Neidan vs Mantrayana

[Wells]

All those methods using intention, visualization, movement, breathing, feeling etc. are "doing", therefore use shi-shen and in consequence work with post-heaven chi.

Qigong, Taichi, Neigong etc. use these post-heaven principles.

At best, they create a healthy post-heaven chi flow or even neijin(g) (internal power).

 

Only those methods which are "non-doing" use yuan-shen, in consequence work with pre-heaven chi, therefore can be considered alchemic methods and therefore have the potential to lead to immortality.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Wells

[opendao]

All those methods using intention, visualization, movement, feeling etc. are "doing", therefore use shi-shen and in consequence work with post-heaven chi.

Qigong, Taichi, Neigong etc. use these post-heaven principles.

 

Only those methods which are "non-doing" use yuan-shen, in consequence work with pre-heaven chi, therefore can be considered alchemic methods and therefore have the potential to lead to immortality.

 

doing and non-doing both work only with pre-heaven in the alchemy. 

 

But shishen is postheaven, as well as most of widespread practices, you're right.

[Wells]

doing and non-doing both work only with pre-heaven in the alchemy. 

 

My understanding is as I said it in the post above.

Can you elaborate how a "doing" method (which in consequence has to be initiated and controlled by shi-shen or "common mind") is supposed to be able to work with or to influence pre-heaven chi?

Because I honestly can't imagine how this is supposed to be possible.

Thanks!

Edited March 28, 2017 by Wells

[C T]

Evidence of the deep profundity and achievability of the path of mantrayana. 

 

 

 

homage to the late Ven. Dorzong Rinpoche. May you attain a swift and auspicious rebirth! 

[Aetherous]

impossible

I'm possible!

[opendao]

My understanding is as I said it in the post above.

Can you elaborate how a "doing" method (which in consequence has to be initiated and controlled by shi-shen or "common mind") is supposed to be able to work with or to influence pre-heaven chi?

 

"doing" is not really initiated by mind... of course we take a decision to learn and practice, but while practicing the mechanism is not based on mind or physical activity or any post-heaven, it's based on yuan qi changes.

[allinone]

There is "doing" because the thing appears and that what appears has doing included in the substance already: you can't avoid doing it.

Like feelings has logic and memory in them and there is no-way to tell its unreal or untruth.

 

So how to cultivate them is to trust and have faith in emptiness that the things, feelings what appear are impermanent, empty. So when you don't do them, hold back physical activity(hold yourself back, bring your mind back to physical body from the object you want to do, gain that kind of experience) they expire and dissolve, means cessation happens.

..

Then you can cause cessation by doing(non), knowing the heavenly body pathways(your mind knows from previous cultivation), you use functions of a physical body without doing them physically.

[JohnC]

All those methods using intention, visualization, movement, breathing, feeling etc. are "doing", therefore use shi-shen and in consequence work with post-heaven chi.

Qigong, Taichi, Neigong etc. use these post-heaven principles.

At best, they create a healthy post-heaven chi flow or even neijin(g) (internal power).

 

Only those methods which are "non-doing" use yuan-shen, in consequence work with pre-heaven chi, therefore can be considered alchemic methods and therefore have the potential to lead to immortality.

In support of this, Wang li ping speaks to that there is pre-heaven chi all around us and it is very accessible using the yi/mind.

 

John

[allinone]

In support of this, Wang li ping speaks to that there is pre-heaven chi all around us and it is very accessible using the yi/mind.

 

John

 

what is pre-heaven? the place where bodhisatvas are? if so then its 3rd skandha. There is the 60 stages of bodhisatva training.

[JohnC]

what is pre-heaven? the place where bodhisatvas are? if so then its 3rd skandha. There is the 60 stages of bodhisatva training.

I think he means original chi, or the chi of creation.

[allinone]

I think he means original chi, or the chi of creation.

 

and what's chi? is it when its fire then its heat, when its water then its viscosity etc. The energy, a capacity to do work; is its original quality?

 

There is a quote of when mahayana(probably any book) book is not properly on a table but some of it is on air then there is bodhisatvas holding it so it wouldn't fall down from table. (the quote is different actually, but to give the more down to earth meaning).

[Jessup2]

On 3/30/2017 at 5:12 AM, JohnC said:

In support of this, Wang li ping speaks to that there is pre-heaven chi all around us and it is very accessible using the yi/mind.

 

John

Jing is often named as Pre-birth, Pre-heaven chi, or Sexual energy...

Is this a correct statement?

 

[MIchael80]

11 minutes ago, Jessup2 said:

Jing is often named as Pre-birth, Pre-heaven chi, or Sexual energy...

Is this a correct statement?

 

There is pre-heaven jing and post heaven jing. Jing is stored chi so to say and it is also used for the creation of the physical body, hence it is used up in the production of cells and fuids and in providing chi. post-heaven is from this side of creation (food, air,etc.) pre-heaven is much more subtle and can only be perceived when ones perception is very refined. To replenish and work with the pre-heaven is the work of alchemical systems of which neidan is one. best

[Meroe]

On 3/25/2017 at 6:54 PM, Aetherous said:

Buddhism is superior...mantrayana, mind training, etc. It has a clear goal, and clear signs of progress. It's useful in terms of making people better.

 

Neidan was a later invention of Daoism, drawn from the waidan tradition. The texts that discuss it are ridiculously cryptic. Its practices vary between schools of thought, so there isn't even a coherent neidan practice we can speak of. If it ever existed as a system of producing xianhood, it appears to not exist today...just a bunch of money makers out there in a sleazy marketplace. It has no mind training, such as becoming a better person...so what is the point? Are there clear signs of progress? No one even really knows what being a xian means...the goal is nebulous, and perhaps doesn't even exist.

 

What daoist order have you  been initiated into to give you the authority to make such declarations of the entire religion?

[Jessup2]

[Aetherous]

35 minutes ago, Meroe said:

What daoist order have you  been initiated into to give you the authority to make such declarations of the entire religion?

 

I'm not a traditional Daoist initiate. I'd love to be proven wrong!