Mair 6:4

[Marblehead]

Sir Sunflower of Southunc inquired of Woman Hunchback, saying, "You are old in years, ma'am, but your complexion is like that of a child.  How is this?"

"I have heard the Way."

"Can I learn the Way?" asked Sir Sunflower of Southunc.

"Oh, no!  You can't.  You're not the person for it.  There was Lotbridge Learner {{Puliang Yi or Pu Liangyi.  His name might also be interpreted as "Lotmeasure Extraordinary."}} who had the ability of a sage but not the Way of a sage.  I have the Way of a sage but not the ability of a sage.  I wanted to teach him, in hopes that he would truly become a sage, you see?  In any event, it should have been easy to teach the Way of a sage to someone with the ability of a sage.  Still, I had to instruct him and watch over him.  After three days, he could put all under heaven beyond him.  Once he was able to put all under heaven beyond him, I watched over him again.  After seven days, he could put things beyond him.  Once he was able to put things beyond him, I watched over him again.  After nine days, he could put life beyond him.  Once he was able to put life beyond him, he could then see with the clarity of morning light.  Seeing with the clarity of morning light, he could envision uniqueness.  Envisioning uniqueness, he could eliminate past and present.  Eliminating past and present, he could enter the realm of lifelessness and deathlessness, where that which kills life does not die and that which engenders life does not live.  As for what sort of thing it is, there's nothing that it doesn't send off, nothing that it doesn't welcome, nothing that it doesn't destroy, and nothing that it doesn't bring to completion.  Its name is Tranquillity in Turmoil.  Tranquillity in Turmoil may be defined as that which is brought to completion after passing through turmoil."

"Wherever did you learn all this?" asked Sir Sunflower of Southunc.

"I learned it from the son of Assistant Ink.  Assistant Ink's son learned it from the grandson of Ready Reciter.  Ready Reciter's grandson learned it from Bright Vision.  Bright Vision learned it from Agreeable Whisper.  Agreeable Whisper learned it from Earnest Service.  Earnest Service learned it from Sighing Songster.  Sighing Songster learned it from Murky Mystery.  Murky Mystery learned it from Share Vacuity.  Share Vacuity learned it from Would-be Beginning."

[Taoist Texts]

hunchbacks again?

 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, that isn't as smooth as some other translations.  But the concept is there.  (Although I don't know how valuable it is.)

[morning dew]

I'm still pondering on this. I found this translation a bit less incomprehensible, although Woman Hunchback appears to have turned into a Sir in this one, for some reason:

 

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Nan-bo Zi-kui asked Nu Yu, saying, 'You are old, Sir, while your complexion is like that of a child; how is it so?' The reply was, 'I have become acquainted with the Dao.' The other said, 'Can I learn the Dao?' Nu Yu said, 'No. How can you? You, Sir, are not the man to do so. There was Bu-liang Yi who had the abilities of a sagely man, but not the Dao, while I had the Dao, but not the abilities. I wished, however, to teach him, if, peradventure, he might become the sagely man indeed. If he should not do so, it was easy (I thought) for one possessing the Dao of the sagely man to communicate it to another possessing his abilities. Accordingly, I proceeded to do so, but with deliberation. After three days, he was able to banish from his mind all worldly (matters). This accomplished, I continued my intercourse with him in the same way; and in seven days he was able to banish from his mind all thought of men and things. This accomplished, and my instructions continued, after nine days, he was able to count his life as foreign to himself. This accomplished, his mind was afterwards clear as the morning; and after this he was able to see his own individuality. That individuality perceived, he was able to banish all thought of Past or Present. Freed from this, he was able to penetrate to (the truth that there is no difference between) life and death - (how) the destruction of life is not dying, and the communication of other life is not living. (The Dao) is a thing which accompanies all other things and meets them, which is present when they are overthrown and when they obtain their completion. Its name is Tranquillity amid all Disturbances, meaning that such Disturbances lead to Its Perfection.'

'And how did you, being alone (without any teacher), learn all this?' 'I learned it,' was the reply, 'from the son of Fu-mo; he learned it from the grandson of Luo-song; he learned it from Zhan-ming; he learned it from Nie-xu; he, from Xu-yu; he, from Ou; he, from Xuan-ming; he, from Shen-liao; and he learned it from Yi-shi.'

 

 

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=2755

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, morning dew said:

I'm still pondering on this. I found this translation a bit less incomprehensible, although Woman Hunchback appears to have turned into a Sir in this one, for some reason:

'woman' here is a last name (rǔ) not a female(nu), Mair does not know that a gender appellation always follows a given name and does not precede it.

 

Simplified, the dialog goes:

 

A: why are you so young looking?

B: I heard dao.

A: Can dao be studied on one's own, as opposed to be heard?

B: Oh, no. It must be told by someone else. E. g. there was Bu who had talent but not the way; while i had the way but did not have a talented student. I wanted to teach him  since he had a chance for a sage-hood. It is easier to teach the sagely dao to someone who has the sagely talent, is not it. (...)

A:  How you,  personally, happened to hear dao?

B: This is my lineage (...).

[morning dew]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

'woman' here is a last name (rǔ) not a female(nu), Mair does not know that a gender appellation always follows a given name and does not precede it.

 

Mair seems to struggle when translating names, although, to be fair, at least he gives it a go.

