Karma in relationships

[Jeff]

I guess so.

 

As a side note, good karma has been related to Virtue (in the general sense) not any single form Virtue.

 

 

So no theoretical possibility of a karma-less act?  A sage, immortal, or buddha realizing the "empty nature" or "primal virtue" of karma and hence not bound by it?

[liminal_luke]

We want, at times, to see others punished for their misdeeds.  Sometimes the punishment happens, often it doesn`t.  There`s nothing we can do in either case, unless of course we`re willing to become the instrument of that punishment...a course of action that only further entangles us in the wrong we ostensibly wish to extricate ourselves from.

 

What we can do is notice ourselves wanting bad things for others.  There is great power in such noticing.  

[AussieTrees]

If you believe that, then how about this as example...

 

If you come home from work and accidentally trip over your dog and hurt it, is there karma attached to it?

 

As compared to coming home from work mad and purposely kick your dog and hurt it?

 

Either way the act is the same, are you saying that the karma is the same...

Karma value

 

Eg1.You return home from work and accidentally trip over your dog,similar to kicking your dog,but without intent,but may still have negative karma value,or none at all.

Eg2.You return home from work and purposely kick the dog and hurt it?

 

Displacement is an unconscious defence mechanism that helps us protect our ego,we have probably all used at times,as with eg2.

So you are at work,the boss is pushing for more production,he yells,he blames,maybe threatens with losing your job.

Maybe some offence taken,you want to lash out verbally or even have thoughts of punching the boss.

Subconsciously you know you can't do that and keep your job.

You arrive home,angry,after mulling over day at work,the first thing your dog greets you faithfully,maybe the dog is under your feet.

All that pent up anger is now displaceed onto the dog with a swift kick.

 

Whatever the karma value,personal insight into our behaviours creates positive or neutral karma.

[Jeff]

Not as far as I'm concerned.

 

A person can get to a point where their virtue and good karma are plentiful enough to mitigate many of the potential forms of repercussion. But I think karma applies to everyone.

So in your view, no possible escape, just building up a big piggy bank (of good karma) for the tough times? Then what do you define enlightenment as?

[C T]

Is that because all action (no matter what) has karma? Or could a buddha create a karma-less act?

 

Also, what about my dhammapada quote earlier? Does that not say "no intent to kill", so no problem? Similar to my TTC 68 verse?

In the quote above, it clearly stated Cakkhupala was an arhat. I do not yet have the insight to comment on that level. 

Its obvious that we are here discussing karma prior to enlightenment, isn't that right? 

[Jeff]

In the quote above, it clearly stated Cakkhupala was an arhat. I do not yet have the insight to comment on that level. 

Its obvious that we are here discussing karma prior to enlightenment, isn't that right?

 

To me what we are discussing is the nature of karma and how it relates or is dependent upon intent. My point is that there can be acts that do not create karma, because there is no attachment/aversion/fear/issues embedded in the intent. Such an act is done as described by the TTC verse (primal virtue) and also the nature of an arhat.

 

It is not the act itself, but all of the "junk" attached to it that creates or drives the karma.

 

Or, a Buddha (or immortal type) is beyond/transcends karma and can still "act".

[AussieTrees]

In the quote above, it clearly stated Cakkhupala was an arhat. I do not yet have the insight to comment on that level. 

Its obvious that we are here discussing karma prior to enlightenment, isn't that right?

 

What is karma?,is the a ledger kept somewhere?,what are the limits of karma?

Is it your feeling good about whatever?

Is it feeling bad about whatever?

Mostly there is no thought of karma,we do and act as we must.

[Brian]

Interesting concept. So then following your logic...

 

A bird that eats a bug creates karma for itself in the act? Or, a flower that grows tall in the sun and blocks the light so it kills a smaller plant also create karma?

In Native American tradition, one would apologise to the deer one killed (as an example) and ask for its forgiveness, and then try to use every bit of the animal in some fashion out of respect for the animal's spirit. Not a karmic system but one with respect for life and for nature (of which humanity is part).

 

I think "harm" is A Bad Thing but not all harm is the same. Accidentally running over someone with your car is worse than intentionally shooting an intruder who is trying to rape your daughter but not as bad as shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die.

