Neidan vs Mantrayana

[Kongming]

I know it is often said that there are many paths up the mountain, perhaps with some paths being more suited to particular persons than others or, being a bit less conciliatory, some paths being more direct and advanced than others.

 

Two traditions or paths/systems in particular continue to interest me, namely that of Daoism of the Quanzhen/Neidan variety and what is variously termed East Asian Esoteric Buddhism, Mijiao/Mikkyo, Shingon, or Mantrayana/East Asian tantra. Or to put it in different terms, Daoist internal alchemy and the Buddhist path involving mantra, mudra, visualization of deities, etc.

 

Now from what I understand these two traditions interacted quite a bit in China anyway. That said, for those who have either practiced both or are familiar with both, would you say that they are equal and it is more about temperament or connecting with a particular master that might lead one to practice one over the other? Or is one more advanced than the other?

 

In short, how does neidan stack up against Buddhist tantra/mantra practice? Which is more powerful and which is more suited for modern man to practice?

[rex]

Buddhist neidan is tsa lung.

[z00se]

I think it's more about your personality.

 

If you are a thinker, clever, etc, then the inner alchemy would probably appeal to you best, you would enjoy doing it more, but you would probably get better results from mantra type practices.

 

For someone who is calmer, more relaxed and more physically orientated, mantra type practices would appeal more, but they would probably get better results from inner alchemy.

 

It's a bit like physio exercises. Nobody likes to exercise their sore weak muscles, they want to show off with how much they can do with their strong healthy muscles. But this just puts them more out of balance. It's the weak muscles they need to strengthen..... similarly it's the weaker parts of the mind we need to exercise through meditation, so we need to do the practices we are not good at to bring balance..... If balance and health is what you seek....

[Taoist Texts]

 In short, how does neidan stack up against Buddhist tantra/mantra practice? Which is more powerful and which is more suited for modern man to practice?

 

one of them comes with a warning that a success in it awaits only one out of a zillion practitioners, so...

[allinone]

through mantra you see how the throat, mouth breathing works, affecting different places and layers(skandhas).

 

See the "cause and effect". Cause and effect has to be seen whatever you do if you want to get free and know why you doing these things you do.

 

edit:

Edited March 25, 2017 by allinone

[Kongming]

one of them comes with a warning that a success in it awaits only one out of a zillion practitioners, so...

 

Which is that, neidan? A reference to horns of an animal vs hairs saying? Perhaps in a way such a view is a bit more realistic than some of the more triumphalist and fantastic claims of Buddhist schools (like Dzogchen) which claim the practices are so much more powerful and advanced than anything else out there, which in turn makes you wonder why more of the practitioners aren't Mahasiddhas. 

 

Though this brings up another point in relation to the two paths in question: it is a fact that religious or cultivation traditions can degenerate or decline in time, becoming confused and having less awakened men to show the way, etc. Who's producing more xian/immortals and Buddhas these days, the tantrikas or the Daoist internal alchemists?

 

 

 

 

Buddhist neidan is tsa lung. 

 

Indeed, though Tibetan Vajrayana is a bit of a different animal than what I was speaking of initially, which is more of the esoteric practices that exist in Chinese, Korean, and especially Japanese Buddhist traditions (Shingon, Tendai, Shugendo, etc.)  I see the value and power in much of the Tibetan material, but personally I am put off by guru yoga, the sexual aspects which I see as a potential for abuse, the tulku system, and I also find Tibetan culture more foreign feeling to me than East Asian. In other words, while I don't discount the value in Tibetan Buddhism and acknowledge that a true seeker should look anywhere, as a personal equation on the whole I can't see myself becoming a Tibetan Buddhist or following a Tibetan Buddhist path.

[Taoist Texts]

Who's producing more xian/immortals and Buddhas these days, the tantrikas or the Daoist internal alchemists?

 

They produce nothing

[Kongming]

They produce nothing

 

Who is? Are you saying both methodologies are flawed and that there is a superior way or are you saying we are in advanced state of the Kali Yuga/Dharma Ending Age and there are no masters left?

[Taoist Texts]

we are in advanced state of the Kali Yuga/Dharma Ending Age and there are no masters left?

 

yes. exactly. no masters  

[Kongming]

yes. exactly. no masters  

 

I will say it often does seem that way but I remain optimistic that there remain some bearers of the torch of transcendent wisdom out there in the world.

 

In your view then, what are the best options for a spiritual seeker in our times? If we are on our own, aside from the basic elements of obtaining self-mastery, ethical purification, trying to quiet the mind, etc. what should one be doing?

[Vajra Fist]

I would say that regardless of your system, whether nei dan or vajrayana, I would advice reciting the name of Amitabha. Chances of success in most systems is normally one in a hundred, or worse. Even if you have only the finest grain of karma left at the end of your life you will be caught in samsara. In your next life you may be reincarnated into a wealthy life, and commit evils. In your third incarnation you will be worse off than you are now.

