Karma in relationships

[Wuwei88]

Hi all,

 

I've wondered about this and has come to mind lately.

 

Why is it that the person who's hurt you in relationship seems like there life is doing just fine, and the person they've hurt is struggling?

 

This happens to many. Is it really karma at work here? Or is it just the cold hearted people just don't feel their pain, hence, they keep walking like nothing is wrong?

[EmeraldHead]

When I think of karma in relantionship I think of people being in synch, not in opposite directions, that's not what karma is, and that sounds more like a curse than karma. 

 

And the example you gave, sounds like life not karma, to me.

[roger]

Hi all,

 

I've wondered about this and has come to mind lately.

 

Why is it that the person who's hurt you in relationship seems like there life is doing just fine, and the person they've hurt is struggling?

 

This happens to many. Is it really karma at work here? Or is it just the cold hearted people just don't feel their pain, hence, they keep walking like nothing is wrong?

 

There might be great good in the suffering of the hurt person. They may be growing or in some way benefitting from their pain.

 

The one who hurt the other might be even more "separate" and lost than they were before the attack.

 

We don't see everything. We only see the surface usually.

 

Trust that there's a deeper spiritual reality in which there really IS justice and perfection.

[C T]

Suffering and karma are bound to one who clings to notions of a truly existent self. Loosen these notions to bring forth relief from all suffering and karma. 

[mvingon]

Eh, idk, sometimes stuff just happens. But I have observed that yes, some people have less conscience than others, some ignore conscience, and some are just darned good at faking (pretend).

[C T]

Eh, idk, sometimes stuff just happens. But I have observed that yes, some people have less conscience than others, some ignore conscience, and some are just darned good at faking (pretend).

it can be frustrating to try and analyse others' behaviour, but very rewarding when we use that energy to keep ours on a true course. This is easily done when we cultivate the practice of mindful living based on simple attention to our actions, speech and mental preoccupations. 

[thelerner]

I don't know about 'cosmic' karma, but as an individual we gain maturity and lower the action/reaction waves of thought by properly mourning, then moving on. 

 

I don't know if the individual doing the break up is cold hearted or not, but snapping back, means karma controls them less.  To (overly) cling to the past is the stuff of karmic chains. 

[Wuwei88]

[mvingon]

it can be frustrating to try and analyse others' behaviour, but very rewarding when we use that energy to keep ours on a true course. This is easily done when we cultivate the practice of mindful living based on simple attention to our actions, speech and mental preoccupations.

 

Amen!

[Gyon]

I can understand the frustration when you are on the "hurt" end. but what I usually think in these cases:

-we don't know exactly how they feel or things happen in their life so our perception is just that. a perception

-They may be getting it hard in other part of their lives, certainly not something they will share. this may happen long after the person is hurt, as with everything this is also in balance, what goes, comes back. maybe not straight after ,but always does.

-the "hurt" part come from within because lets say a break up says rejection to the person or says something about the person that we don't want to face and it hurts. but we make it an external thing and say: it was him/her who hurt us. think about what it says about you instead and why it hurts. and comfort yourself.

-we get too entangled with the feeling. I am able to set it aside, I know its there but refuse to deal with it. and as with everything, nothing is static, so it will pass unless you cling to it.

 

Really all I am trying to say is disregard what happens to the other person, that is his/her business, don't mingle with their ming. karma will pay back eventually. you need to make sure to understand what the hurt says about you, accept but don't engage with the feeling and be busy until it passes.

[doc benway]

Hi all,

 

I've wondered about this and has come to mind lately.

 

Why is it that the person who's hurt you in relationship seems like there life is doing just fine, and the person they've hurt is struggling?

 

This happens to many. Is it really karma at work here? Or is it just the cold hearted people just don't feel their pain, hence, they keep walking like nothing is wrong?

 

A few observations about karma form my limited perspective.

