Questions to Spring Forest Qigong students

[New2Qigong]

I knew I'd seen the LDT question before on the Learning Strategies SFQ forum.  So I looked and came across this thread

https://www.learningstrategies.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=48658&page=all

 

Shawn Grim the moderator whos wife is a SFQ healer posted this answer

 

"The lower dantien question comes up frequently, as the "below" which is refered to so much in related forms/work , can be interpreted as toward the feet or toward the center of the body from the navel. Master Lin usually tells a story about putting the question out in his meditation and three of his Masters showed up and pressed into and behindhis navel. From then on he's used "behind" so it's clearer.

It's interesting the number of friends also in the martial arts are almost excited when they hear him saying "behind". It's almost a "coming out of hiding" for them as they start sharing how that's where it's always naturally focused in for them too, but the people and style they've studied under kept saying below (toward the feet)."

 

 

Hello Chi 2012,

 

Thank you for sharing this post you found on the Learning Strategies SFQ forum; that story clearing this topic up is awesome.

[New2Qigong]

Out of curiosity (and apologies if I'm hijacking the thread) - where does the Spring Forest Qigong system place the Middle Dantien? 

 

Hello Aeran,

 

This is from the SFQ website:

 

You talk a lot about energy in the body. Is any one place more important to focus on than others?

Traditional Chinese Medicine teaches us there are three major energy centers in the body: the Lower Dantian, Middle Dantian, and Upper Dantian. The Lower Dantian sits behind the navel, almost in the middle of the torso (this varies depending on the size of the body); the Middle Dantian is located in the bottom of the heart area directly in the middle of your chest; (.. Read More) the Upper Dantian is found in the third eye position, which is a couple of inches behind a spot located about one inch above your eyebrows in the middle of your forehead.

 

https://www.springforestqigong.com/ask-master-lin

[Aeran]

Hello Aeran,

 

This is from the SFQ website:

 

You talk a lot about energy in the body. Is any one place more important to focus on than others?

Traditional Chinese Medicine teaches us there are three major energy centers in the body: the Lower Dantian, Middle Dantian, and Upper Dantian. The Lower Dantian sits behind the navel, almost in the middle of the torso (this varies depending on the size of the body); the Middle Dantian is located in the bottom of the heart area directly in the middle of your chest; (.. Read More) the Upper Dantian is found in the third eye position, which is a couple of inches behind a spot located about one inch above your eyebrows in the middle of your forehead.

 

https://www.springforestqigong.com/ask-master-lin

 

Thanks. That seems to confirm my theory, since they also gave the location for the MDT as the bottom of the sternum - instead of the height of the center of the sternum/nipples, as in most layouts. It's neither here nor there for me of course, but interesting all the same. Cheers.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Aeran

[Sudhamma]

I would support Mudfoot of his #20. We do have 2 positions of LDT, one behind the navel, and the other 3 'inch' below the navel.

 

 

Some call that point below the navel as Ocean/sea of Qi, Qihai, JM6, however, this point on the Conception Vessel is only 1 1/2 'inch' below the navel. It is therefore, not Qihai, but Guanyuan JM4 which is exactly 3 'inch' below the navel. To locate these two points for needle insertion, the person must lie down. On the other hand, Shenque, JM8 is in the middle of the navel.

 

 

What then is behind JM8, the navel? There is a point named as Zhenxue which is the mid-point between the navel and Mingmen. This point is directly above Huiyin and is mentioned in the system of “opening the 8-extraordinary meridians”. However, I could not find the point, Zhenxue in the “anatomical charts of the acupuncture points and 14 meridians”. Perhaps, acupuncturists in our midst can lend a hand?

 

 

Is dan tien, a general area, that some systems pin-point the LDT as behind the navel whereas, others maintained it to be the Guanyuan point? And will the point behind the navel which is located in the supine position move downwards below the navel when the person stands up? But if there is such as point named Zhenxue, then how could a pressure point be moved up and down?