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

 E. g. there was Bu who had talent but not the way; while i had the way but did not have a talented student.

Now this makes a bit more sense to me. The two translations we have on here have:
 

Quote

 

There was Bu-liang Yi who had the abilities of a sagely man, but not the Dao, while I had the Dao, but not the abilities.

 

There was Lotbridge Learner {{Puliang Yi or Pu Liangyi.  His name might also be interpreted as "Lotmeasure Extraordinary."}} who had the ability of a sage but not the Way of a sage.  I have the Way of a sage but not the ability of a sage. 

 

 

How does one have the Way of a sage or the Dao without the abilities of a sage? This doesn't seem very logical to me.

Edited May 21, 2017 by morning dew

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

How does one have the Way of a sage or the Dao without the abilities of a sage? This doesn't seem very logical to me.

It is not;). They got confused with all these nouns and pronouns).

[morning dew]

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

It is not;). They got confused with all these nouns and pronouns).

 

Yeah, I wonder what the difficulty is here. I've been having a look at VM's homepage and he certainly seems qualified enough to be doing a serious translation – although, to be fair, the book was written back in 1998, and also he doesn't seem to be the only one struggling with translating the ZZ in places.

 

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/ealc/mair

 

This is an interesting review on Amazon about VM's book:

 

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32 of 35 people found the following review helpful

3.0 out of 5 stars Good but not indispensable translation of the Chuang Tzu 23 April 2008

By Elliot Knapp - Published on Amazon.com

Format: Paperback

The Chuang Tzu (rendered Zhuangzi in pinyin, which is becoming the standard transliteration these days) is second only to Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching in its popularity and veneration in the Taoist world. If you've not heard of or read this book before, you're in for a real treat! The first time I read the Inner Chapters of the Chuang Tzu was like a revelation--the thoughts and ideas expressed in these passages still resonate today for their acuity, humor, satire, stabbing profundity, and life-changing potential. Indeed, after better understanding the thought this book expresses, I felt like so many loose ideas and insights I'd gleaned from other philosophy, literature, music, and poetry had been tied up together and formulated into a concise and elegant package that is urgently relevant to every day life--pretty amazing for a text that is well over 2000 years old!

I recently finished reading Mair's translation of the Chuang Tzu--it was the third complete translation I've read, and while I found that it accurately conveys the spirit and ideas of the Chuang Tzu, it doesn't get my vote for best translation. As a side note, I chose Mair's Chuang Tzu translation after being very impressed by his excellent and illuminating rendering of the Tao Te Ching. As he states in his introduction, Mair's mission in translating the Chuang Tzu is to convey the fact that it is primarily a literary classic (as opposed to a philosophical classic), and rather than expose it to philosophical scrutiny, his desire is to provide the most philologically-accurate translation possible, attempting to translate both the exact words of the Chinese, but also the exact style of the writing (poetry vs. prose, etc.) in a way he feels hasn't been done by other translators. I think he succeeded in his mission, but that his success is not one that benefits readers of his translation in an extremely meaningful way.

The problem, I think, is that ancient Chinese is just so different from English that attempts to transfer the poetic and structural beauty of the Chinese to English are doomed to come up short. Although Mair sets off poetic passages in the text's formatting, this effect doesn't really enhance the writing or ideas, and it's tough to get a feeling for why the Chinese is so linguistically beautiful. Likewise, his goal of omitting ornamentation (e.g. a modern translator subbing "exclaimed" for the more boring and repetative [but accurate] "said") is noble, but really doesn't impact the force of the text. In my opinion, as long as the ideas and beauty of Chuang Tzu's thought is clearly expressed, the exact wording and accuracy of translation is not necessarily of paramount importance (it seems Chuang Tzu would agree, given his attitude toward the ultimate unreliability of language). Finally, Mair tends to translate the names of people and places into English (for example, he translates Lao Tan--Lao Tzu's given name--as "Old Longears"). These translations can be illuminating from an ideological perspective, but they tend to read very awkwardly and don't look like names on paper--I can't imagine a person named "Gorge Worker" or "Sir Square."

Nevertheless, Mair's translation is mostly very readable. Since modern understanding of ancient Chinese is so distant, the more translations you read of a book like the Chuang Tzu, the more likely you are to better understand all of its sections--there were numerous passages that I thought Mair rendered the most powerfully and insightfully out of all the translations I've read, and it was a worthwhile read for that reason alone. I do wish, though, that he had included footnotes or more in-depth introductions to each chapter. Especially with the Outer and Miscellaneous chapters, where the ideas and philosophy gets progressively more diluted with other traditions, some scholarly guidance really helps with understanding the text and enjoying it as much as the more readable Inner chapters.

If you haven't read the Chuang Tzu before, I'd recommend that you start with Burton Watson's Chuang Tzu: Basic Writings, which includes all the Inner chapters and most of the highlights from the rest of the book. If you're looking for your first complete translation, I'd go for Watson's The Complete Works of Chuang Tzu, which is the same translation as his Basic Writings, but it includes the rest of the text as well. I find Watson's translation is the most accurate representation of the spirit imbued in the Chuang Tzu, the most flowing and beautifully-worded translation, and the perfect balance of commentary and uncluttered translation. If you're well familiar with the text and want to dive deeper into understanding it, A.C. Graham's difficult-to-read but very insightfully structured The Inner Chapters is the most academic translation I've read.

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wandering-Way-Taoist-Parables-Chuang/dp/082482038X/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1495378805&sr=8-13&keywords=victor+mair#