 

As has been alluded to already, we are generally focused on our own experience and perspective, what other perspective could we possibly have? We need to be aware of this limitation. The depth of our insight into the other's experience, perspective, motivation, and intention is very limited. The depth of insight into our own perspective and intention is equally limited unless we observe and study ourselves over time. It's very instructive when others share with us their perspective of us, especially when it is at odds with our assumptions and expectations. Their image of us is often more accurate than our own and is a precious gift.

 

CT's advice is critically important because the only was we will ever cultivate a deeper understanding of others is through a deeper understanding of ourselves. One way to do that is to carefully observe ourselves through mindfulness. Another way is to carefully observe ourselves through the perspective of others, hence the value of relationship in our spiritual practice. 

 

Karma literally means action or deed. There is a great deal of meaning imputed onto this by different traditions and individuals. A direct insight into karma is what is ultimately important for understanding. This can come from that very observation mentioned above. Observe yourself, others, and how that relationship works. Observe the environment, plants, animals, natural forces, and how they interact. Every being, every action, even every thought, interacts with everything it touches. That interlocking web of connection spreads out from the center - me - to everything that is, was, and will be. This connection is infinitely complex and infinitely subtle, but it is always there, whether obvious or hidden.

 

The more patient and devoted I am to being an active observer, the more I appreciate the power of this simple concept of karma. Namely, each and every action I take has an impact which interacts with everything around me. My choice of actions has an impact on the consequences. Combine this with the decentralization of the effect, that is - every living creature is the center of their own web of karma and all of these spheres of intent overlap and interact in an unimaginably complex dance. This is why I can't always see a direct and predictable cause and effect, the level of complexity far exceeds my ability to understand and negates the usefulness of judgement.

 

Sorry to be so wordy but it's fun to share sometimes.

[Jeff]

A few observations about karma form my limited perspective.

 

As has been alluded to already, we are generally focused on our own experience and perspective, what other perspective could we possibly have? We need to be aware of this limitation. The depth of our insight into the other's experience, perspective, motivation, and intention is very limited. The depth of insight into our own perspective and intention is equally limited unless we observe and study ourselves over time. It's very instructive when others share with us their perspective of us, especially when it is at odds with our assumptions and expectations. Their image of us is often more accurate than our own and is a precious gift.

 

CT's advice is critically important because the only was we will ever cultivate a deeper understanding of others is through a deeper understanding of ourselves. One way to do that is to carefully observe ourselves through mindfulness. Another way is to carefully observe ourselves through the perspective of others, hence the value of relationship in our spiritual practice. 

 

Karma literally means action or deed. There is a great deal of meaning imputed onto this by different traditions and individuals. A direct insight into karma is what is ultimately important for understanding. This can come from that very observation mentioned above. Observe yourself, others, and how that relationship works. Observe the environment, plants, animals, natural forces, and how they interact. Every being, every action, even every thought, interacts with everything it touches. That interlocking web of connection spreads out from the center - me - to everything that is, was, and will be. This connection is infinitely complex and infinitely subtle, but it is always there, whether obvious or hidden.

 

The more patient and devoted I am to being an active observer, the more I appreciate the power of this simple concept of karma. Namely, each and every action I take has an impact which interacts with everything around me. My choice of actions has an impact on the consequences. Combine this with the decentralization of the effect, that is - every living creature is the center of their own web of karma and all of these spheres of intent overlap and interact in an unimaginably complex dance. This is why I can't always see a direct and predictable cause and effect, the level of complexity far exceeds my ability to understand and negates the usefulness of judgement.

 

Sorry to be so wordy but it's fun to share sometimes.

 

 

In Pali, karma does means action, but in many other traditions, karma is driven by intent that leads to the action.  As buddha stated...

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

 

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

 

The act itself does not create the karma, it is the intention (or desire/fear/attachment) behind the act that creates and drives the karma.

[C T]

In Pali, karma does means action, but in many other traditions, karma is driven by intent that leads to the action.  As buddha stated...

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

 

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

 

The act itself does not create the karma, it is the intention (or desire/fear/attachment) behind the act that creates and drives the karma.