 

 

(Hat-tip to the Man in Black).

[C T]

What is karma?,is the a ledger kept somewhere?,what are the limits of karma?

Is it your feeling good about whatever?

Is it feeling bad about whatever?

Mostly there is no thought of karma,we do and act as we must.

With respect to understanding what karma is from the Buddhist pov, these two quotes explain it quite succinctly. Both these quotes are from two of the most learned monks in the Theravadin tradition: 

 

Karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. ~ Ven. Thanissaro Bikhu

 

 

Instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment. Who you are - what you come from - is nowhere near as important as the mind's motives for what it is doing right now. Even though the past may account for many of the inequalities we see in life, our measure as human beings is not the hand we've been dealt, for that hand can change at any moment. We take our own measure by how well we play the hand we've got. ~ Ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula

[doc benway]

In Pali, karma does means action, but in many other traditions, karma is driven by intent that leads to the action.  As buddha stated...

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

 

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

 

The act itself does not create the karma, it is the intention (or desire/fear/attachment) behind the act that creates and drives the karma.

 

I disagree, it's my opinion and observation that both intent and the act itself contribute to karma.

An unintentional act may have consequences.

An intention never acted upon may not, or at least not the same as if the act was carried out.

[AussieTrees]

I disagree, it's my opinion and observation that both intent and the act itself contribute to karma.

An unintentional act may have consequences.

An intention never acted upon may not, or at least not the same as if the act was carried out.

EG

The surgeon operates and saves the life of the gunshot victim.

Two weeks later,the same now partially recovered gunshot victim,takes revenge killing the person responsible for his wounds,to emphasise his revenge he also kills the whole family of this person.

 

Does the surgeon having saved this man now murderer,develope karma for his efforts?

An unintentional act may have consequences.An intentional act may have unexpected consequences.

 

Things happen all day long,some of it expected,some of it unexpected,karma happens,the future plays out with decisions made in the present after consideration of the past,then we ponder the differences of weighted karma,then everything happens just as it does.mmm

[Jeff]

I disagree, it's my opinion and observation that both intent and the act itself contribute to karma.

An unintentional act may have consequences.

An intention never acted upon may not, or at least not the same as if the act was carried out.

Thanks. Then I assume that you also disagree with the Dhammapada quote I posted earlier? That the blind man did actually create some bad karma by stepping on the ants?

[C T]

Thanks. Then I assume that you also disagree with the Dhammapada quote I posted earlier? That the blind man did actually create some bad karma by stepping on the ants?

In actual Buddhist understanding, you will find that there is no mention of good and bad karma. This is a Western view, and one that is lacking in accuracy.

 

The Buddhist view does not regard predeterminism as an acceptable guiding principle in the understanding of karma. Karma does not confer merit nor punish in the absence of such. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by C T

[Jeff]

In actual Buddhist understanding, you will find that there is no mention of good and bad karma. This is a Western view, and one that is lacking in accuracy.

 

The Buddhist view does not regard predeterminism as an acceptable guiding principle in the understanding of karma. Karma does not confer merit nor punish in the absence of such.

 

In the context of my post, I meant it as "bad" as shorthand relative to not following the correct dharma by killing something. Since there are "rules" that one is supposed to follow in Buddhism, violating the rules was seen as "bad" by the other monks, so they reported him to Buddha. Also, a few words from Buddha on the counter point. From the dhammapada...

 

Whoever follows impure thoughts

Suffers in this world and the next.

In both worlds he suffers

And how greatly

When he sees the wrong he has done.

But whoever follows the dharma Is joyful here and joyful there.

In both worlds he rejoices

And how greatly

When he sees the good he has done.

For great is the harvest in this world,

And greater still in the next.

[Spotless]

Karma is neither good nor bad - intrinsically it is "stickiness" - it is the welding of propensity and inertia. (It - on a side note - has nothing to do with the concept of Sin and the accumulation of or disposal of points that will be recorded and dealt with). It is simply a way of conveying the "illusion" and our clinging to it by expressing the effect of inertia. The law of exercising inertias which continues to excite sympathetic inertias and which in turn excite the originating inertias. How we jail ourselves, fortify the jailing and continue in automated sleep.