 

However by reciting the buddha's name with the wish to be reborn in the Pure Land for further cultivation, will place you in a state of nonretrogression. That's why in Chinese Zen they combine the buddha name recitation with dhyana. The recitation acts as a safety net if cultivation cannot be completed in this lifetime.

 

The same would go for other systems of cultivation.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Vajra Fist

[C T]

Which is that, neidan? A reference to horns of an animal vs hairs saying? Perhaps in a way such a view is a bit more realistic than some of the more triumphalist and fantastic claims of Buddhist schools (like Dzogchen) which claim the practices are so much more powerful and advanced than anything else out there, which in turn makes you wonder why more of the practitioners aren't Mahasiddhas. 

 

Indeed, though Tibetan Vajrayana is a bit of a different animal than what I was speaking of initially, which is more of the esoteric practices that exist in Chinese, Korean, and especially Japanese Buddhist traditions (Shingon, Tendai, Shugendo, etc.)  I see the value and power in much of the Tibetan material, but personally I am put off by guru yoga, the sexual aspects which I see as a potential for abuse, the tulku system, and I also find Tibetan culture more foreign feeling to me than East Asian. In other words, while I don't discount the value in Tibetan Buddhism and acknowledge that a true seeker should look anywhere, as a personal equation on the whole I can't see myself becoming a Tibetan Buddhist or following a Tibetan Buddhist path.

Most Dzogchen yogis are simple, quiet people. The 'real' ones are usually the most 'hidden', in that they will shy away from making any claims to realization or siddhi mastery, so looking from the outside, you and I as observers will not see much, that is, until such time we are fortunate enough to deepen a meaningful connection with a Dzogchen adept. It is only out of an ever- deepening relationship that the yogis' true power are revealed. 

 

Are there any specific reasons why you are put off by guru yoga? Perhaps you have misunderstood the real purpose of this invaluable practice - it is the cornerstone of Vajrayana. 

 

As for the potential for abuse, it cannot be denied that some gurus have indeed grossly overstepped the boundaries, but for every rogue Tibetan guru, there are many more who are genuine. Just because a particular mode of practice can create a higher potential for abuse is no reason to avoid familiarization thru adopting a mature approach and level-headed discernment, which the genuine gurus will tend towards anyway as advice to students. In truth, genuine gurus wont even admit a student into his or her inner circle for at least a few years so as to allow the guru-disciple bond to strengthen first. 

 

I will suggest keeping an open mind - personally i have met adepts from both traditions and they all have their merits. But as far as personal experience goes, i am more inclined towards Tibetan yogic paths

[Kongming]

Most Dzogchen yogis are simple, quiet people. The 'real' ones are usually the most 'hidden', in that they will shy away from making any claims to realization or siddhi mastery, so looking from the outside, you and I as observers will not see much, that is, until such time we are fortunate enough to deepen a meaningful connection with a Dzogchen adept. It is only out of an ever- deepening relationship that the yogis' true power are revealed. 

 

Are there any specific reasons why you are put off by guru yoga? Perhaps you have misunderstood the real purpose of this invaluable practice - it is the cornerstone of Vajrayana. 

 

As for the potential for abuse, it cannot be denied that some gurus have indeed grossly overstepped the boundaries, but for every rogue Tibetan guru, there are many more who are genuine. Just because a particular mode of practice can create a higher potential for abuse is no reason to avoid familiarization thru adopting a mature approach and level-headed discernment, which the genuine gurus will tend towards anyway as advice to students. In truth, genuine gurus wont even admit a student into his or her inner circle for at least a few years so as to allow the guru-disciple bond to strengthen first. 

 

I will suggest keeping an open mind - personally i have met adepts from both traditions and they all have their merits. But as far as personal experience goes, i am more inclined towards Tibetan yogic paths

 

Well my point wasn't directed at Dzogchen masters who I imagine are indeed humble people but rather the claim inherent in Dzogchen specifically or Vajrayana more generally, namely that Buddhism is superior to all non-Buddhist religions, that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, that Vajrayana is superior to Sutrayana Mahayana, and that Dzogchen is the apex of Vajrayana. Given that claim to potency, Vajrayana and Dzogchen practitioners should be leagues beyond, say, Daoists or Hindus or even Zennists, etc. Is this the reality?

 

As to guru yoga, I am not comfortable with the idea of the samaya vows that pledge obedience to what could be, for all I know, an unenlightened man or even one with ill intentions, and the idea of "Vajra hell", namely the metaphor of the snake in the tube wherein breaking samaya, switching traditions, etc. guarantees Avici hell.