 

Actions perpetuate a separate set of karmic propensities which in turn determines future intentions, so it is inaccurate to say that actions do not create karma. The above quote means that intention is that which compels karma to arise; it doesn't mean that actions have no karmic propulsion because they do - they drive into existence the next set of intentions based on previous actions, ad infinitum almost. It is intention which creates karma, but actions fuel the continuation. 

[Jeff]

Actions perpetuate a separate set of karmic propensities which in turn determines future intentions, so it is inaccurate to say that actions do not create karma. The above quote means that intention is that which compels karma to arise; it doesn't mean that actions have no karmic propulsion because they do - they drive into existence the next set of intentions based on previous actions, ad infinitum almost. It is intention which creates karma, but actions fuel the continuation. 

 

 

Not quite sure what you are saying that I said is inaccurate?

 

My point is that the "intent" drives the karma, not the act itself. As an example, if you kill someone, your karma is determined by the intent behind the killing.  Hence, the karma of killing as a soldier in self defense in a war is different than the karma from murdering someone in a rage.  But, in both cases there was an "act of killing" and someone is dead.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Jeff

[Jeff]

Not everyone would class Karma like that. Some would say that there is a set karma for killing, regardless of intent. There is also a set karma for intent. These things can be felt.

 

 

So when a tiger kills a deer to eat, it creates karma?  Is that not just the natural flow of the Dao and hence no karma.

[C T]

Not quite sure what you are saying that I said is inaccurate?

 

My point is that the "intent" drives the karma, not the act itself. As an example, if you kill someone, your karma is determined by the intent behind the killing.  Hence, the karma of killing as a soldier in self defense in a war is different than the karma from murdering someone in a rage.  But, in both cases someone is dead.

You said "The act itself does not create karma" - this is inaccurate. 

 

While the underlying motive/s for an action is what drives an act, the act itself is not free of karma unless of course one possesses omniscience equivalent to that of a buddha. 

[Jeff]

You said "The act itself does not create karma" - this is inaccurate. 

 

While the underlying motive/s for an action is what drives an act, the act itself is not free of karma unless of course one possesses omniscience equivalent to that of a buddha. 

 

 

If you believe that, then how about this as example...

 

If you come home from work and accidentally trip over your dog and hurt it, is there karma attached to it?

 

As compared to coming home from work mad and purposely kick your dog and hurt it?

 

Either way the act is the same, are you saying that the karma is the same...

[C T]

So when a tiger kills a deer to eat, it creates karma?  Is that not just the natural flow of the Dao and hence no karma.

Yes, it creates the karma of a temporary satiation of hunger, which is impermanent, and will, after a time, drive the tiger to hunt and feed again. Same with the habitual tendencies of humans - the difference is that humans have the good fortune to redress these tendencies if they so choose after viewing them in the correct way, whilst animals lack this quality. But lacking in this does not imply freedom from karma. The scale for weighing and meting out effects (which create future causes and vice versa) may be different for each class of being, but none within the 6 realms escape the workings of karma. Hence why it is said that karma is never biased. 

 

The flow of Dao, i think, denotes the nature of the various propensities fundamentally existing in both tigers and deers, and all other beings, and not indicative of anything else in this particular instance. There is nothing in nature which is separated from this flow, and yet it is karma which allows the drift to continue. Humans however are the only class of beings that have the potential to alter the patterns of the drift. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by C T

[C T]

If you believe that, then how about this as example...

 

If you come home from work and accidentally trip over your dog and hurt it, is there karma attached to it?

 

As compared to coming home from work mad and purposely kick your dog and hurt it?

 

Either way the act is the same, are you saying that the karma is the same...

 

In this example, i dont share your view that both acts are the same, and yet, yes, both are inadvertently not free of karma, but thru each different action, future karma of related intentions can be altered.

 

If we recognise the unique unfolding of each event with mindful attention, in the previous scene, which might repeat at some future point, we can heighten awareness to avoid accidentally hurting the dog once again, and in the latter scene, which might also repeat at some future point, we can heighten awareness to avoid or at least lessen the identification to a self that gets mad after a stressful work day, both of which will accentuate the karma of right action. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by C T

[Jeff]

In this example, i dont share your view that both acts are the same, and yet, yes, both are inadvertently not free of karma, but thru each different action, future karma of related intentions can be altered.

