Do (all) enlightened masters agree on any one single thing?

[Spotless]

When you are young you are certain that a zit on your nose will be seen and acknowledged by everyone in your world.

At some point you believe you will die if you do not acquire some thing - a dress or a toy.

 

We learn we have glues and inertia's that hold us and we move onward - but we move onward picking our way more and more carefully - looking for the best glues and the best spins. And our heros often are made of a cloth beyond us so that our short comings are more palatable.

 

This self constructed cage is reasonably comfortable - we are addicted to the walls - however thorny, barren or cold.

They are the handles that tell us we are something in control of something.

 

If by some grace the bonds of our glues and beloved trappings fall away - we are Awakened - in a flash we are floating - this is what all Awakened share - this experience.

 

For some of us it is too confusing and in need of handles and we revert back to our walls and the dimmer light.

 

For some it is relief and spectacular breath and we will not go back - but we carry within deep old grooves of behavior - ruts that still enliven to energies that we were once identified with. We may still exhibit these well entrenched behaviors - though we inside are no longer identified in them - we are not in their clutches but we exhibit them from time to time none the less.

 

For some it is spectacular breath and our partnership within the bodies expands - the bodies expand and refine - in fearless and relentless gratitude we endure constant transmutation - never ending rays of bouyant present light in colors of wonder. Lives with no future and no past - invisible to the relative - inexplicable to the relative. Handles appear offering the old and familiar - but we see in them no refuge - and we become at ease in no refuge - it was "in refuge" the we were isolated, cold and barren - clutched in the fear of position and walled off from the All that is us.

 

Gods walk amongst us - we swim in god - we breath god - that which breathes is god - but "I" cannot know god, see god, feel god - it is entranced in its inertia's.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Spotless

[s1va]

Instead of wording, what was the thing that all the enlightened masters agreed and advocated.  I was thinking, may be look at what is the underlying agreement on that which they thought was 'not it', or 'not the way'.  

 

I think taking this approach, we can find common things on negation, or what they said is not true.  The state they experienced cannot be communicated.  What can be communicated is what is not that state.

Does "Neti Neti" come out of this?  Would all agree on this negation, what we see or think is not what it is.

[3bob]

the first stroke to learn is hardly a stroke at all but to float without panic, besides if one is not failing about in the water it makes it more difficult for the sharks to find you. ;-)

[3bob]

Is Neti, neti - negation per-se? 

[s1va]

Is Neti, neti - negation per-se? 

 

I would think so.  word meaning also.   'not it' 'not it' 'not it' 'not it' .............

...... until reaching that which is not 'not it'.

[3bob]

but then again isn't there that Zen saying about, "first there a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is", and in that pointer what was negated per-se?

Edited March 26, 2017 by 3bob

[rene]

I would think so. word meaning also. 'not it' 'not it' 'not it' 'not it' .............

...... until reaching that which is not 'not it'.

Agree, AND, the 'not it' doesn't go away at that point - rather it's both 'not it' and 'not not it', simultaneously. Both.

[rene]

but then again there isn't there that Zen saying about, "first there a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is", and in that pointer what was negated per-se?

The 'either/or' perspective.

[Kar3n]

A common theme is to let go.

 

Enlightenment is just a word. It means something different to every person who says it; words are not a good compass.

[cold]

Enlightenment is just a word.

 

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

[Kar3n]

Enlightenment is just a word.

 

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

Thanks for the tune cootie.

 

[dwai]

Agree, AND, the 'not it' doesn't go away at that point - rather it's both 'not it' and 'not not it', simultaneously. Both.

As well as neither not it, nor not not it

[s1va]

Agree, AND, the 'not it' doesn't go away at that point - rather it's both 'not it' and 'not not it', simultaneously. Both.

 

You mean, the 'not it's don't go away  -- it is both 'not it's and 'not not it'.

then the question can come, are there many 'not not it's?

isn't the whole point of doing 'not it' 'not it'... to get to 'not not it' and see that the 'not not it' itself is all the 'not it's?

[rene]

As well as neither not it, nor not not it

Yeppers, and it's even worse than that.

 

This

That

Not this

Not that

Both this and that

Neither this nor that.

 

:D

[Protector]

I write a whole wall of text about double talk and then this happens

[rene]

You mean, the 'not it's don't go away -- it is both 'not it's and 'not not it'.

Yes

 

then the question can come, are there many 'not not it's?

For me, no. Just one, eternal and unboundaried.

 

isn't the whole point of doing 'not it' 'not it'... to get to 'not not it' and see that the 'not not it' itself is all the 'not it's?

That seems to be the point of many traditions, indeed. Sadly, IMVeryHO, so much weight is placed on the 'not it' aspect that it reinforces a division - rather than revealing the simultaneousness of both the empty and the full, the wu and the you, the mystery and the manifest, the Way unboundaried with the 10,000 things... right here, right now.

[s1va]

That seems to be the point of many traditions, indeed. Sadly, IMVeryHO, so much weight is placed on the 'not it' aspect that it reinforces a division - rather than revealing the simultaneousness of both the empty and the full, the wu and the you, the mystery and the manifest, the Way unboundaried with the 10,000 things... right here, right now.

