Extracts vs. Whole Foods

[liminal_luke]

After reading The Neurogenesis Diet and Lifestyle: Upgrade Your Brain, Upgrade Your Life  by Brant Cortright, I`ve started taking some extracts: wild blueberry, green tea, and the Longvida form of tumeric.  It`s just been a few weeks, but so far I haven`t felt any difference and I`m wondering if I should continue investing in the program.

 

Philosophically, I`m more of a whole foods guy.  It`s hard to believe that anybody can pack a cup of blueberry nutrition into one or two tiny capsules.  On the other hand, there`s no way I`d end up having that many blueberrys otherwise.  The blueberrys that are available to me here in Mexico aren`t wild and they aren`t organic.  They are, however, expensive.  I can see myself brewing a cup of green tea everyday, but I`m unlikely to brew five cups.  

 

Maybe these herbs are doing wonderful things for me and I just haven`t noticed?  Or they would if I gave them more time?  Or am I just throwing money away, or worse, actually hurting myself?

 

Open to advice if you`ve got some.

Edited March 28, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Seatle185]

Hello, well the one thing i am always afraid of with vitamins/extracts is the actual quality of the products. Vitamins arent regulated so finding a good brand could take some experimenting. It could be that its no where near what it says on the bottle or not in an easily digested/assimilated form. Iv personally noticed it with my own supplements, sometimes id take something new and feel absolutely nothing, but id try a different brand and the effects were easily noticed pretty quickly. Its too bad we cant get samples from the different brands before we buy!

 

Another thought is maybe you are already so healthy that the extracts arent necessary? Hope it helps

[Seatle185]

I dont know where your buying now but personally i buy from purebulk.com they do have extracts, though not sure if they have the exact ones you want- didnt see blueberry at first glance :/ they have some others you might want though

 

They are so much cheaper than bottles youd buy in the store its insane.. i used to buy l-theanine capsules at the store for anywhere from 30-60 dollars for around months supply and they were huge capsules. Well i got probobly a year + supply for that amount of money here and whts interesting is the standard dose wouldnt even fit in the smallest capsules iv seen - just showed me how much filler powder is put into most supposedly pure supplements

 

Another thing i appreciate at the site is all of their batches are lab tested by a third party and you can request the info to ensure quality.

[silent thunder]

Really good question. 

 

I wrestle with this one some as well, but lean heavily in the whole food direction and here is why, (though this is only my instinctive supposition/opinion, nothing I have researched or studied in depth).

 

Take beta carotene as an example.  While it may indeed be beneficial to eyesight.  I am suspect that it carries the same effectiveness when consumed separate from the carrot and stripped away from the other components of a carrot in which it naturally generated.  Perhaps the efficacy/digestibility and usefulness is in the natural blend of the whole food and not in the isolation and condensation.

 

That and the strong point raised by Seatle185, that regulations in the supplement industry are non-existent and so the entire process doesn't lend itself well to my rather skeptical and non-trusting nature toward capitalist profit driven companies selling in a market with little or no oversight.

 

Then my flip side kicks in and I recall that many plant essences for medicine are mixed, synthesized and condensed heavily for increased effectiveness.  So perhaps some things work isolated this way and can be absorbed readily, while others aren't...   In the end, I keep trying things as they strike me, though I lean heavily in favor of whole foods taken in a balanced diet.  In the end, tuning into the body is the best tool in my kit.

 

edit:  I just learned how to spell the carotene in beta carotene. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by silent thunder

[dust]

After reading The Neurogenesis Diet and Lifestyle: Upgrade Your Brain, Upgrade Your Life  by Brant Cortright, I`ve started taking some extracts: wild blueberry, green tea, and the Longvida form of tumeric.  It`s just been a few weeks, but so far I haven`t felt any difference and I`m wondering if I should continue investing in the program.

 

Philosophically, I`m more of a whole foods guy.  It`s hard to believe that anybody can pack a cup of blueberry nutrition into one or two tiny capsules.  On the other hand, there`s no way I`d end up having that many blueberrys otherwise.  The blueberrys that are available to me here in Mexico aren`t wild and they aren`t organic.  They are, however, expensive.  I can see myself brewing a cup of green tea everyday, but I`m unlikely to brew five cups.  

 

Maybe these herbs are doing wonderful things for me and I just haven`t noticed?  Or they would if I gave them more time?  Or am I just throwing money away, or worse, actually hurting myself?

 

Open to advice if you`ve got some.

 

 

First off, why blueberries? What is it that they're supposed to be giving you in particular?