 

In the link provided by Apeiron&peiron, it mentioned that the fluid flows down from ‘LDT’ and is gathered below the navel. The point, Guanyuan has been used in many qigong and martial practices and is the point that I find it easier to use in RAB then the point behind the navel. However, I must add that in the ‘opening of the 8 extraordinary meridians, the mysterious point Zhenxue is used (but not as a storage point, dan tien). I will continue using Guanyuan, 3-inch below the navel as the LDT.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Sudhamma]

Since the lower dan tian is a general ‘area’ of energy, it can cover a couple of pressure points, Qihai and Guanyuan. However, there is one translated Chinese passage that said the Guanyuan que, that point 3-inch below the navel is the (lower) dan tian. That passage was said to come from China’s national acupuncture academy.  Under the heading, Xi Que Yang Shen Fa, “The Four Pressure Points in the Cultivation of Health”, Guanyuan que is also named as Dan Tian, three inch below the navel, is one of the person’s important points. I’ve here an extract, edited, from Wikipedia that also maintained that the LDT is 3-inch below the navel. Can both and those ‘experts’ referenced in the article be wrong? However, having said that, I’ve also read from other sources that similar to what is taught in SFQ, LDT is behind the navel. I suppose that to each his own and practise well what is being taught, be it behind (small intestines?) or below the navel. What is important is to experience the effectiveness of either location. If a location does not result in, for want of a better word, ‘storing’ energy, than dump it. My experience with 3-inch below the navel is by far without problems.

 

An extract (edited) on Dan Tian from Wikipedia.

 

Quote

Dantian

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Dantian, dan t'ian, dan tien or tan t'ien is loosely translated as "elixir field", "sea of qi", or simply "energy center". Dantian are the Qi Focus Flow Centers, important focal points for meditative and exercise techniques such as qigong, martial arts such as t'ai chi ch'uan, and in traditional Chinese medicine.^[1][2]

 

Overview

Historically the first detailed description of the lower Dantian is in the Laozi zhongjing 老子中經 from the 3rd century CE, it refers to the Cinnabar field where Essence and Spirit are stored, it is related to regeneration and sexual energy, menstruation and semen.^[3] Traditionally, a dantian is considered to be a center of qi or life force energy.^[1][2]

The dantian are important points of reference in neidan, qigong, neigong, tao yin, Taoist sexual practices, Reiki^[4] and other self-cultivation practices of exercise, breathing, and meditation, as well as in martial arts and in traditional Chinese medicine. The lower dantian is particularly important as the focal point of breathing technique as well as the centre of balance and gravity. Dantian are focal points for transmutation of the three treasures Jing, Qi and Shen. Qi can be seen as a substance when it is stored in the form of Essence or Jing, this can be refined by heating in these cauldrons into more rarefied states such as Qi which is insubstantial and further still into Shen which is more like the Western concept of Mind although it is more often translated as Spirit.^[5]

Taoist and Buddhist teachers often instruct their students to centre the mind in the navel or lower dantian. This is believed to aid control of thoughts and emotions. Acting from the dantian is considered to be related to higher states of awareness or samadhi.

The Taoist concept of dantian as energy centers is similar to the Indian yoga concept of chakras as key points where prana is stored (see also nadis). The major difference, however, is that Taoist dantian are the major energetic storage mechanisms whereas the yogic chakras are not so much storage centers, but energetic vortices which act as intake and output ports. Many traditions consider the dantian and the chakras to be separate, albeit cooperative energetic mechanisms.

 

Three dantians

Different schools of thought categorize dantian in various manners. Three main dantian are typically emphasized:^[1][2]

Lower dantian (下丹田, Xià Dāntián): below the navel (about three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel), which is also called "the golden stove" (金炉 pinyin: Jīn lú) or the namesake "cinnabar field" proper, where the process of developing the elixir by refining and purifying essence (jing) into vitality (qi) begins.^[6]

Middle dantian (中丹田, Zhōng Dāntián): at the level of the heart, which is also called "the crimson palace", associated with storing Spirit (Shen) and with respiration and health of the internal organs, in particular the thymus gland. This cauldron is where vitality or Qi is refined into Shen or spirit;^[7]

Upper dantian (上丹田, Shàng Dāntián): at the forehead between the eyebrows or third eye, which is also called "the muddy pellet", associated with the pineal gland. This cauldron is where Shen or spirit is refined into Wu Wei or emptiness.^[5][8]

 

Importance of the lower dantian

The term dantian used by itself usually refers to the lower dantian, which is considered to be the foundation of rooted standing, breathing, and body awareness in qigong, Chinese martial arts, and other martial arts.^[9] The lower dantian has been described to be "like the root of the tree of life".^[2]

In speaking of the lower of the three energy centers, the term dantian is often used interchangeably with the Japanese word hara (腹; Chinese: fù) which means simply "belly". In Chinese, Korean, and Japanese traditions, it is considered the physical center of gravity of the human body and is the seat of one's internal energy (qi). A master of calligraphy, swordsmanship, tea ceremony, martial arts, among other arts, is held in the Japanese tradition to be "acting from the hara".

