karma and emptiness- void-etc

[danielsholl]

am very interested in the local approach and definition of karma and emptiness/void

[danielsholl]

why no interest in this topic?

[Jeff]

am very interested in the local approach and definition of karma and emptiness/void

 

Not sure there is a local approach, but here is my view...

 

Karma is stored issues, fears and obstructions and tends to drive autopilot like responses to things. That autopilot response system is like the classical physics of motion...A body in motion, stays in motion.  That motion can carry across what you might call "lives".

 

Emptiness is not the same as what many call the void.  Emptiness is more like the Void with motion of that void. That motion/movement could also be called "infinite potential".

[Stosh]

why no interest in this topic?

Timing? dunno, but I thought the question was a bit broad, and I don't want to speak for everyone else. Like Jeff indicated , opinions vary a lot on here. How's living in Mexico been ? do any birding ?  

Edited March 29, 2017 by Stosh

[dwai]

Karma has meaning only locally. Non-locally karma has no meaning. By local I mean identification with the mind-body.

[Jeff]

Karma has meaning only locally. Non-locally karma has no meaning. By local I mean identification with the mind-body.

So you don't see that a group or even a society can have (joint/interrelated) karma?

[dwai]

So you don't see that a group or even a society can have (joint/interrelated) karma?

Isn't a forest a collection of trees?

[Jeff]

Isn't a forest a collection of trees?

Then maybe my confusion is in the word "locally".

 

Also, to me a forest is far more than simply a collection of trees. It is ecosystem of interaction. An ecosystem can have its own level a karma, that does not just reside in the individual trees...

[Jetsun]

why no interest in this topic?

Post in general discussion and you will probably get more posts, many people like me don't read this section much

[doc benway]

am very interested in the local approach and definition of karma and emptiness/void

 

Two massive and daunting topics for discussion!

 

I just posted some thoughts on karma here if you're interested.

 

Emptiness/void - some random musings.

Not my favorite English words to describe the concept of the non-conceptual, particularly void.

I think it's equally important to tack on the implication of what the emptiness and void refer to.

Both terms refer specifically to the inability to identify an inherently existing and independent observer or object of observation.

The implication is not non-existence but the words empty and void often suggest that which leads to nihilism.

 

Emptiness in terms of its implication regarding the nature of mind and the nature of reality is equivalent to the word wholeness. 

Void is equivalent to fullness. 

 

While we can use the technique of skillful examination and debate to demonstrate that a table is empty of inherent existence and that the one I refer to as me is equally empty, it is inaccurate to deny the experience of this very moment in which the empty "I" can see and feel the table and think and be. 

 

I have gravitated to the Bönpo tradition and embrace their teachings on emptiness. There is a very strong emphasis on direct experience and connection to this through practice as well as logic. I will likely never have the time or motivation to live in a monastery and spend a decade studying the art of debate and philosophy to get my geshe degree, therefore my best chance of "understanding" emptiness is through practice.

 

The Bönpos look at emptiness as having three distinct but inseparable characteristics -

1. space - refers to openness, unboundedness, changelessness, formlessness, deathless and birthless, lack of center

2. awareness - refers to presence, knowing (in particular knowing this essence or mode of "existence"), clarity, light

3. warmth - refers to the unlimited potentiality, energy of engagement, the spark of connection, bliss

 

So many intellectual discussions on emptiness leave me with a nihilistic feeling of non-existence. I think that is because the one thing the thinking mind can do effectively is think about itself, to look for itself, this is a very good way to engage, occupy, and eventually exhaust its endless thirst to explain and define. Once that is exhausted, we can rest in the absence and engage fully in the infinite possibility of being. That infinite potential cannot be captured, only experienced through direct and undivided attention so I think it comes later in the process and many of us never get there because we get to tied up in the first part, the negation of the inherently independent selfness in us and in others and objects. 

 

If you made it this far, thanks for listening to me ramble.

 

Peace

[SpiritME]

Not sure there is a local approach, but here is my view...

 

Karma is stored issues, fears and obstructions and tends to drive autopilot like responses to things. That autopilot response system is like the classical physics of motion...A body in motion, stays in motion.  That motion can carry across what you might call "lives".

 

Emptiness is not the same as what many call the void.  Emptiness is more like the Void with motion of that void. That motion/movement could also be called "infinite potential".

Hi Jeff

 

What i found very interesting was the sentence: That motion can carry across what you might call "lives".

 

What is lives in your opinion or what did you mean by what you call lives, like lives are something else??

 

Thanks

[dawei]

Karma has meaning only locally. Non-locally karma has no meaning. By local I mean identification with the mind-body.

 

can't the mind-body have non-local associations?   

 

Karma may be a mind meaning idea... but can it exist outside of mind, or at least outside of what we can know?

 

To me, Mind-Body is a troublesome phrase.   There is much outside of mind-body going on. 

 

My query may be going outside of karma proper but curious as to your thought

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff

 

What i found very interesting was the sentence: That motion can carry across what you might call "lives".

 

What is lives in your opinion or what did you mean by what you call lives, like lives are something else??

 

Thanks

From the perspective on being in time and space, it would be like past and future lives. But it is really more like fractured components of a broader whole. Could say like pieces of a soul/spirit. Beyond time and space, it is really all just concurrent aspects.

 

Karma is like classical physics. A body in motion, stays in motion. Unresolved issues and fears keep the motion going and it crosses those lives/aspects.

[SpiritME]

From the perspective on being in time and space, it would be like past and future lives. But it is really more like fractured components of a broader whole. Could say like pieces of a soul/spirit. Beyond time and space, it is really all just concurrent aspects.

 

Karma is like classical physics. A body in motion, stays in motion. Unresolved issues and fears keep the motion going and it crosses those lives/aspects.

 

THANKS!!!

[C T]

can't the mind-body have non-local associations?   

 

Karma may be a mind meaning idea... but can it exist outside of mind, or at least outside of what we can know?

 

To me, Mind-Body is a troublesome phrase.   There is much outside of mind-body going on. 

 

My query may be going outside of karma proper but curious as to your thought

Interesting.. What would some of these going-ons be, Dawei? And how would one know that which goes on outside of body-mind? 

[dawei]

Interesting.. What would some of these going-ons be, Dawei? And how would one know that which goes on outside of body-mind? 

 

For some, it might be universal presence or one mind among the ten thousand or residing in infinity.   This became much more apparent to me after I realized I was not transmitting to the universe of time/space but it was being received by me.   Once one experiences the latter, one can realize the mind may be interpreting something but it did not cause the communication.

 

I watched the TV series Iron Fist as a recommendation of my son... later I told him the story of what it is truly like to be in the presence of Kunlun... the one that reaches out to you via the deities.  Interacting with deities clearly seems to be outside of body-mind.  It is more like a gateway to the universal aspect they also reside within. 

[dawei]

Imagine dreaming you're a butterfly. When is it no longer a dream ?

 

It reveals that our conscious and subconscious create a dichotomy but once you are awake and can dream or asleep and yet be awake shows these two sides are really closer than we realize.

 

If I plant a flower in universal consciousness can you see or find or feel or experience its growth?