 

If we recognise the unique unfolding of each event with mindful attention, in the previous scene, which might repeat at some future point, we can heighten awareness to avoid accidentally hurting the dog once again, and in the latter scene, which might also repeat at some future point, we can heighten awareness to avoid or at least lessen the identification to a self that gets mad after a stressful work day, both of which will accentuate the karma of right action. 

 

 

The physical act in both cases was the same kicking of the dog.  One on purpose and the other accidentally.  As stated earlier (which you seem to agree with) is that the karma difference is based upon the intent behind the act.

 

A little more from the Buddha on how intent behind the act is what counts.  From the Dhammapada 1st verse...

 

The Story of Thera Cakkhupala

 

While residing at the Jetavana monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha uttered Verse (1) of this book, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind thera.

 

On one occasion, Thera Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at the Jetavana monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in meditation, the thera accidentally stepped on some insects. In the morning, some bhikkhus visiting the thera found the dead insects. They thought ill of the thera and reported the matter to the Buddha. The Buddha asked them whether they had seen the thera killing the insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just as you had not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those living insects. Besides, as the thera had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing and so was quite innocent."

 

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=001

Edited March 31, 2017 by Jeff

[C T]

The physical act in both cases was the same kicking of the dog.  One on purpose and the other accidentally.  As stated earlier (which you seem to agree with) is that the karma difference is based upon the intent behind the act.

The question you posed was whether there is karma attached in accidentally kicking one's dog. Imo, there is, to a greater or lesser degree, regardless of intention.

[Jeff]

Yes, it creates the karma of a temporary satiation of hunger, which is impermanent, and will, after a time, drive the tiger to hunt and feed again. Same with the habitual tendencies of humans - the difference is that humans have the good fortune to redress these tendencies if they so choose after viewing them in the correct way, whilst animals lack this quality. But lacking in this does not imply freedom from karma. The scale for weighing and meting out effects (which create future causes and vice versa) may be different for each class of being, but none within the 6 realms escape the workings of karma. Hence why it is said that karma is never biased. 

 

The flow of Dao, i think, denotes the nature of the various propensities fundamentally existing in both tigers and deers, and all other beings, and not indicative of anything else in this particular instance. There is nothing in nature which is separated from this flow, and yet it is karma which allows the drift to continue. Humans however are the only class of beings that have the potential to alter the patterns of the drift. 

 

 

Interesting concept.  So then following your logic...

 

A bird that eats a bug creates karma for itself in the act?  Or, a flower that grows tall in the sun and blocks the light so it kills a smaller plant  also create karma?

[Jeff]

It's an exchange.

 

Both the bird and the bug have good and bad karma. The violence of the transaction is such that the bird acquires bad karma from eating the bug but the bug also acquires good karma from its being victimized.

 

This is a correlate to yin and yang theory. There is no gain without a loss. To gain good karma, you must also lose bad karma. To gain bad karma, you must also lose good karma.

 

 

Guess we may just disagree.  From the TTC...

 

SIXTY-EIGHT

A good soldier is not violent.

A good fighter is not angry.

A good winner is not vengeful.

A good employer is humble.

This is known as the Virtue of not striving.

This is known as the ability to deal with people.

This since ancient times has been known as the ultimate unity with heaven.

 

It is the "intent" (desires, fears) that screws up that not striving and going with the Dao.

[C T]

Interesting concept.  So then following your logic...

 

A bird that eats a bug creates karma for itself in the act?  Or, a flower that grows tall in the sun and blocks the light so it kills a smaller plant  also create karma?

The processes which allow both these examples to occur are none other than the propensities of karma. 

[Jeff]

The processes which allow both these examples to occur are none other than the propensities of karma. 

 

 

Is that because all action (no matter what) has karma? Or could a buddha create a karma-less act?

 

Also, what about my dhammapada quote earlier? Does that not say "no intent to kill", so no problem? Similar to my TTC 68 verse?