 

I need to go chop wood.  

[C T]

very often the 'not it' implies a reminder to drop all expectations, to surrender every ounce of the desire to want to realize something other than the present condition. Indeed, a stark wake-up call to give up futile and puny efforts of looking for some sort of concrete affirmation, over and over, for whats already within. Which is quite a laugh when the searcher also happens to be a proponent of the concept of 'not this, not that.' 

[rene]

I need to go chop wood.  

Feel free to come help, lol.

Bring axe. (-:

.

.

[Jadespear]

For the sake of this post, let's assume starting from (before) Lao Tzu, Buddha, Adi Shankara, other prophets..... to ... Ramana Maharishi......  to ............. today (those that say they are enlightened) and have a huge following, that give lecture, have written books or scriptures (were written later based on their teachings), are all enlightened.

 

Now that we made that assumption, do all these enlightened masters agree on any one single thing?  If so, what is it?

 

Some say world is illusion and just like bubbles, some other say yeah it's illusion but there is one truth behind it, some say no it's no illusion, it is very real, there are many things, only this moment is true......  

Pray to one God, many Gods, don't pray to God, Just be, accept, surrender, observe, live in the present, knock and it will be opened, be still and know who you are....

- we reincarnate, all is per karma, some don't agree or the karma or reincarnation topic is not even worth talking about.....

- do practices, yoga, alchemy,  do self enquiry -- don't do any of these, they are all useless. 

Many say there is no suffering after enlightenment.  There is no unanimous agreement on this also.

 

If the enlightenment is the same state that all of them attained, then how come they all don't agree on any single thing?  If I ask this question,  then I am told, "This state can not be described by words neither can it be taught to anyone."  

 

Then why did all of these people give lecture about enlightenment, or life.  If none of them can describe or communicate it, what is the point of all these lectures, teachings and books?

 

 

...the tao that can be named is not the eternal tao...

 

...I feel the same in that there is a lot of information floating around with no easily understood goal with which it is ascribed to...   however, I think the common thing that everyone no matter there "label" on themselves is - feels compelled to understand things deeper...  

 

I also think that it is important to understand true meaning of words.  The word "enlightenment" was ascribed by a person to the buddihst term "awakened"...  

 

I also think that it is significant to see that human beings are often pattern seeking primates as well as beings that almost always attempt to subscribe or ascribe levels of power, intelligence, etc.  to everything...  in order to understand it in reference to themselves...  

 

...The one thing that is true to everyone no matter what they call themselves is that they must live.  All spiritual traditions basically are attempts at making the life experience more pleasurable and less painful...which is achieved in many ways...  and everyone's cognizance and outlook on the facts as they are is their own opinion....  But the facts remain.

 

...I think that "enlightenment" is a term so often misunderstood and misused, to the point now where it shouldn't really even be used in communication.   

 

...What "enlightenment" - I believe, originally described - was a person or being who literally had the light in themselves able to see the true nature of life and how it unfolds... or is determined... on every level of life...  every level of nature...  every level of mind...  an "enlightened" one can see it all.....  

[3bob]

Btw, there also the Isa Upanishad which gets into this area although it is not interpreted the same by different schools which may be 180 degrees out from each other.

[cold]

Semantics.

 

 The debate of the exact meaning of word(s) has occurred since the efforts of communication began.

Edited March 26, 2017 by cold

[beingnature]

Agree and disagree at the same time. just kidding...

[dwai]

Feel free to come help, lol.

Bring axe. (-:

.

.

Just don't chop wood like kalidasa

[Stosh]

...the tao that can be named is not the eternal tao...

 

...I feel the same in that there is a lot of information floating around with no easily understood goal with which it is ascribed to...   however, I think the common thing that everyone no matter there "label" on themselves is - feels compelled to understand things deeper...  

 

I also think that it is important to understand true meaning of words.  The word "enlightenment" was ascribed by a person to the buddihst term "awakened"...  

 

I also think that it is significant to see that human beings are often pattern seeking primates as well as beings that almost always attempt to subscribe or ascribe levels of power, intelligence, etc.  to everything...  in order to understand it in reference to themselves...  

 

...The one thing that is true to everyone no matter what they call themselves is that they must live.  All spiritual traditions basically are attempts at making the life experience more pleasurable and less painful...which is achieved in many ways...  and everyone's cognizance and outlook on the facts as they are is their own opinion....  But the facts remain.

 

...I think that "enlightenment" is a term so often misunderstood and misused, to the point now where it shouldn't really even be used in communication.   

 

...What "enlightenment" - I believe, originally described - was a person or being who literally had the light in themselves able to see the true nature of life and how it unfolds... or is determined... on every level of life...  every level of nature...  every level of mind...  an "enlightened" one can see it all.....  

Well this pattern seeking primate says that 1)  all the masters-referred-to , think that humanity is basically ,,, dysfunctional. Right? 2) there's some kind of hope that it might not unavoidably be the case.. IF..... something.

The differ as to what the cures are, but not the illness.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Stosh