The lower dantian corresponds to the yoga concept of the swadhisthana chakra. In yoga philosophy, it is thought to be the seat of prana that radiates outwards to the entire body.^[10]

 

References

1.Yang, Jwing-Ming. (1989). The root of Chinese Chi kung: the secrets of Chi kung training. Yang's Martial Arts Association. ISBN 0-940871-07-6.

2.Cohen, K. S. (1999). The Way of Qigong: The Art and Science of Chinese Energy Healing. Random House of Canada. ISBN 0-345-42109-4.

3.Laozi zhongjing (Central Scripture of Laozi), sec. 17. Translation published in Fabrizio Pregadio, "Early Daoist Meditation and the Origins of Inner Alchemy", in Benjamin Penny, ed., Daoism in History: Essays in Honour of Liu Ts'un-yan, 139-40 (London: Routledge, 2006). http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/texts_laozi_zhongjing.html

4.http://www.aetw.org/reiki_ifaq6.htm#9

5.T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Meditation by Da Liu, page 92 - Routledge and Keegan Paul 1987 ISBN 0-14-019217-4

6.Taoist Yoga by Lu K'uan Yu page 10. (Rider , 1970) This area is associated with the Sea of Qi.

7.http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/dantian.html

8.The doctrine of the elixir by R. B. Jefferson Coombe Springs Press 1982 chapter 4. The Archaic Anatomy of Individual Organs

9."Power Generation in Martial Arts: Axis, the Spine, and the Center". Full Potential Martial Arts. Retrieved 27 March 2015.

10.T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Meditation by Da Liu, pages 91-92 - Routledge and Keegan Paul 1987 ISBN 0-14-019217-4

 

Chia, Mantak. Cosmic Orbit: Connect to the Universe from Within. Universal Tao Publications, 2005. ISBN 974-85401-4-6.

Jefferson, R.B. Doctrine of the Elixir. Coombe Springs Press, 1982. ISBN 0-900306-15-7. Full text here

Lu K'uan Yu. Taoist Yoga. Rider, 1970. ISBN 0-7126-1725-6.

Porkert, Manfred. The Theoretical Foundations of Chinese Medicine. MIT Press, 1974. ISBN 0-262-16058-7.

Rouselle, Irwin. ‘Spiritual Guidance in Contemporary Taoism’. In Spiritual Disciplines: Papers from the Eranos Yearbooks. Princeton University Press, 1960. ISBN 0-691-01863-4.

Wang, Mu. Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan. Golden Elixir Press, 2011. ISBN 978-0-9843082-5-5.

External links

Doctrine of the Elixir - On the conception of the Dan Tian in Daoist cosmology.

Dan Tian in the Internal Martial Arts - Explanation of Dan Tian use in the martial arts.

An Shigao and Early Chinese Meditation Techniques - Phra Kiattisak Kittipanyo DIRI Journal Volume 1 pp. 98–118.

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dantian&oldid=768784281"

This page was last modified on 5 March 2017, at 19:41.

Unquote

[Sudhamma]

In the book, "The Tao of Taijiquan, Way to Rejuvenation" written by Jou, Tsung Hwa, a well-known taijichuan expert, in Chapter 3 Foundation, page 141 wrote "....During exhalation, the two qi's separate, the post-birth qi leaves the body through the nose, while the pre-birth qi sinks to the dantian, a point found three finger-widths below the navel and two finger-widths inside, causing the lower abdomen to expand." Can he be also taught wrong, and hence teaching others wrongly as well?

 

Those of practising taijichuan in the States would know who this Jou Tsung Hwa is and do need not any introduction.

 

I've made my point about where is this lower dan tian.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Mark Foote]

My only success in these matters has come as a result of the study of Western science, yet I will be the first to confess that what matters most to me is the relinquishment of habitual activity, conscious or unconscious, in the movement of breath.

