Questions to Spring Forest Qigong students

[New2Qigong]

These days I’m reading Born A Healer by Chunyin Lin and I’m feeling more attracted to his teachings so I’ve tried and old video of his SFQ level 1 that I had and I like it a lot, I find it very similar to Robert Peng’s teachings. I would like to give it a try to the 100 days of qigong challenge that he promotes on his website.

 

The thing is that there are 2 points in his teachings that I can’t quite catch yet:

 

 

1) The location of the lower dan tien.

 

Any of the SFQ practitioners here on this forum could explain why Marter Lin locates it below the navel?

 

 

2) I find it difficult to understand the mechanics of his qigong breathing (some call it here reverse breathing).

 

Master Chunyin Lin explains:

 

 

“As you breathe in, draw the lower part of your stomach in a little. As you breathe out let your stomach out”

 

 

Whenever I try it I tend to expand my upper chest when inhaling, when I think it’s the abdomen which has to get expanded … ? In few breathes I end up breathless so, obviously, as I said, I don’t get it

 

 

Is there any good soul here willing to help me understand these points?

 

 

[Sudhamma]

Location of LDT: it is 3-finger width along the centre-line below your navel.

Reverse Abdominal Breathing: the instruction is correct that when you breathe in, the LDT (not the whole abdomen) is pulled in, and when breathing out, expands outwards. There is more to RAB than what has been told to you by your teacher. You may have to put in some time before going to the next stage. RAB is 'reverse' diaphragm breathing. Do not use your chest, 'collapse' your chest, 'round' the back when doing the RAB.

 

I'm not a SFQ practitioner.

[RiverSnake]

Habitual tension from living in an overstressed society causes us to breathe from the chest. Belly breathing is how infants breath....it takes time to get back to that state of being natural in the breath. Don't stress about about learning everything at once. MCO is also a core technique he teaches.  

 

An interview with Chunyi Lin: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/16067-interview-with-chunyi-lin-of-spring-forest-qigong/

Edited March 28, 2017 by OldAngel

[New2Qigong]

Hello Sudhamma,

 

Location of LDT: it is 3-finger width along the centre-line below your navel.

 

Yes, I know; I made a mistake typing my post; where I wrote:

 

 

 

Any of the SFQ practitioners here on this forum could explain why Master Lin locates it below the navel?

 

 

I should have said: ... why Master Lin locates it behind the navel.

 

 

Reverse Abdominal Breathing: the instruction is correct that when you breathe in, the LDT (not the whole abdomen) is pulled in, and when breathing out, expands outwards. There is more to RAB than what has been told to you by your teacher. You may have to put in some time before going to the next stage. RAB is 'reverse' diaphragm breathing. Do not use your chest, 'collapse' your chest, 'round' the back when doing the RAB.

 

Thank you for these guide lines; I think I understand it a bit better, but still I don't find it easy to breathe fully while pulling in the LDT. I'll keep on practicing though.

 

 

 

 

 

[New2Qigong]

I forgot!

 

I'm not a SFQ practitioner.

 

Thank you for answering anyway!!

 

I thought there were more SFQ practitioners here on this forum...

 

 

[New2Qigong]

Hello OldAngel,

 

 

Don't stress over worry about learning everything at once.

 

You are right; I'll have to stop and learn the different parts of the sequence separately before putting them together.

 

Thank you for the link to the interview with Master Chunyin Lin, I really enjoyed it.

 

 

[nyerstudent]

Hello,

 

I used to practice SFQ and still occasionally do - it's really great! 

 

Re: reverse breathing, it also felt (still does actually) awkward for me to perform. So, I took Master Lin's suggestion and just breathe normally while doing the Active Exercises and Small Universe...it works great. There may be some benefits to reverse breathing that I'm missing out on, but the exercises are still enormously effective no matter how you breathe in my experience. 

 

One other tip - when I was starting out, I didn't feel much from Small Universe. Stick with it...within 1-2 weeks it was my favorite part of the system. Try starting out with 5-10 minutes and go from there. 

 

Good luck!

[Sudhamma]

Hi New2Qigoing, the point 'behind the navel' lies in the centre of the body, between the spine and the navel. That point is on the Chong Mai (Centre meridian), and is not the dan tien. Will have to check the meridian charts for the name if it is important. On RAB breathing, if your chest rises with every breath you take, then it is not correct. The breathing should not be forced nor forceful. You can place one hand on the spot below the navel and feel the rising and falling of the breath in the LDT.