 

On the whole I value much of what I've encountered reading about Tibetan Buddhism and the words of various masters, but I suppose on the whole the issue isn't so much flaws I see with the tradition as much as a lack of personal affinity.

 

Though it is interesting, I wonder where neidan practices would fall in the Tibetan tantric grading system. For example, much of Shingon/East Asian Esoteric Buddhism is classified as kriya, carya, and yoga tantra. Perhaps neidan style practices are Daoist equivalent of anuttarayoga? 

[Aetherous]

Buddhism is superior...mantrayana, mind training, etc. It has a clear goal, and clear signs of progress. It's useful in terms of making people better.

 

Neidan was a later invention of Daoism, drawn from the waidan tradition. The texts that discuss it are ridiculously cryptic. Its practices vary between schools of thought, so there isn't even a coherent neidan practice we can speak of. If it ever existed as a system of producing xianhood, it appears to not exist today...just a bunch of money makers out there in a sleazy marketplace. It has no mind training, such as becoming a better person...so what is the point? Are there clear signs of progress? No one even really knows what being a xian means...the goal is nebulous, and perhaps doesn't even exist.

[Aeran]

Knowing very little about tantric buddhism (and only slightly more about Neidan), my general perspective on the question would be to avoid locking yourself into a specific tradition or path based on your preconceived notions of what it entails and what it results in, and instead to seek out individuals who have achieved what it is you desire from these paths and to hopefully receive guidance from them. 

[rex]

Indeed, though Tibetan Vajrayana is a bit of a different animal than what I was speaking of initially, which is more of the esoteric practices that exist in Chinese, Korean, and especially Japanese Buddhist traditions (Shingon, Tendai, Shugendo, etc.)

So it was, sorry my bad.

[Kongming]

Buddhism is superior...mantrayana, mind training, etc. It has a clear goal, and clear signs of progress. It's useful in terms of making people better.

 

Neidan was a later invention of Daoism, drawn from the waidan tradition. The texts that discuss it are ridiculously cryptic. Its practices vary between schools of thought, so there isn't even a coherent neidan practice we can speak of. If it ever existed as a system of producing xianhood, it appears to not exist today...just a bunch of money makers out there in a sleazy marketplace. It has no mind training, such as becoming a better person...so what is the point? Are there clear signs of progress? No one even really knows what being a xian means...the goal is nebulous, and perhaps doesn't even exist.

 

 

Thanks for the honesty. Often people want to avoid saying one tradition is superior to the other out of a conciliatory attitude, so it's refreshing to hear someone speak their mind.

 

I am unaware of how neidan functions on the ground so to speak since I don't live in China and have no resources near me, so my knowledge is limited to books and other peoples words. I can't speak on whether most of it is a matter of making money or not, but then I've heard people in the West complain about the money making aspects of Buddhist empowerments, Dharma talks, retreats, etc. as well.

 

That said, from what I understand neidan developed in the later Tang but has roots in various earlier material, some going back as far as the Wu shamans, others to Lao-Zhuang Daoism or the Fangshi of the Han Dynasty, others to Shangqing material, and some to the interaction of tantric Buddhism and Daoism in the Tang. The cryptic nature of the texts is due to it being an esoteric tradition, much in the same way esoteric Buddhists have the "Twilight Language." Quanzhen has ethical guidelines (five hindrances, etc.) and mind training (riyong 日用 or daily use, daily sustenance, etc. and xinzhai 心齋 or mind fasting, etc.) for becoming a better person and training ones mind.

 

As to the goal, the goal apparently is to rise through the levels of being by converting jing to qi to shen to emptiness and thus 的道成仙 dedao chengxian or "obtain the Dao, become an immortal." Attaining the Dao, thereby returning to origins or the Absolute and entering the timeless state, namely immortality. Its goal here is therefore comparable to Western alchemy, Kalachakra tantra, or perhaps various yogic traditions of India, like the Naths, etc. The idea of an immortal spiritual body of qi is also quite reminiscent of the Buddhist "manomaya kaya."

 

Again, whether any of this exists on the ground today is not for me to say.

[damdao]

Leaving aside for now the question of superiority or inferiority I should say that what path you choose is a matter of affinity (or even destiny).

As a general rule, most of neidan lineages does not rely on the acquired mind (shishen) for training. So, no visualizations and no mantras. There similar things but the approach seems to be very different. The core of many neidan methods is to put in motion the mechanism of yuan qi and this cannot be done with the acquired mind. While people can complain about not having mind reform methods the truth is that neidan has pure Chinese mind reform methods. "Pure" in the sense of not having a mix with indian world view. For instance, if you could calm your heart and relax deep while practicing you are making room for your real mind to be present (this is a bit confucianist but I think it is one of the first goals of practice), if you correct the energetic state of the five zang-fu you harmonize its psychological characteritics in yourself, i. e. you can manage your anger and fears and use your will, for example (this is the same idea as in chinese medicine in general, the parts of the psyque are stored in the five organs and depends on their health).