 

With the accent on relaxation, freeing the direction of mind, and the experience of cessation, I do experience what Dogen's teacher Rujing described as breath entering and reaching the dan-t'ien, breath exiting the dan-tien.  Sometimes.  What keeps it alive for me is this notion that Olaf Blanke has put forward, that our sense of self, especially the self that is associated with our sense of location, is a result of the coordnation of the vestibular and proprioceptive senses, along with the senses of vision and of gravity.  Distinguishing these senses contributes to their coordination, as far as I can tell, and the lower dan-tien is really an experience of that sense of location in the surrender of activity in the movement of breath, behind (and usually below) the navel.

 

What's it about.  The three sets of abdominal muscles have ligamentous attachments to the rectus muscle, and these attachments are of equal length at a point a couple of inches below the navel.  

 

 

Looking to be so relaxed, that the only activity in the body is activity generated by the ligaments themselves in response to stretch, and the movement of breath.

 

Two means of support for the lower spine, one in the fascia immediately behind the sacrum, where the mass of the extensors (as they contract in alternation) presses rearward against the lumbodorsal facial sheet, and the other from pressure generated by the abdominals in the "fluid ball" of the abdomen, also pressing rearward against the lumbodorsal fascial sheet but now behind the lower spine:

 

The two means of support are autonomically coordinated in the natural movement of breath.  

 

The sense of self-location can occur at the lower dan-tien, a function of the individual senses Blanke described, as part of the autonomic coordination of displacement of the fascia behind the sacrum and lower spine in support of the movement of breath.  The ilio-lumbar, ilio-sacral and abdominal ligaments generate activity in response to the weight of the body, the activity serves to align the spine to provide ease at appropriate nerve exits, the nerve exits allow feeling below the skin and throughout the body to guide support in the movement of breath.

 

I have particulars in the work in my signature.

[Aeran]

It seems to me that the best thing to do would simply be to follow the example of a teacher who has demonstrably obtained results from their practices, perhaps combined with a bit of guided experimentation if your experience does not seem to line up with their own.

 

It could be (in fact I find it likely) that multiple locations can be used for similar functions in the context of different systems of cultivation, or alternatively, the location of a specific energy center could vary from individual to individual (I read at least one source which claimed that the height of the dantien varied based on one's distance from the equator at the time of birth). 

[Mark Foote]

This morning it occurs to me that I wasn't very clear, about reverse breathing.

 

I believe it's based on this:

 

 

In a bent-knee posture, the spine is supported by the horizontal ilio-lumbar ligaments in exhalation, and by the vertical ilio-lumbar ligaments in inhalation.  When support is realized relative to the direction of breath, the abdomen moves slightly outward on exhalation, and slightly inward on inhalation, yet only relaxation of activity and feeling of the whole body with no part left out is involved.

Lately I focus a lot on "turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind"--stretch in the ilio-tibial band and action in the sartorius, gluteous, and tensor muscles carries into the abdominals to sustain pressure in the fluid ball of the abdomen, and stretch in the lumbodorsal fascia behind the sacrum.   Here's a practice Gautama the Shakyan described for the cultivation of psychic powers:

 

So (one) abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.

As (one is conscious of what is) in front, so behind; as behind, so in front;

As below, so above; as above, so below;

As by day, so by night:  as by night, so by day.

Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, (one) cultivates (one's) mind to brilliancy.

 

(Samyutta-Nikaya, Volume V, 263; Pali Text Society translation volume V, pg 235)

 

 

No further explanation was offered for "before as behind, behind as before", yet I would say it's exactly "turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind" (which is Yuanwu's description, from "The Blue Cliff Record" case 17).  With regard to "above as below, below as above", Gautama described mindfulness of each part of the body and of the internal organs, from the soles of the feet to the crown of the head and from the crown of the head to the soles of the feet, just as is (I tend toward "soles to crown" on inhalation, and "crown to soles" on exhalation--in the dentist's chair, I found myself holding my teeth with my feet, and my feet with my teeth, not exactly "as is").  "As by day, so by night:  as by night, so by day" referred to observing the sign of the concentration.  

There's a happiness in the relinquishment of volition in inhalation and exhalation.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Sudhamma]

Thank you Mark Foote for "What keeps it alive for me is this notion that Olaf Blanke has put forward, that our sense of self, especially the self that is associated with our sense of location, is a result of the coordnation of the vestibular and proprioceptive senses, along with the senses of vision and of gravity.  Distinguishing these senses contributes to their coordination, as far as I can tell, and the lower dan-tien is really an experience of that sense of location in the surrender of activity in the movement of breath, behind (and usually below) the navel." It kept me alive as well, an experience in awareness.