Tests and Trials

[thelerner]

One thing I liked about the martial arts is that was the occassional testing. There was a list of skills or techniques and you had to perform them to pass. I suppose if we had a steady meditation teacher there might be some sort of bench marks occassionally. But many of us don't have that.

 

What kind of tests, benchmarks or trials make sense?

 

Off the top of my head I can think of:

 

Sit down, time yourself, Count 200 breaths. Shoot for at least an hour and half to equal 30 second breath cycle.

 

All night sitting.

 

Two hour standing- 2 hours standing hugging a tree position.

 

Going outside at sunrise, finding a proper spot and staying there til sunset.

 

Taking a needle (sterilized?) and poking it through the bit of webbing between thumb and pointer finger.

 

Getting even stranger: moving a candle flame mentally. Making your image disappear from a mirror (in a darkened room). Fasting?

 

 

Thoughts..

 

Michael

[Taiji Bum]

Maybe a real-time brain scan like a more advanced MRI could discover the meditation black belts from the white belts.

[forestofsouls]

One test I learned from a Goenka retreat was to see how long negative emotions last--- anger, depression, etc. For me, I could go into a negative state that lasted for months. Over time, their duration has gotten much shorter.

 

The problem I see with meditation, unlike with martial arts, is that the effects are subjective and difficult to measure. There are fakirs in India who allegedly hold their arms over their head for years or take a yoga position until birds nest in their hair. But have they really accomplished anything spiritually?

[Mal]

 

What kind of tests, benchmarks or trials make sense?

 

Getting even stranger: moving a candle flame mentally. Making your image disappear from a mirror (in a darkened room).

 

The others sound hard, but I can do those,probably because they are easier than the others, beginner belt

 

The other side of tests is that you get a prize for achieving them........ so ..............................

 

What do I win

[Procurator]

meditation, unlike with martial arts, is that the effects are subjective and difficult to measure.

nothing can be further from the thruth. every genuine system has objective measures. folks who "practice" made-up falsities naturally make no progress and thus have nothing to measure. Hence their amusing belief in subjectivity.

[mYTHmAKER]

I have my brown belt in meditation

[thelerner]

'every genuine system has objective measures'

 

Procurator, thats what the post is about. If you know anyone who has objective measures, preferably that can be done without a master sitting next to you, ask them and report back.

 

 

Thanks

 

Michael

 

In Ki-aikido we would get feedback and tests. You could be pushed, poked and prodded during meditation to test your one pointedness. There were tests on smoothness and length of breath. There was a practice where a partner would watch you intently. At the slightest twitch or 'shadow across the face' would report 'he's lost it.

 

I've been out of it for a while and wonder what solo tests there might be. I'll do the count the 200 breaths tonight to see 1. If I can, 2. How long it takes.

[thelerner]

Bend a candle flame? Cool, tell me more Mal.

Who else works w/ candles? (Taomeow?)

 

 

Michael

[VCraigP]

nothing can be further from the thruth. every genuine system has objective measures. folks who "practice" made-up falsities naturally make no progress and thus have nothing to measure. Hence their amusing belief in subjectivity.

 

 

Curator

 

Why don't you just directly come out and say what you want to.

 

"All of you are weak and simple minded" and "You are all wasting your time." and "my teacher has the only authentic teaching, everything else is stupid and fraudulent."

 

Or, never mind, don't even come out and say it.

 

How about instead you tell us what you want out of your interaction on this forum. YOU have expressed your basic contempt for the "new age" mindset which prevails here (paraphrasing you). Why don't you set us all straight and let your wisdom rain down so we may be enlightened like you.

 

Or, provide a list of what you think are "made up falsities" in order that those of us with merit enough to see your wisdom may avoid such.

 

What are you doing for yourself here?

What are you doing for others?

 

Well if nothing else, perhaps we are providing you with amusement while we entertain ourselves with the "practice" of our "made up falsities".

 

wearily yours

 

Craig

[Procurator]

Why don't you set us all straight and let your wisdom rain down so we may be enlightened like you.

 

 

because it is not in ALL's destiny to be enlightened.

 

 

 

 

What are you doing for yourself here?

What are you doing for others?

 

 

i thought you would never ask.

It is quite simple actually - i am earning my karma brownie points here.

[doc benway]

My $.02 for what it's worth, if anything....

I suppose if we had a steady meditation teacher there might be some sort of bench marks occassionally. But many of us don't have that.

 

What kind of tests, benchmarks or trials make sense?

Absolutely none make sense, the way I look at it. Testing, benchmarks, and trials are the antithesis of meditation. They simply reinforce the sense of self, separation, duality - someone there to meditate. Meditation is about letting that go - the whole concept of self and doing and not-doing, improving, succeeding at meditation, achieving higher rank or skill, and so on.

 

The only test that makes sense to me regarding meditation is to let it go - let go of the attachment to succeeding in meditation. You don't have to quit but rather do it simply because there is nothing "better" to do... Just be.... here... now.... always, minute to minute, day after day. How can you measure, test, or improve that?

 

Anyway, that's where my head is lately...

[mYTHmAKER]

My $.02 for what it's worth, if anything....

 

Absolutely none make sense, the way I look at it. Testing, benchmarks, and trials are the antithesis of meditation. They simply reinforce the sense of self, separation, duality - someone there to meditate. Meditation is about letting that go - the whole concept of self and doing and not-doing, improving, succeeding at meditation, achieving higher rank or skill, and so on.