This is as a way of illustrate the differences with mikkyo.

If you want to speak about the interaction, well, Tang China was the land of cross fertilization par excellence, but it seems that the most obvious field of mutual influence was in the ritual, so this is not neidan but zhengyi daoism. Of course, there are theories about the influence and relation between neidan and dzogchen and there is thread here dealing partially with it.

[opendao]

Leaving aside for now the question of superiority or inferiority I should say that what path you choose is a matter of affinity (or even destiny).

As a general rule, most of neidan lineages does not rely on the acquired mind (shishen) for training. So, no visualizations and no mantras. There similar things but the approach seems to be very different. The core of many neidan methods is to put in motion the mechanism of yuan qi and this cannot be done with the acquired mind. While people can complain about not having mind reform methods the truth is that neidan has pure Chinese mind reform methods. "Pure" in the sense of not having a mix with indian world view. For instance, if you could calm your heart and relax deep while practicing you are making room for your real mind to be present (this is a bit confucianist but I think it is one of the first goals of practice), if you correct the energetic state of the five zang-fu you harmonize its psychological characteritics in yourself, i. e. you can manage your anger and fears and use your will, for example (this is the same idea as in chinese medicine in general, the parts of the psyque are stored in the five organs and depends on their health).

 

Right. It's impossible to stop mind with the mind, thoughts with other thoughts, visions by means of the imagination... Real transformation of the heart comes naturally from a deep change of the Yuan Qi. It was the same in all traditions, but lost in time and translation... 

 

Kongming, I think it has more sense to look for a teacher, not for a particular tradition.

[Taoist Texts]

The idea that visualization and mind-intent are not used in neidan is an easily debunked canard.  Not only these methods   are not unused or negligible, but, to the contrary, 'Chung-Lu ch'uan-tao chi' , one of the seminal texts of neidan  presents those methods as mainstream, dwelling on them in great detail:

 

Lu asked:  "Can you tell me briefly how to practice visualization and  internal observation?

Chung said:  "For example, to facilitate the rise of yang, you should visualize  the following images: male, dragon, fire, sky, clouds, crane,  the sun, horse, smoke, haze, the wheel, horse cart, flowers, and  steam. All these images are associated with the rise of yang. To  facilitate the descent of yin, you should visualize the following  images: female, tiger, water, earth, rain, tortoise, the moon, oxen,  spring, mud, lead, and leaves. All these images are associated  with the descent of yin.  "The green dragon, the white tiger, the red raven, the black  tortoise, the five mountains the nine continents the four seas,  the three islands, the golden boy and jade lady, the Waterwheel,  and the pagoda are all useful visual images. You can  also use the names of various processes of cultivation to evoke  visual images. 

/Wong/

[allinone]

At first the object of meditation is a dry object, later you will see the object "second time" then you have internals. Of course you may see the object tens of times, it doesn't mean you have seen it second time. The 10 times doesn't count as seen the object, because you still are in the same dry consciousness all this time.

 

its clear who have understood what learning means or getting, obtaining.

 

Any method can be done like a failure student in math in school without getting the "=" heart.

 

edit: the good students in normal school are genes, they get things unconsciously without seeing the "getting" as a process of its own like a layer what makes up a person. That's another quality why a random brainy person won't evolve beyond its own natural borders.

Edited March 28, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

Mahayana and the vechile before that. The Vajrayana comes third.

 

Thinking mind rejects all by default, its how it works. That's why probably the hinayana is no-self. As we defaultly take the wrong thing as true, so we need to see how that happens and reverse it.

Edited March 28, 2017 by allinone

[damdao]

The idea that visualization and mind-intent are not used in neidan is an easily debunked canard.  Not only these methods   are not unused or negligible, but, to the contrary, 'Chung-Lu ch'uan-tao chi' , one of the seminal texts of neidan  presents those methods as mainstream, dwelling on them in great detail:

 

Lu asked:  (...)

 

/Wong/

 

The same Wong states:

 

 

 

The method of visualization descrihed in chapter 16 disappeared from Taoist internal-alchemical Texts soon after the Chung-Lü  chuan-tao chi was written. As far as I know, the technique of  visualization described in the text is no longer practiced among modern internal alchemists.

 

[Taoist Texts]

 the technique of  visualization described in the text is no longer practiced among modern internal alchemists.

 

 

Of course. The modern ones don't have the transmission. That's why they say that visualization, shi-shen and intent/mind are not used.  No transmission.

[opendao]

The same Wong states:

 

impurity of methods based on imagination can be understood after people experience that there is something else, more effective and less erroneous.