 

Yin Yang has nothing to do with the idea that in order to gain good karma you must lose bad karma - religion confuses it like that.

 

Karma is conveying the process of adhesion in our illusion - how we become attached, stay attached and how we might progress to less attached and non-attached. Yin Yang illustrates the heat in transmutation as what is Yin is only yin in relation to yang as yang to yin. If we lop off the northern half of a globe do we now have only the southern half? Or is not the equator now the north?

 

There is not a clean break from Yin to Yang and Yang to Yin - look at it as Mother and Father - one is not good and the other bad - is "sending" good and "receiving" bad? Is "+" good and "-" bad?

 

The general notion that there is only so much to go around - that we can only have more good if we have less evil - negates the transformative and leaves only the material - such a sad but clear picture of current religion and general society.

 

"Good" karma can be "Bad" karma - it has no morales - either may be softening and enlightening or hardening and encasing - action and non-action have their place with no valuation in morales. What is taken to be "Good" karma is those frequencies that excite inertias that liberate and dissolve attachment (skillful means) - this is clarity in this regard.

 

When one has moved beyond attachment one is said to be free of Karma - not as a reward or because they are in a higher realm where karma has been disposed of, or some god realm where all has been forgiven - but because one has attained non-inertia. One can have / is positionless position - wholeness, stillness, nothingness.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Spotless

[AussieTrees]

Spotless

 

When one has moved beyond attachment one is said to be free of Karma - not as a reward or because they are in a higher realm where karma has been disposed of, or some god realm where all has been forgiven - but because one has attained non-inertia. One can have / is positionless position - wholeness, stillness, nothingness.

 

Karma is neither good nor bad - intrinsically it is "stickiness" - it is the welding of propensity and inertia. (It - on a side note - has nothing to do with the concept of Sin and the accumulation of or disposal of points that will be recorded and dealt with). It is simply a way of conveying the "illusion" and our clinging to it by expressing the effect of inertia. The law of exercising inertias which continues to excite sympathetic inertias and which in turn excite the originating inertias. How we jail ourselves, fortify the jailing and continue in automated sleep.

Yin Yang has nothing to do with the idea that in order to gain good karma you must lose bad karma - religion confuses it like that.

Karma is conveying the process of adhesion in our illusion - how we become attached, stay attached and how we might progress to less attached and non-attached. Yin Yang illustrates the heat in transmutation as what is Yin is only yin in relation to yang as yang to yin. If we lop off the northern half of a globe do we now have only the southern half? Or is not the equator now the north?

There is not a clean break from Yin to Yang and Yang to Yin - look at it as Mother and Father - one is not good and the other bad - is "sending" good and "receiving" bad? Is "+" good and "-" bad?

The general notion that there is only so much to go around - that we can only have more good if we have less evil - negates the transformative and leaves only the material - such a sad but clear picture of current religion and general society.

"Good" karma can be "Bad" karma - it has no morales - either may be softening and enlightening or hardening and encasing - action and non-action have their place with no valuation in morales. What is taken to be "Good" karma is those frequencies that excite inertias that liberate and dissolve attachment (skillful means) - this is clarity in this regard.

When one has moved beyond attachment one is said to be free of Karma - not as a reward or because they are in a higher realm where karma has been disposed of, or some god realm where all has been forgiven - but because one has attained non-inertia. One can have / is positionless position - wholeness, stillness, nothingness.

Thanks Spotless.

[ganjaboy]

The initial post sounds a lot like the age-old  "why do bad things happen to good people?" question. Here's my take on it. 

 

I've had periods in life where it seemed like everyone was getting what I wasn't or what I thought would make me happy. As an example when I was younger I saw young people having sex all the time and I felt like I was missing out, I was a very late starter with women and didn't even start gettting into any of that until around 21-22. At 22 I lost my virginity in casual sex, with a girl who ended up being a friend with benefits for a couple months. It was far less detrimental or damaging than it could have been because we were clear on what we wanted and did our best to harbor kindness, sensitivity and sensuality with each other. I then went on to have a couple more casual encounters which were not bad but slightly less wholesome.