 

The only test that makes sense to me regarding meditation is to let it go - let go of the attachment to succeeding in meditation. You don't have to quit but rather do it simply because there is nothing "better" to do... Just be.... here... now.... always, minute to minute, day after day. How can you measure, test, or improve that?

 

Anyway, that's where my head is lately...

 

Excellent post. You just earned your meditation Brown Belt

[Mal]

Bend a candle flame? Cool, tell me more Mal.

 

It's just a trick. Stare at a candle flame in a dark room and after enough practice you can make it move. Face changing in a mirror is easier. They were all things I had to do as part of learning visualization.

 

Apart from the practice I don't think they are "useful" as such = just tricks or at the most, roadsigns along the way.

[宁]

hitting a wall with the head until you or the wall gives up

 

cmon man, there are smarter ways today... hell yeah, even an MRI, all sorts of scans...

[Wayfarer64]

hitting a wall with the head until you or the wall gives up

 

cmon man, there are smarter ways today... hell yeah, even an MRI, all sorts of scans...

 

Are we talking about inner-space walls or livingroom walls here?

 

I have crumbled many a wall will my noodle-but they were only in my mind to begin with...

[thelerner]

Ha ha earning karmic brownie points. Procurator, you are helping so many people with your condescension. Brownie points, what you're earning is brown alright.

 

I think curator is whats known as a Royal Student. Normal students have to prove there worth through humility, hard work..Character. The Royal Student earns his way w/ cha-ching. Its an age old accomodation. The Royal Student will rarely ever see or have access to the Master. Its a commercial relationship where the master gets big money and rarely has to see the student. The Royal One gets to have there ego built up because of the connection.

 

Royalty is pretty easy to spot. Whereas normal students grow in wisdom, humility and character, Royalty gets increasingly arrogant, stuck up and elitist. But hey, thats what they've paid for.

 

Please lecture me Royal one. I know you need to earn brown points, condescend on, you've paid for it, right.

 

 

Michael

[Fusion]

Edited December 23, 2007 by Fusion

[Procurator]

Ha ha earning karmic brownie points. Procurator, you are helping so many people with your condescension. Brownie points, what you're earning is brown alright.

 

Please lecture me Royal one. .., condescend on, ..

Michael

scatological allusions in one's speech are a sure sign of a strongly polluted energetical body.

[thelerner]

Thank you your Highness, I'll try to stay away from the scatalogies from now on

Course sometimes what comes out of the butt is cleaner then what comes out of ones mouth. At least with the butt the intention is clear.

 

 

Michael

[Fusion]

I think testing is needed. Best teacher teach their students things they are ready for and capable of doing. How does the teacher determine? First time I read this thread I thought the idea was great. Anyone can join in just like the quiz and have a laugh while doing it and such. Some of could use challenges sometimes its easy to start being irregular with cultivation/self-developments or just need a fresh thrill/motivation. I consider all of these positive things. I was secretly waiting for someone take the bull by the horn with the hope I may get a glimpse of some possibilities. Good post Good person period.

Regards

Edited December 24, 2007 by Fusion

[Wayfarer64]

Procurator you mention an "energetical body"...correct phrase?

 

Energetical \En`er*get"ic*al\, a. [Gr. ?, fr. ? to work, be active, fr. ? active. See Energy.] 1. Having energy or energies; ...

 

What is it you are saying? My physical body has energy but where is my energetical body?-

 

Please explain this concept to me...Is it the spiritual being of light and reason that I hope to manifest or what...?

 

 

And since we all have to shit, (even if we will not all be enlightened) - at least in shit we have common ground to grow from...

 

Nurtured of course with loving respect for each other and our seperate ways to cultivate...

[Procurator]

Procurator you mention an "energetical body"...correct phrase?

 

Energetical \En`er*get"ic*al\, a. [Gr. ?, fr. ? to work, be active, fr. ? active. See Energy.] 1. Having energy or energies; ...

 

What is it you are saying? My physical body has energy but where is my energetical body?-

 

Please explain this concept to me...Is it the spiritual being of light and reason that I hope to manifest or what...?

It is inside your physical body. It is a composite of A. HUN souls + PO souls - these sustain the physical body; and B. Three Corpses - that want the physical body dead.

 

And since we all have to shit, (even if we will not all be enlightened) - at least in shit we have common ground to grow from...

 

Nurtured of course with loving respect for each other and our seperate ways to cultivate...

scatology again - it is the Three Corpses speaking.

[宁]

this dude is something else

 

where do ya'all find them

 

 

dont let them give you... brown stuff, Curator, cure them all, or bust

 

Edited December 24, 2007 by Little1

[thelerner]

Little1, little1, little1. You used the word bust. This is a sign of sexual deviancy and inner impurity. If we've learned nothing else from curator it is that rudeness and arrogance are the way to karmic brownie points.

 

Please correct your verbage in the future, lest its pungency effect his highness negatively.

 

 

M.

[宁]

uhm... bust as in...?

 

i dont get it, where does this pattern come from?

 

...you know what i mean

 

...do you think they have a squirting chanse of learning something, wherever they are?

 

it's the most elementar trap, i graduated that in a couple of months, a long time ago,

 

with the help of a much bitter forum

 

it's still a miserable way to be, somehow i feel some compassion