 

 

Second: it's pretty certain that a well-made supplement can pack way more nutrients than a bunch of any fruit. In theory we could easily get all RDI vitamins and minerals from supplements. But that would not be healthy. For one thing, we don't know for certain all the vitamins and minerals we need and those that are just helpful, or useless. Eating real food is obviously a time-tested way of getting what we need in pretty balanced quantities. Another thing is that whole plants also contain fibre, good for digestion, feeling full longer (so we don't eat too much), and prebiotic (forming healthy microbacteria in the gut). And, very obviously, whole foods contain protein, carbs, and fats, all of which are necessary for our health. I mean, we could 'supplement' all of these things, never eating any real food, but that would be wasteful of energy and money and would not be as satisfying and etc....

 

So this is a long way of stating the obvious: we eat food rather than just using supplements because a good mixture of foods contains most of what we need to be alive and healthy, and because we enjoy it.

 

 

 

However, thirdly, there are some things we don't (and sometimes can't) get enough of, even in a good diet... but it's not certain that what you as an individual are lacking is going to be made up for with blueberries and green tea. You might be lacking nothing, or any number of things, including vitamins A, B12, C, D, E, K; iron, magnesium, iodine; Omega-3 fats; etc.

 

B12: It's said these days that it's only vegans who don't get enough B12, but in the modern world it's rare in all natural sources. It comes from bacteria in water, soil, and the gut of animals, but most of our water is purified and things from the soil cleaned before eaten. Rabbits eat their own shit to get B12. Livestock these days don't get enough because their water and feed is as lacking in B12 as ours is, so most livestock are supplemented with it. Many 'vegan' foods (e.g. soy juice) are fortified with it. Same difference. Maybe best to supplement, even as a meat-eater.

 

Vitamin D: In Mexico, assuming you get outside enough and exposed to direct sunlight for a while every day, you're probably OK, but for many in darker climates it's been shown to be hard to get enough in the diet (unless one eats fatty fish with every meal).

 

I'd look into the nutrients commonly accepted as deficient among Americans and compare with your diet to see where you might be lacking. Because getting too much of a nutrient can be unhealthy, too (e.g. too much iron is not good; excess vitamin A in pregnancy can cause birth defects; etc).

 

 

 

 

Really good question. 

 

I wrestle with this one some as well, but lean heavily in the whole food direction and here is why, (though this is only my instinctive supposition/opinion, nothing I have researched or studied in depth).

 

Take beta carotene as an example.  While it may indeed be beneficial to eyesight.  I am suspect that it carries the same effectiveness when consumed separate from the carrot and stripped away from the other components of a carrot in which it naturally generated.  Perhaps the efficacy/digestibility and usefulness is in the natural blend of the whole food and not in the isolation and condensation.

 

Vitamin A (including beta-carotene) is necessary for eyesight and other things, but increasing consumption doesn't improve eyesight beyond a certain degree (and can be harmful in some cases). Basically, most people with access to a decent diet are not deficient and getting extra is a waste of time.

Edited March 28, 2017 by dust

[dust]

PS: sorry to state some really obvious things; it probably sounds bizarrely arrogant to say "We eat food because we enjoy it" as if you didn't know that... but I've come to believe that if one is making an effort to give advice it's better to get all the information out in a cohesive way, even if most of it is obvious...

[silent thunder]

"we eat food because we enjoy it"  this really resonates. 

 

Mindset and emotional climate while consuming and preparing food is paramount for me.

 

I will no longer eat, or prepare food for myself or others when I am experiencing emotional turbulence.

[MooNiNite]

That just happened to me recently. 

There was this big strong muscular guy making a chipotle burrito for me. And I told him to add more salsa or something, and he got really upset, claiming he did the right portion. I told him its fine, no problem. But when I went to eat, I soon felt sick.

 

Like all of his negative emotional energy went into my food. I think being big and strong he had more energy than normal. 

[silent thunder]

Yea, this is really key for me now.

 

I find this is where the origin of blessing our food before we consume it comes from...

Nullifying denigrative energies that occur in the process of the creation of the food, with gratitude, to increase benefit and maximize nutrition and enjoyment.

[liminal_luke]

I also like "we eat food because we enjoy it," and the importance of mindset.  Thank you, Dust, Silent Thunder.  I think that`s one of the big differences, for me, between taking an extract versus the real food.  There`s this good feeling I get eating blueberrys or sipping green tea that I don`t get from a pill.  In the end, I just don`t feel all that great about taking capsules of stuff, even if the ingredients really are wonderful.  Maybe it`s beneficial -- I`m not cutting them out yet -- but, if so, it`s beneficial in a second best kinda way.

[futuredaze]

I've had good experience with Lion's Mane mushroom.

 

The company I bought from:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DKZZFCE/ref=s9_acsd_al_bw_c_x_4_w

 

These improvements I've noticed, which are subtle, may be "just in my head" ... but isn't that the point?