 

I think whether you think you have "karma" from something is irrelevant, the fact is it's there. In these cases I not only received karma, it made it clear to me that what I thought I was missing out on, the physical intimacy, alone is an illusion of happiness. You may see others seeming like they have it all but you rarely see the other side, the anger and unhappiness and loss when you lose that thing you are attached to. You don't get something for nothing. I say that a lot because it is so true.

 

I'm luckily to be in a relationship now that has a very spiritual side as well as physical and the karma between us I hope is going to help us both have higher rebirths in coming lifetimes. The difference between humans and animals is the capacity to be more enlightened. So if you have an enlightened relationship it will serve more to that end, and if not, likewise. Humility between partners goes a long, long way.

 

Unlike sex, money, or material possessions, that effort to foster positivity energy is something that, unlike these other things, is eternal.

Edited April 2, 2017 by ganjaboy

[Spotless]

Hi all,

I've wondered about this and has come to mind lately.

Why is it that the person who's hurt you in relationship seems like there life is doing just fine, and the person they've hurt is struggling?

This happens to many. Is it really karma at work here? Or is it just the cold hearted people just don't feel their pain, hence, they keep walking like nothing is wrong?

The frequencies that abound in the make-up of ones illusion (karma) are primarily a summary of resistances / fear being worked on/through. The resistance attracts the very thing it resists: like a magnetic pole attracting its opposite. It also can put a shell around what you resist making later access to what you have resisted in the past less accessible to you when you would gladly have it.

 

The complexity of attractions is immense - the reasons for what is described above are many. But we can look at some possibilities in the broadest sense and please do not take them personally.

 

A person attracting being "walked on" by others may in fact be in resistance to "taking charge" of ones life - so in a sense one is an "available game board" for those that like to take charge - and when they tire of playing you they move on. For them the activity / interchange may be boring, satisfactory for a time or painful in that they are aware of the person they are playing and the predicament they are in - but they are not in "heal the victim" mode and so move on - possibly careful not to engage that type of frequency/scenario/person again because it is too painful to watch.

 

The person being "walked on" may be dealing with energetic levels that fluxuate considerably - a mate may be attracted for a time but move on because what they were attracted to is simply only available now and then - and for a great deal of the rest of the time they are hard to be around as they quagmire or regroup or refresh or sleep.

 

The person walking over the other may have all sorts of commitment resistance and self image platitudes.

 

In every scenario both parties are "wearing out" some of the frequencies of Karma that they are working through and developing "new" ones - some things they use to resist they no longer resist - some things they used to like they may now resist. And some vibrations they had never entertained before may now be available.

 

In growing relationships resistances are laid to rest or held at bay - discovery unfolds. This may be ever enduring and of course it may end in any number of ways.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Past life "karma" with another may be very real - it is often commitment based - with very real bonds and spiritual agreements from previous lives. In the aftermath of the re-invigorating space between lives, the Karma (frequencies of resistance and fear) changes in great release and with new added subtlety. But friends do rebirth with friends and will meet at various times though previously separated by great distances. "Enemies" will often meet as well.

 

Most bonds are sympathetic and biologically / race / DNA compatible.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Spotless

[Kara_mia]

Past life "karma" with another may be very real - it is often commitment based - with very real bonds and spiritual agreements from previous lives. In the aftermath of the re-invigorating space between lives, the Karma (frequencies of resistance and fear) changes in great release and with new added subtlety. But friends do rebirth with friends and will meet at various times though previously separated by great distances. "Enemies" will often meet as well.

 

Most bonds are sympathetic and biologically / race / DNA compatible.

 

Wow, thanks a lot for your valuable insight! I have come to the same conclusion re bonds and their compatibility. Moreover, I believe that phobic fears and health problems that we suffer from are also quite often caused by karma.

I have a phobic fear of mice and rats that I inherited from my mother's family. Its a real pain - such paralyzing fear of any mice and rats, even the dead one, even the picture of it. About 3 years ago I was told by a knowing person that it is karmic thing that came through my mother's lineage.

[centertime]

Wow, thanks a lot for your valuable insight! I have come to the same conclusion re bonds and their compatibility. Moreover, I believe that phobic fears and health problems that we suffer from are also quite often caused by karma.

