useful, entirely seriously, If you know an authentic enlightened one , I got plenty of questions to ask, and If youre correct that we'd know it , then even if the answers were redundant, we at least would have the new conviction. And conviction makes a huge difference.

Sure , what enlightenment means , one may head thataway.

What my folks said was , Try to do the right thing anyway, . even the enlightened should grasp that, unless they think its best to just give up , leave everyone else to wallow in paralyzing dubiousness.

Its not like we can hurrt their feelings ,piss em off or damage their ego.

"Let em eat cake" , doesnt sound enlightened to me.

[3bob]

one can read about and watch films about swimming but that is not swimming itself

 

It's ok to have reference books and videos about swimming but it's more important to also and soon get into the pool and take some strokes - compared to memorizing and becoming an expert on said books and videos.  (otherwise we will drown in the books and videos)  Btw, a good swimmer can come along and demonstrate some pointers in the pool for us when we get in the water but if we don't then it's still more or less like watching a video. 

[Stosh]

He or she can take a few minutes out of their busy day chopping wood anyway.

[Michael Sternbach]

one can read about and watch films about swimming but that is not swimming itself

 

It's ok to have reference books and videos about swimming but it's more important to also and soon get into the pool and take some strokes - compared to memorizing and becoming an expert on said books and videos.  (otherwise we will drown in the books and videos)  Btw, a good swimmer can come along and demonstrate some pointers in the pool for us when we get in the water but if we don't then it's still more or less like watching a video.

 

This brings to mind a story from the great physicist Theodor Kaluza who, as a schoolboy, was supposed to join a swimming event. As he had never been taught how to swim, he got himself a book that described the technique. He studied it attentively, then on the following day he went into the water and - swam!

[rene]

Even The useless is useful, entirely seriously, If you know an authentic enlightened one , I got plenty of questions to ask, and If youre correct that we'd know it , then even if the answers were redundant, we at least would have the new conviction. And conviction makes a huge difference.

Sure , what enlightenment means , one may head thataway.

What my folks said was , Try to do the right thing anyway, . even the enlightened should grasp that, unless they think its best to just give up , leave everyone else to wallow in paralyzing dubiousness.

Its not like we can hurrt their feelings ,piss em off or damage their ego.

"Let em eat cake" , doesnt sound enlightened to me.

Hi Stosh

 

I wish I had a magic wand, or magic words, to help you find what you seek.

 

There is no wand and there are no words, whomever may speak them, that work for this. If there we're, we'd be hip-deep in Buddas, and the gentle rain would fall.

 

I understand your frustration, for on the surface my post must have felt to you that you and others are left to 'wallow in paralyzing dubiousnes' to 'eat your cake' as you expressed.

 

The underlying ideas in the post are very different, however, and I yield to the handfull of others here to explain them, if they choose to. You have been here for a long time, Stosh, and I read your exchanges with others, and you have already heard all the words, and ideas, many times over. Words alone dont work.

 

Our perspectives are very different and all I can do is wish you well on your path, which I do.

 

Now I literally do need to go chop wood, lol; thought we had enough to get through spring but need about half a cord more.

 

If I find a magic wand in the wood pile - I'll be right back. (-:

 

warmest regards

[Protector]

You know what they say, "if you meet a Buddha, kill him." 

Maybe that's why it's so hard to find these 

[Brian]

If I were a Buddha, I might be a reluctant messiah until the time was right (what with all those people wandering around who have been advised to kill me on sight and all...)

[Spotless]

They all agree that the "kingdom is at hand" - that it is not even a whisper away - that it is before us in all things.

 

A key feature of anyone captured by the illusion is to pick apart everything in some cocksure fashion in order to insure by inference that their illusion is superior to those that have stepped beyond it.

 

And yet we demand personalized tailored teachings because we are unique and not of some uniform clean room design. We are of a messy perfect fertile being-ness - our illusions are compelled not just by hungers - geography - with all its variations shapes teachings, particularly of the past.

 

Those that have truly Awakened have a great deal that is agreed upon - it may not be a great deal in quantity - but a great deal in the essence of Presence.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Spotless

[Stosh]

If I were a Buddha, I might be a reluctant messiah until the time was right (what with all those people wandering around who have been advised to kill me on sight and all...)

True for regular folks, to be concerned. But lets consider the fully awakened, thats what the thread is about . If any of us takes this idea seriously , the assumption is they have something in common, and if this condition is valuable , then they cant be just like everybody else. If we know our own flaws, we can recognize them in others.

So if these special folk Are less flawed we should see that, and if they arent then the vision of less flawedness, is erroneous. The grandiose vision of what enlightenment is , Is undermined by not seeing any examples of itwhich are grandiose.. To someone serious the only reasonable thing is to bring their expectations down to earth. and the earthly vision of what this all means is worth considering even if its not so glossy.

[C T]

True for regular folks, to be concerned. But lets consider the fully awakened, thats what the thread is about . If any of us takes this idea seriously , the assumption is they have something in common, and if this condition is valuable , then they cant be just like everybody else. If we know our own flaws, we can recognize them in others.

So if these special folk Are less flawed we should see that, and if they arent then the vision of less flawedness, is erroneous. The grandiose vision of what enlightenment is , Is undermined by not seeing any examples of itwhich are grandiose.. To someone serious the only reasonable thing is to bring their expectations down to earth. and the earthly vision of what this all means is worth considering even if its not so glossy.

I dont think its so much about knowing our own flaws as opposed to a gradual process of developing and refining a relationship with our own enlightened nature. 

 

There are two ways towards this refinement: A more common approach is like you say, become more aware of flaws; the other is to become more aware of the qualities of enlightenment and recognise these qualities in self and others, and use that as a denominator to fulfil one's and other's spiritual potential. Latterly, the flaws will diminish effortlessly. I think this is the essence of the term 'spiritual cultivation' rather than say 'spiritual transactional analysis' or 'spiritual psychoanalysis', ie if such terms even exist to validate a usable platform. The latter would be a more wholesome approach imo. 

 

Likewise, how we determine if some folks are special, and how special, would very much hinge on which approach we are personally engaging with. The more we are able to connect with our own enlightened mind and potential, the more we can see the same in others. The illusion of master/helpless human tends to evaporate quicker when coupled with such an attitude. 

[rene]

CT, yes, and thanks. Especially for your:

 

Likewise, how we determine if some folks are special, and how special, would very much hinge on which approach we are personally engaging with. The more we are able to connect with our own enlightened mind and potential, the more we can see the same in others. ...

- which clarifies my earlier post to flowing hands about having no 'grave doubts'.

 

Now, how are you at chopping wood?

 

warm greetings

[3bob]

an apparent "they" is just that...apparent,

 

Atman is not nor sees such a they.

 

A matrix for the "awake" comes and goes, yet where or when is the awake and its matrix not? 

[s1va]

Now, how are you at chopping wood?

 

warm greetings

 

I guess you can't help but remind chopping wood.  

[s1va]

one can read about and watch films about swimming but that is not swimming itself

 

It's ok to have reference books and videos about swimming but it's more important to also and soon get into the pool and take some strokes - compared to memorizing and becoming an expert on said books and videos.  (otherwise we will drown in the books and videos)  Btw, a good swimmer can come along and demonstrate some pointers in the pool for us when we get in the water but if we don't then it's still more or less like watching a video. 

I am on the pool.  All here are fellow swimmers or aspiring swimmers.  Perhaps you are teaching me some strokes.