[Sudhamma]

Hi New2Qigong, concerning what I wrote about RAB, I should caution you that the method I described are for breathing in and out through the nose, and not for a breathing system using the mouth. But, if that is what is being taught by your teacher, then so be it. i should have watch the videos on SFQ first before replying to you.

[Aletheia]

Imagine a thin thread attached from the bottom of you diaphragm to your perineum and then when you breath the thread shortens and pulls the diaphragm and perineum towards one another while the stomach muscles slowly push inward. That seems to work. So the breathing all happens below the lungs.

 

EDIT: That's just my opinion. I have somewhat followed SFQ but am not that knowledgable about the teachings tbh.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Aletheia

[chi 2012]

The lower dantien for SFQ has always been behind the navel and not below it.  He also recomends reverse breathing where you pull your stomach in slightly on the inhale.  Both of these are minor details though.  Chunyi Lin always says to listen to your body and if you feel like doing the exercises in a different way then go ahead.  So if you're more comfortable with the dantien below the belly button or not doing the reverse breathing - it won't mess anything up and you'll still get good results....He also always talks about Good...Better...and Best......So there's no wrong ways to do the exercises.

[New2Qigong]

Hi nyerstudent,

 

Re: reverse breathing, it also felt (still does actually) awkward for me to perform. So, I took Master Lin's suggestion and just breathe normally while doing the Active Exercises and Small Universe...it works great. There may be some benefits to reverse breathing that I'm missing out on, but the exercises are still enormously effective no matter how you breathe in my experience. 

 

 

Yes, I will end up going back to normal / yogic breathing if I find reverse breathing hard to accomplish; I'm still trying to learn it little by little.

 

 

Thank you for your good tips and good wishing!

[New2Qigong]

Hello Sudhamma,
 

Hi New2Qigoing, the point 'behind the navel' lies in the centre of the body, between the spine and the navel. That point is on the Chong Mai (Centre meridian), and is not the dan tien. Will have to check the meridian charts for the name if it is important.

 
 
The name is not really important for me, but I know where the LDT is supposed to be and Master Chunyi Lin places it behind the navel... And he calls it LDT! So that's why I am a little confused...
 
 
 

On RAB breathing, if your chest rises with every breath you take, then it is not correct. The breathing should not be forced nor forceful. You can place one hand on the spot below the navel and feel the rising and falling of the breath in the LDT.

 

But any breathing which is not natural, it's forced, right? That is how I find it at the moment, trying to get used to it.

 

 

 

(...) concerning what I wrote about RAB, I should caution you that the method I described are for breathing in and out through the nose, and not for a breathing system using the mouth.

 

Oh, don't worry, the breathing is nasal (through the nose) in SFQ, at least as far as I know in Level 1

 

Thank you for your posts
 

[New2Qigong]

Hello Aletheia,

 

Imagine a thin thread attached from the bottom of you diaphragm to your perineum and then when you breath the thread shortens and pulls the diaphragm and perineum towards one another while the stomach muscles slowly push inward. That seems to work. So the breathing all happens below the lungs.

 

Interesting, I'll keep this in mind.

 

Thank you!

[New2Qigong]

Hello chi 2012,

 

(...) Chunyi Lin always says to listen to your body and if you feel like doing the exercises in a different way then go ahead.  So if you're more comfortable with the dantien below the belly button or not doing the reverse breathing - it won't mess anything up and you'll still get good results....He also always talks about Good...Better...and Best......So there's no wrong ways to do the exercises.

 

Yes, I've also considered that option, but at the beginning I'd like to be as loyal as possible with the teaching in order to get the maximum of them, that's why I'm being so "picky" about it.

 

If I find it very hard to follow, I'll have to go back to normal breathing.

 

Thank you tip and your time in replying

 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

 

 

The name is not really important for me, but I know where the LDT is supposed to be and Master Chunyi Lin places it behind the navel... And he calls it LDT! So that's why I am a little confused...

 

 

Maybe you can get hold on a senior student in the system and ask (nobody seems to be here though). There is probably a very good reason why he choose that point (I use it in my system, along with the LDT and other centers), and it would be a real disapointment to hear that it was because it is easy to locate.

[thelerner]

The style of reverse breathing I was taught was very slight.  A light tightening of the buttock area, the stomach moving inward is slight, not dramatic or tightening much.  Thus the feeling is a compression of the incoming air.

 

In some systems (which involve packing) the tightening and sucking in, may be more muscular and intense.  How does Spring Forest reverse breath fall upon that scale? 