[dust]

I'm kind of the opposite. I'll eat at any time, because eating makes me feel happy. I get hangry quite often. I don't comfort eat, binging when I'm sad -- I eat all the time, at any time, because it's one of my favourite things to do...!

 

Though from either perspective, yes, the point is essentially the same: food is something to be enjoyed.

 

 

 

Looking briefly at this neurogenesis diet stuff, it seems that you're looking to get more blueberries to increase flavonoids? Does the book explain why blueberry flavonoids (anthocyanidins) are preferable to any of the other flavonoids? Citrus, peanut, cocoa, parsley, and blueberries are all high in flavonoids, but nearly all plants contain them....

 

On the other hand, though I'm happy to see that it's plant foods being promoted in this diet, I must wonder how beneficial it is really.. isn't most of the evidence based on tests on rats?

Edited March 28, 2017 by dust

[liminal_luke]

 

Looking briefly at this neurogenesis diet stuff, it seems that you're looking to get more blueberries to increase flavonoids? Does the book explain why blueberry flavonoids (anthocyanidins) are preferable to any of the other flavonoids? Citrus, peanut, cocoa, parsley, and blueberries are all high in flavonoids, but nearly all plants contain them....

 

On the other hand, though I'm happy to see that it's plant foods being promoted in this diet, I must wonder how beneficial it is really.. isn't most of the evidence based on tests on rats?

 

I don`t remember the exact science about why blueberries are supposed to be good for the brain, but yes, I think it has to do with the flavonoids.  Here`s some information on the diet if anyone`s interested: http://www.consciouslifestylemag.com/neurogenesis-diet-supplements-increasing/. 

 

It`s not a vegetarian diet (he also recommends Omega 3 essential oils from fish oil) but the supplements I happen to have chosen are plants.

[Seatle185]

I wrestle with this one some as well, but lean heavily in the whole food direction and here is why, (though this is only my instinctive supposition/opinion, nothing I have researched or studied in depth).

 

Take beta carotene as an example. While it may indeed be beneficial to eyesight. I am suspect that it carries the same effectiveness when consumed separate from the carrot and stripped away from the other components of a carrot in which it naturally generated. Perhaps the efficacy/digestibility and usefulness is in the natural blend of the whole food and not in the isolation and condensation.

 

I very much agree. Many of the vitamin rich foods we eat have so many different properties and many of them work in a powerful synergy that is hard to beat.. one thing i always try to do if im taking a supplement is also eat a food that is rich with the vitamin im trying to assimilate so it may help with digestion/assimilation.

 

One thing i wonder is the energetic properties of extracts, would they have the same qi as a fresh fruit? Im not really sure. The absolute best way to eat a vegetable or fruit i think, is right off the tree, vine or from the ground. The plant itself is still in the process of photosynthesis creating energy, so i do notice it isnt comparable to a food that has been sitting on shelf for weeks getting old and starting to slowly break down. With the extracts we might not know how long they've been sitting on the shelf, but i would think a lot longer than fresh foods. Another thought is, in the store we can see,touch, smell a product and decide if it is good quality, we cant be 100 percent sure if the extracts were made of top quality.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Seatle185

[dust]

It`s not a vegetarian diet (he also recommends Omega 3 essential oils from fish oil) but the supplements I happen to have chosen are plants.

 

No, I realize that. And as I said, fish is a semi-decent source of vitamin D if one eats it. Better than most veggie options for that. It's just nice to see dietary advice promoting things that are actually healthy. Though I think it might be leaving out some options, for whatever reason.

[silent thunder]

And so much of the affectiveness of food comes from the soil.  Brix measurements will tell you the quality of the soil in which your produce was grown and its relative nutrition based on the amount of solids in the juice from the fruit/veg.

 

Heavily industrialized and overused soil, when there is not ample fallow time in rest and decay, develops a decreasing mineral content and a low brix value, which translates to less nutritional value and decreased flavor in the produce grown there. 

 

Vegetables grown in high brix soil contain more minerals and nutrition have much more flavor and are also naturally pest resistant.  Turns out the natural predation system of nature has co-developed so that when soil becomes depleted, insects are drawn more heavily to plants grown in this soil and after depleting them through predation, give the soil there a chance to recoup.

 

High brix value is one of the markers of a good strong healthy organic garden. 

 

Based on this conversation, I decided to purchase a refractomer in order to test brix value so I'll soon be able to test my produce to see where the best sources are...  I'll share what I find. 

 

Here is a basic link with some organic gardening tips and a brix value scale for some common produce.

http://www.healthy-vegetable-gardening.com/brix-scale.html