I have a phobic fear of mice and rats that I inherited from my mother's family. Its a real pain - such paralyzing fear of any mice and rats, even the dead one, even the picture of it. About 3 years ago I was told by a knowing person that it is karmic thing that came through my mother's lineage.

My guess would be.. you may have a bad experience with mice and rats from past lives.

or your are afraid of them as an instinct which you have.

[Spotless]

Wow, thanks a lot for your valuable insight! I have come to the same conclusion re bonds and their compatibility. Moreover, I believe that phobic fears and health problems that we suffer from are also quite often caused by karma.

I have a phobic fear of mice and rats that I inherited from my mother's family. Its a real pain - such paralyzing fear of any mice and rats, even the dead one, even the picture of it. About 3 years ago I was told by a knowing person that it is karmic thing that came through my mother's lineage.

This is an interesting topic and not easily verified (depending on what is consider verification). We do carry in us instinctual traits which can include fears, racial pecking order, pack animal traits and many other very clear but often very obscured propensities.

Many things thought to be cultural in origin are often not - a great deal of racism is instinctual and a very old base ancient carryover.

 

Male / female relations are clearly affected by hormonal levels and upbringing - but they are also affected by ancient base instinctual traits specific to the lineage of the biological body. It is often not hard to overcome certain ancient leanings but in many cases it is far stronger than current science knows and it is completely politically incorrect.

 

Such subtle things as pecking order within a set of activities - the ancient animal side may give the female the wider swath in some activities and the male a wider swath in others. So in the present day male as an example - he might be quite progressive from the standpoint of having his wife or girlfriend moving about doing all sorts of things with no concern / fear for her safety and intelligence/instinctual prowess - but in certain things he is completely dominate and if she is from the same basic ancient lineage - she my be completely at ease with this arrangement. She may well be fully dominant in most of their affairs and he is fine with that as well.

 

In the above example it is very hard to ferret out what is conditioning and more ancient instinctive propensity but it can more clearly be seen in where for some unknown clarity - certain Very precise boundaries exist - that seem to defy time and culture.

[Spotless]

Some look at what body we have and predicament as being the result of karmic punishment or reward. This is not the case.

We choose our body and predicament - our choices are limited by our complexity and openness - basically the spectrum in which we can thrive according to our karma (general frequencies of resistance which we are working through /in) and the general pool of possibilities and overall mix with others involved.

 

Often it is with reoccurring friends though sometimes a considerable change is decided upon.

 

The decision is with the help of advisors / guides / trusted friends. Support during foreseeable difficulties is arranged and guides are reassured and many subtle agreements and assurances (at least in intent) are procured.

 

Some incarnations are heavily controlled because of certain propensities that will not be tolerated - sometimes it is well known before hand that very early death will take place or that certain painful experiences are being agreed upon.

[centertime]

This is an interesting topic and not easily verified (depending on what is consider verification). We do carry in us instinctual traits which can include fears, racial pecking order, pack animal traits and many other very clear but often very obscured propensities.

Many things thought to be cultural in origin are often not - a great deal of racism is instinctual and a very old base ancient carryover.

 

Male / female relations are clearly affected by hormonal levels and upbringing - but they are also affected by ancient base instinctual traits specific to the lineage of the biological body. It is often not hard to overcome certain ancient leanings but in many cases it is far stronger than current science knows and it is completely politically incorrect.

 

Such subtle things as pecking order within a set of activities - the ancient animal side may give the female the wider swath in some activities and the male a wider swath in others. So in the present day male as an example - he might be quite progressive from the standpoint of having his wife or girlfriend moving about doing all sorts of things with no concern / fear for her safety and intelligence/instinctual prowess - but in certain things he is completely dominate and if she is from the same basic ancient lineage - she my be completely at ease with this arrangement. She may well be fully dominant in most of their affairs and he is fine with that as well.

 

In the above example it is very hard to ferret out what is conditioning and more ancient instinctive propensity but it can more clearly be seen in where for some unknown clarity - certain Very precise boundaries exist - that seem to defy time and culture.

So do you believe the body has its reincarnate history and the soul has its own as well?

[Wuwei88]

Edited April 3, 2017 by Wuwei88