[Sudhamma]

Thank you, Apeiron&Peiron for the link. It opens up a new horizon for me.

[Mudfoot]

Edited April 1, 2017 by Mudfoot

[Aletheia]

I would not put too much into that blogg. If you read it, the Blogger is ecstatic about understanding that the LDT is not on the Conception vessel.

 

The central channel is complicated. There is not just the three dantiens, there are usable centers on it like pearls on a string.

 

Can you call the point between the navel and the Ming men a part of the LDT complex? Yes, authors like Chia and Jerry Alan Johnson draws nine chambers in that area.

 

Is it a center for transformation? Yes.

Is it a center that transfers? Yes.

Does it store? Personally, I would lead my intention further down.

 

I could list references to this that are clearer than in the above link, but as chief Bogo says, "I don't care"

I saw Drew updated his blog and mentions you. I think you better watch your step too because speaking generally here and from personal experience I think Drew is pretty much right about everything! (Big groan and rolled eyes from over half the forum members lol)

Edited April 1, 2017 by Aletheia

[chi 2012]

I knew I'd seen the LDT question before on the Learning Strategies SFQ forum.  So I looked and came across this thread

https://www.learningstrategies.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=48658&page=all

 

Shawn Grim the moderator whos wife is a SFQ healer posted this answer

 

"The lower dantien question comes up frequently, as the "below" which is refered to so much in related forms/work , can be interpreted as toward the feet or toward the center of the body from the navel. Master Lin usually tells a story about putting the question out in his meditation and three of his Masters showed up and pressed into and behindhis navel. From then on he's used "behind" so it's clearer.

It's interesting the number of friends also in the martial arts are almost excited when they hear him saying "behind". It's almost a "coming out of hiding" for them as they start sharing how that's where it's always naturally focused in for them too, but the people and style they've studied under kept saying below (toward the feet)."

[chi 2012]

The style of reverse breathing I was taught was very slight.  A light tightening of the buttock area, the stomach moving inward is slight, not dramatic or tightening much.  Thus the feeling is a compression of the incoming air.

 

In some systems (which involve packing) the tightening and sucking in, may be more muscular and intense.  How does Spring Forest reverse breath fall upon that scale? 

 

No it's gentle for SFQ.  Just the stomach being drawn in slightly on the inhale.  The basic breathing for SFQ is a slow deep breath while bringing the stomach in slightly on the inhale while the mind is on the LDT.  Visualize healing energy coming from the end of the universe through the pores and filling every cell of the body and the energy collects in the LDT.  On the  exhale visualize any sickness or blockage turning into smoke or butterflies and being sent out to the end of the universe.  Also tongue on roof of the mouth.

Edited April 2, 2017 by chi 2012

[Aeran]

Very interesting... When I first started my spiritual practice I trained for a time under a pair of teachers who also claimed that the LDT was located at the height of the navel, as opposed to the traditional location further down. I always wondered where they came across this idea (they were always evasive when questioned about it, and despite researching the subject I could find no other sources which validated their teachings on this subject) - given their geographical location, it looks like I almost certainly have an answer now.

 

For what it's worth, I always found using that location very uncomfortable and unintuitive, and it seemed to me that most of the energy I tried to direct there using their practices would simply sink a little further down to the traditional LDT location. But that isn't to say that it might not work for other people of course.

 

Out of curiosity (and apologies if I'm hijacking the thread) - where does the Spring Forest Qigong system place the Middle Dantien? 

[New2Qigong]

Maybe you can get hold on a senior student in the system and ask (nobody seems to be here though). There is probably a very good reason why he choose that point (I use it in my system, along with the LDT and other centers), and it would be a real disapointment to hear that it was because it is easy to locate.

 

 

Maybe you can get hold on a senior student in the system and ask (nobody seems to be here though).

 

Hello Mudfoot,

 

Yeah, that was my intention when posting this question here on this forum, I thought there would be more SFQ practitioners but I see I was mistaken...

[New2Qigong]

Many systems just move qi around to break up blocks and never get to a stage where something could be stored. For that reason, they tend to confuse the sea of qi and lower dantian. The lower dantian is behind the navel, though.

 

https://voidisyinyang.blogspot.com/2017/03/real-lower-tan-tien-is-behind-navel-not.html#comment-form

 

Hello Apeiron&Peiron,

 

So there's a current of thought which considers the LDT to be behind the navel?? That's a revelation to me!!

 

Thank you for the link, quite interesting indeed